EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 8249
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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Doodsmack
United States7224 Posts
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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Lmui
Canada6213 Posts
On another note, the model 3 was unveiled yesterday. https://www.tesla.com/presskit#model3 It did hit the 35k target, but the premium package which has a pretty huge amount of "normal" features is a 5k option. You also have to choose between a 220 mile range and 310 mile for 9k, so the true base price for me is going to be ~40k USD with a decision to add almost 20% more for around 40% more range. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On July 30 2017 01:02 Doodsmack wrote: Trump going to sign the sanctions bill apparently. US checks and balances have prevailed. I personally have faith they will prevail against trump on the long run. Which really is a testament to our government, that it can withstand a TV conman being elected by the masses through deception. And the founders did not anticipate the age of TV. don't know if it was mentioned in here but people in Europe, at the least politicians in Germany, aren't really happy about those sanctions because they're claiming that the sanctions aren't coordinated with other nations (read: Germany) and thus would hurt us. So honestly kind of surprised. That could have been a good excuse for Trump to veto it but then again he's probably not getting informed about those things. | ||
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ShoCkeyy
7815 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 29 2017 17:19 Belisarius wrote: If you know that healthy individuals usually have [factor/hormone/small-molecule] within [some range], and that the factor going outside that range is found to cause [undesirable symptom], then yes, you absolutely can correct the situation by applying [some drug] to restore healthy levels of the factor. It does not matter that the drug may be artificially synthesised, so long as it has been shown to be safe, nor does it matter that the person's usual levels may have never been within that range. Now, if you want to argue that there's some specific deficiency in the literature supporting ADHD drugs, then please go ahead. My understanding is that they're fairly sound, if probably overprescribed. However, challenging the general principle - which you seem to be doing - is tinfoil hat territory. A large chunk of modern medicine works in this way, and has produced very clear and repeatable outcomes. the general principle is a complete myth. kind of like greek democracy. yeah originally it might have had some connection to empirical science but it now operates as a free floating conceptual apparatus that had taken on a life of its own, untethered to its origin 10 million people w an adderall prescription and none of them have any data whatsoever on their brain's "dopamine levels." the drug is a behavior modifier not a "restorer of chemical balance." does your kid have trouble concentrating (ie taking orders to sit still and be quiet?)? sounds like he needs a powerful stimulant to get him to shut up and calm down. oh does your kid now have elevated dopamine transporter levels? that's just an upregulation in response to these powerful stimulants we've prescribed. have you noticed a flattening of emotional range? thats normal. just "restoring brain chemistry" with a large dosage of a powerful stimulant fundamentally altering the structures in the brain in an imbalanced and decidely unnatural way. this all came up because a few people here were opposed to fully grown adults being able to get access to less powerful stimulants than amphetamine but when powerful and dangerous stimulants are used as a form of social control by doctors and parents, and increasingly as a "productivity" aid for adults who've been on stimulants their whole life, everything is fine because we can just invoke the story of "restoring natural levels of chemicals in the brain." there are plenty of studies showing improvements in brain cognition and memory in "normal healthy" adults when using low doses of amphetamine. is a "normal" adult taking a therapeutic dose "restoring" anything? when the symptoms are "hyperactivity" and "inability to concentrate" (except on things they find interesting) how do you know we are talking about a quantifiable dopamine range that exceeds by a standard deviation the lower limit? does it raise your eyebrows that similar dopaminergic drugs might be prescribed both for "hyperactivity" and for "apathy" or "depression?" when all you have is a hammer everything looks like a nail. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
of course the drug is a behaviour modifier, the behaviour is a proxy for a problem of chemical imbalance in the brain. This isn't some kind of sinister Illuminati plan to control the world, it's about alleviating symptoms of ADHD patients | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On July 30 2017 03:47 Nyxisto wrote: "social control by doctors and patients?" are you asserting that ADHD treatment is some kind of plot to produce obedient citizens? of course the drug is a behaviour modifier, the behaviour is a proxy for a problem of chemical imbalance in the brain. This isn't some kind of sinister Illuminati plan to control the world, it's about alleviating symptoms of ADHD patients I think in Europe it is generally used as such (alleviating symptoms of ADHD). In the US things are ...probably... slightly different. | ||
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Simberto
Germany11559 Posts
