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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:07:24
November 18 2016 23:05 GMT
#125321
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

White nationalism and white supremacism are parts of some elements of the Alt-Right. However, Breitbart is not an Alt-Right media outlet. Nor is it a white supremacist/nationalist media outlet. The real tip off is that the real white supremacists don't consider Breitbart to be part of the Alt-Right, and they hate some of the folks at Breitbart. The problem is that mainstream media and democrats are casually throwing around labels that they don't even understand. They haven't done their homework, and frankly, they don't care because they thought that they could use the Alt-Right as a massive strawman to take down Trump. Like I discussed at the time, all that they did was piss into the wind.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:30:12
November 18 2016 23:24 GMT
#125322
On November 19 2016 08:05 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

White nationalism and white supremacism are parts of some elements of the Alt-Right. However, Breitbart is not an Alt-Right media outlet. Nor is it a white supremacist/nationalist media outlet. The real tip off is that the real white supremacists don't consider Breitbart to be part of the Alt-Right, and they hate some of the folks at Breitbart. The problem is that mainstream media and democrats are casually throwing around labels that they don't even understand. They haven't done their homework, and frankly, they don't care because they thought that they could use the Alt-Right as a massive strawman to take down Trump. Like I discussed at the time, all that they did was piss into the wind.

"We're the platform for the alt-right"
-- Steve Bannon

Breitbart is one of the most prominent platforms for the alt right -- how the alt right is defined fits the contents of relevant published articles, and of their comment sections, to a T.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oBlade
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States6670 Posts
November 18 2016 23:26 GMT
#125323
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

People seem to memeify Breitbart, which is a news outlet, as like 4chan News Network because of its open comment section, and project what they see there, or even what they just imagine must be there, onto the organization. I'm a little skeptical how many people have actually gone there and just read the news. Like hunts was suggesting earlier they post fake articles and blogs, but in reality they have not much editorializing (later I learned this was one of the design goals in mind) and nothing fake, that's a dangerous delusion.

I encourage everyone to read it on their own, especially those on the left. Not to get converted to Trumpism, but because it's one of the biggest US outlets and most credible besides Fox for what you'd consider the opposition, and with the Trump administration coming, it's going to be here for a while. You want to see for yourself what the opposition is up to and draw your own conclusions. Not call them fake and Scientology-disconnect them. Reading multiple sides of the aisle is just how to stay informed.
"I read it. You know how to read, you ignorant fuck?" - Andy Dufresne
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:30:30
November 18 2016 23:27 GMT
#125324
On November 19 2016 08:24 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 08:05 xDaunt wrote:
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

White nationalism and white supremacism are parts of some elements of the Alt-Right. However, Breitbart is not an Alt-Right media outlet. Nor is it a white supremacist/nationalist media outlet. The real tip off is that the real white supremacists don't consider Breitbart to be part of the Alt-Right, and they hate some of the folks at Breitbart. The problem is that mainstream media and democrats are casually throwing around labels that they don't even understand. They haven't done their homework, and frankly, they don't care because they thought that they could use the Alt-Right as a massive strawman to take down Trump. Like I discussed at the time, all that they did was piss into the wind.

"We're the platform for the alt-right"
-- Steve Bannon

One supposed quote being reported by a Mother Jones reporter is not enough to overcome all of the other statements by Bannon and other Breitbart folks (not to mention the real Alt-Right folks) saying otherwise.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:31:15
November 18 2016 23:29 GMT
#125325
One can claim to be part of the Alt-Right, but one isn't necessarily accepted by all parts of the Alt-Right. I think Breitbart is likely a great example. The white nationalists dislike people like Milo specifically because according to them it's the Jews trying to co-opt the Alt-Right movement- that is white nationalists believe the Jews are getting in front and claiming to be leaders without any true legitimacy. Claims and counter-claims, but one thing we could say is the Alt-Right is not a monolithic group. There are as of yet no true leaders, but many major voices, some of them quite racist, some of them not.
ModeratorWake me up when Trump's term is finished. Slava Ukraini.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12619 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:36:07
November 18 2016 23:33 GMT
#125326
Nvm, I was wrong
No will to live, no wish to die
Blisse
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Canada3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:46:31
November 18 2016 23:37 GMT
#125327
On November 19 2016 08:26 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

People seem to memeify Breitbart, which is a news outlet, as like 4chan News Network because of its open comment section, and project what they see there, or even what they just imagine must be there, onto the organization. I'm a little skeptical how many people have actually gone there and just read the news. Like hunts was suggesting earlier they post fake articles and blogs, but in reality they have not much editorializing (later I learned this was one of the design goals in mind) and nothing fake, that's a dangerous delusion.

