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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23192 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:41 Gorsameth wrote: Please educate me, what is your argument and how does it justify the US President (by proxy of his press secretary or his twitter) telling bold faced lies. I believe the technical term is "They started it, nana nana boo-boo" | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:40 oBlade wrote: I enjoy the back and forth between the Fourth Estate, who have their own agenda, and the President, who has his own agenda, and obviously most politicians couldn't hack it themselves. This is why a wing of the culturally dominant/right side of history left, who would never in a million years consider voting Republican, purports to be more accepting of schmucks like Romney and McCain. Because they play nice and by the rules, get crushed -> more results for Democrats. I'm pretty sure you're missing something. there's quite a few members of the left who would consider voting republican, though not as many as I'd like of course. it's more that some people are actually decent, ethical people. and that the truth matters an awful lot to actually solving problems; and people with a lot of expertise can more easily detect problems. | ||
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On_Slaught
United States12190 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:22 xDaunt wrote: Surely there is one poster around here who understands the concept of editorial bias and its relationship to the truth. This press conference was likely foreshadowing the type of intellectual dishonestly we can expect from Trump and some of his supporters going forward. Basically you find one or two stories that are false, or half false, and focus on them. Ignore the thousands of true stories that make you look bad and imply that because a few were false, they all can't be trusted. Ofc this sort of fallacy works on many people, so it can be effective. I mean, they weren't even honest about the ones that supposedly weren't true in this instance. The eye test clearly shows how little people showed up to the Inauguration. So I guess there is an addendum to my above theory. The news doesn't even have to be false for the Trump administration to call it false. Therefore there will always be something to strawman. Genius! | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:41 Gorsameth wrote: Please educate me, what is your argument and how does it justify the US President (by proxy of his press secretary or his twitter) telling bold faced lies. Where have I justified the telling of bold faced lies? That I think that Trump should treat the press as the enemy does not mean that I am advocating for flagrant dishonesty. oBlade gets it. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23192 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:50 xDaunt wrote: Where have I justified the telling of bold faced lies? That I think that Trump should treat the press as the enemy does not mean that I am advocating for flagrant dishonesty. oBlade gets it. But what you're advocating and what Trump is doing are two different things and I think that's the point others are making. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21652 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:50 xDaunt wrote: Where have I justified the telling of bold faced lies? That I think that Trump should treat the press as the enemy does not mean that I am advocating for flagrant dishonesty. oBlade gets it. On January 22 2017 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: But what you're advocating and what Trump is doing are two different things and I think that's the point others are making. Exactly. If the Press is unfair, biased and reporting lies/half truths whatever then correct them. Trump instead turns it into a pissing contest. That is the problem people are having with his statements. And when people point out the bold faced lies and you respond by justify his actions and no comment on how he should not tell bold faced lies people are (rightfully) going to assume you agree with that Trump is doing. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:53 GreenHorizons wrote: But what you're advocating and what Trump is doing are two different things and I think that's the point others are making. Not really. The more accurate way to put it is that while I agree with Trump's goal of antagonizing the press, I disagree with some of his means. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23192 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:58 xDaunt wrote: Not really. The more accurate way to put it is that while I agree with Trump's goal of antagonizing the press, I disagree with some of his means. That's clearer, still intentionally vague, but clearer than your original argument. I'm not sure who (probably a Hillary supporter if anyone) is saying having a confrontational relationship with the press is a bad thing, it's kinda how it's supposed to be. It's the whole, telling outright, plain and obvious lies, having your Press Sec cosign them, and to do it in front of the CIA (like come on) speaks to something more dangerous than any benefit he's grasping at by flailing lies and propaganda at the media. That said, media sucks and I'd wish he wasn't so disconnected from the truth so he could actually be a decent opponent instead of a better liar (to his audience at least). | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