On July 30 2017 03:47 Nyxisto wrote: "social control by doctors and patients?" are you asserting that ADHD treatment is some kind of plot to produce obedient citizens? of course the drug is a behaviour modifier, the behaviour is a proxy for a problem of chemical imbalance in the brain. This isn't some kind of sinister Illuminati plan to control the world, it's about alleviating symptoms of ADHD patients Yes, but this is a complex situation. ADHS is a real disease, which can be treated in a variety of ways. However, there is also a danger of overdiagnosis. ADHS medication also leads to behaviour that is "easier" on the people around the children even when administered to people without the disease. It can become an easy answer for dealing with "unruly" children, making them more docile and more concentrated on what other people think they should be doing. The problem goes both ways. People who actually have ADHS might not be diagnosed because "children are children", and suffer a lot of problems because of their inability to concentrate on a subject. And other children who do not have ADHS might be diagnosed to have it and medicated, simply because their parents can't be bothered to actually deal with them like humans, because people have unreasonable expectations as to how children should behave, and because simply giving them pills makes it easier for everyone else. As far as i know, in all but the most severe cases of ADHS, medication is not the ideal treatment. Behaviour coaching are similarly effective in a lot of cases. (Source: My psychology class on my way to becoming a teacher). But medication is easy to do. Just give the child the pills, and it shuts up, does what you tell it to do, and is concentrated in doing so. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
Point being we seem to have this idea to turn medical issues, especially mental illness into some kind of act of willpower and spin a story around it. There's nothing inherently bad about medical intervention if it is effective and cheap, and we might do more harm than good if we withhold treatment. | ||
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Nevuk
United States16280 Posts
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 30 2017 03:47 Nyxisto wrote: "social control by doctors and patients?" are you asserting that ADHD treatment is some kind of plot to produce obedient citizens? of course the drug is a behaviour modifier, the behaviour is a proxy for a problem of chemical imbalance in the brain. This isn't some kind of sinister Illuminati plan to control the world, it's about alleviating symptoms of ADHD patients social control is of course only possible as a plot at the conspiracy level leashing my dog is a "plot" for human speciesist domination over canines it is a crude proxy and a crude ethics that asserts a "normal behavior" attained through amphetamines as "a normal. rain chemistry" | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21803 Posts
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Dromar
United States2145 Posts
On July 30 2017 04:57 Gorsameth wrote: Just so I got this right, no one knows what bailouts he is talking about right? After the votes failed, McConnell implied that the ACA's continued existence would result in a need to bail out insurance companies. Take that however you will. edit: or maybe that the ACA was itself essentially a bailout for insurance companies. I don't remember it perfectly. But something like that. edit 2: here's the video: www.youtube.com Start at 3:43 for the bailout comment. I don't know how to embed youtube videos. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On July 30 2017 04:57 Gorsameth wrote: Just so I got this right, no one knows what bailouts he is talking about right? nope. but the rantings of a lunatic shouldn't be paid much heed anyways. | ||
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ChristianS
United States3188 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On July 30 2017 04:56 IgnE wrote: social control is of course only possible as a plot at the conspiracy level leashing my dog is a "plot" for human speciesist domination over canines it is a crude proxy and a crude ethics that asserts a "normal behavior" attained through amphetamines as "a normal. rain chemistry" You're not really getting around asserting a 'normal behaviour' either way. If you tolerate ADHD symptomatic you're still setting a norm. Of course when we treat the symptoms of somebody we usually do so with a goal in mind, we want to make that person function better within society. This is not necessarily bad for the person or even coercion or control, if the person in question wants that as well. Whether you do this through a pill, which is fairly direct, or through some other form of therapy is essentially just a question of what interface you use. Again, going with the cheapest and most effective one I wouldn't consider ethically problematic. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9003 Posts
On July 30 2017 05:04 zlefin wrote: nope. but the rantings of a lunatic shouldn't be paid much heed anyways. Until he asserts that all our base are belong to him. | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
On July 30 2017 05:16 Nyxisto wrote: You're not really getting around asserting a 'normal behaviour' either way. If you tolerate ADHD symptomatic you're still setting a norm. Of course when we treat the symptoms of somebody we usually do so with a goal in mind, we want to make that person function better within society. This is not necessarily bad for the person or even coercion or control, if the person in question wants that as well. Whether you do this through a pill, which is fairly direct, or through some other form of therapy is essentially just a question of what interface you use. Again, going with the cheapest and most effective one I wouldn't consider ethically problematic. yeah im sure kids and teens are totally rational consenting agents . . . and what is this fascist logic?: "tolerance of socially aberrant behavior is just a norm too. we might as well enforce sameness for the good of society" | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23314 Posts
On July 30 2017 05:08 ChristianS wrote: For the "bailouts for insurance companies" it's probably the cost sharing payments that are propping up a lot of markets. As for the "bailouts for members of Congress" I have no idea. But it sounds lke he's kinda declaring war on Congress which is weird I mean he could be talking about single-payer of some sort. I do wonder if Trump just said "You know, these Republicans Reps are idiots, I'm just going to do whatever Democrats want to do if they win in 2018" what Democrats would run on Trump signing? | ||
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