It is fortunate indeed for Trump that he was handed a congress that will do their best to dismantle every office in charge of generating numbers that could make him look bad. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7884 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote: That's clearer, still intentionally vague, but clearer than your original argument. I'm not sure who (probably a Hillary supporter if anyone) is saying having a confrontational relationship with the press is a bad thing, it's kinda how it's supposed to be. It's the whole, telling outright, plain and obvious lies, having your Press Sec cosign them, and to do it in front of the CIA (like come on) speaks to something more dangerous than any benefit he's grasping at by flailing lies and propaganda at the media. That said, media sucks and I'd wish he wasn't so disconnected from the truth so he could actually be a decent opponent instead of a better liar (to his audience at least). I think the press should confront and be hard to politicians, certainly not the other way round, but then again, I did support Hillary. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28649 Posts
On January 22 2017 08:50 xDaunt wrote: Where have I justified the telling of bold faced lies? That I think that Trump should treat the press as the enemy does not mean that I am advocating for flagrant dishonesty. oBlade gets it. Actually this post is pretty much the first time I've seen you even halfassedly criticize him for being flagrantly dishonest, even though it's been his MO for the past 2 years? If you keep defending someone without vocalizing dissent, people are gonna assume you are defending him. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23192 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:09 Biff The Understudy wrote: I think the press should confront and be hard to politicians, certainly not the other way round, but then again, I did support Hillary. Maybe if we had decent press it would make sense for politicians not to fight back, but the media is dominated by hacks. Obama was right to push back against Fox News (and should have done more/better) as Trump's right to push back against the outlets that trash him. Do you actually think politicians shouldn't be hard on the press or were you just reacting on your gut? Also I'd prefer a fight over being asked questions and responding with a non-sequitur and a creepy laugh or just ignoring the questions altogether (like his press sec did). | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
I do hope that the next Democratic candidate catches on that it really does not matter to Republican voters that Trump lives in an alternate reality often built on very little evidence that can be contradicted with a casual Google search. Because it simply doesn't. Granted, there still might be some people who believe he's just a serial liar, rather than deluded, which was a bonus for many who loathe some of his policies but hope he was just paying lip service to them. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:06 GreenHorizons wrote: That's clearer, still intentionally vague, but clearer than your original argument. I'm not sure who (probably a Hillary supporter if anyone) is saying having a confrontational relationship with the press is a bad thing, it's kinda how it's supposed to be. It's the whole, telling outright, plain and obvious lies, having your Press Sec cosign them, and to do it in front of the CIA (like come on) speaks to something more dangerous than any benefit he's grasping at by flailing lies and propaganda at the media. That said, media sucks and I'd wish he wasn't so disconnected from the truth so he could actually be a decent opponent instead of a better liar (to his audience at least). It's not intentionally vague so much as it is as precise as I can be in a vacuum. I've been very clear in this thread regarding my thoughts on "fake news," and I am all in favor of Trump doing things like his clowning of CNN over its piss-gate reporting at that press conference last week. I like that Trump understands that the press is his enemy. I like that Trump knows how to use the press to his political advantage. And I particularly like it when Trump punishes the press for overstepping its bounds as CNN did. To the extent that Trump uses outright lies to promote his assault on the press or any other aspect of his agenda, I'm not in favor that. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:10 Liquid`Drone wrote: Actually this post is pretty much the first time I've seen you even halfassedly criticize him for being flagrantly dishonest, even though it's been his MO for the past 2 years? If you keep defending someone without vocalizing dissent, people are gonna assume you are defending him. People assume way too much. They should just ask. That said, I'll readily admit that because Trump is on my team, I'm not going to as freely comment on his shortcomings as I will for others who are not on the team. But I do provide direct answers when asked. | ||
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GreenHorizons
United States23192 Posts
To the extent that Trump uses outright lies to promote his assault on the press or any other aspect of his agenda, I'm not in favor that. Is there a point where it would it be frequent or egregious enough to be disqualifying? Where roughly would that threshold be for you? | ||
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biology]major
United States2253 Posts
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:27 biology]major wrote: btw, this obsession with crowd size via the press secretary and comments at CIA talk reveal a deep insecurity inside trump's head. Pretty laughable, but I do hate how petty he can be. that they do. and it is rather unfortunate indeed. It's too bad the situation can't be used to improve treatment and employment prospects for those with mental illness; | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On January 22 2017 09:24 GreenHorizons wrote: Is there a point where it would it be frequent or egregious enough to be disqualifying? Where roughly would that threshold be for you? I'd have to think about that one, but I will say that I don't think that Trump is there yet. Most of Trump's lies fall into the puffery category. When he starts defrauding the American people on material issues, then I'll be upset. | ||
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