I encourage everyone to read it on their own, especially those on the left. Not to get converted to Trumpism, but because it's one of the biggest US outlets and most credible besides Fox for what you'd consider the opposition, and with the Trump administration coming, it's going to be here for a while. You want to see for yourself what the opposition is up to and draw your own conclusions. Not call them fake and Scientology-disconnect them. Reading multiple sides of the aisle is just how to stay informed.


I read the content, it seems fine sometimes as a biased news outlet like Fox or many mainstream ones. However, they also post absurd shit, outright lies. Saying that saying they don't lie and sensationalize is absurd imo.

http://realorsatire.com/breitbart-com/

Honestly, I posted earlier about the NPR podcast episode with a Breitbart editor. He seemed good at heart but you could see him say things to defend Bannon that were very... strange.
There is no one like you in the universe.
RealityIsKing
Profile Joined August 2016
613 Posts
November 18 2016 23:37 GMT
#125328
The Alt Rights are just people that don't like how the Republican Party was operating.

And Trump is the alternative path to become a president instead of the traditional Republican way.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-18 23:41:34
November 18 2016 23:39 GMT
#125329
On November 19 2016 08:27 xDaunt wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 08:24 kwizach wrote:
On November 19 2016 08:05 xDaunt wrote:
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

White nationalism and white supremacism are parts of some elements of the Alt-Right. However, Breitbart is not an Alt-Right media outlet. Nor is it a white supremacist/nationalist media outlet. The real tip off is that the real white supremacists don't consider Breitbart to be part of the Alt-Right, and they hate some of the folks at Breitbart. The problem is that mainstream media and democrats are casually throwing around labels that they don't even understand. They haven't done their homework, and frankly, they don't care because they thought that they could use the Alt-Right as a massive strawman to take down Trump. Like I discussed at the time, all that they did was piss into the wind.

"We're the platform for the alt-right"
-- Steve Bannon

One supposed quote being reported by a Mother Jones reporter is not enough to overcome all of the other statements by Bannon and other Breitbart folks (not to mention the real Alt-Right folks) saying otherwise.

This is interesting -- Bannon's statement on Breitbart being the "platform from the alt-right" has been widely quoted in the media, and I have yet to find a single instance of him denying he said that. What is your evidence that Bannon is denying that Breitbart is a platform for the alt-right, and that the reporter quoting him invented the statement? From what I'm seeing, even the Breitbart editorial staff itself is not denying that Bannon said that Breitbart was the platform for the alt-right. It seems like you are simply wrong.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
Doodsmack
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States7224 Posts
November 18 2016 23:48 GMT
#125330
On November 19 2016 08:26 oBlade wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

in reality they have not much editorializing (later I learned this was one of the design goals in mind)


That's not a very defensible statement. At any given time I can go to their main page and disprove it. Right now, it says "Hateful Harry" right at the top.
Falling
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada11607 Posts
November 18 2016 23:50 GMT
#125331
So largely a disagreement on definite vs indefinite articles. They deny 'premier website', but the original quote says 'the platform'. The reporter believes 'the platform' more or less means premier or the main one as Bannon didn't say 'a platform', as in one platform among many.
ModeratorWake me up when Trump's term is finished. Slava Ukraini.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 18 2016 23:53 GMT
#125332
On November 19 2016 08:39 kwizach wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 08:27 xDaunt wrote:
On November 19 2016 08:24 kwizach wrote:
On November 19 2016 08:05 xDaunt wrote:
On November 19 2016 07:53 Blisse wrote:
Does this boil down to whether Bannon turning Breitbart into an alt-right newsground mean that Bannon is a white nationalist/supremist? How do you distinguish between the alt-right and white nationalism/supremism?

White nationalism and white supremacism are parts of some elements of the Alt-Right. However, Breitbart is not an Alt-Right media outlet. Nor is it a white supremacist/nationalist media outlet. The real tip off is that the real white supremacists don't consider Breitbart to be part of the Alt-Right, and they hate some of the folks at Breitbart. The problem is that mainstream media and democrats are casually throwing around labels that they don't even understand. They haven't done their homework, and frankly, they don't care because they thought that they could use the Alt-Right as a massive strawman to take down Trump. Like I discussed at the time, all that they did was piss into the wind.

"We're the platform for the alt-right"
-- Steve Bannon

One supposed quote being reported by a Mother Jones reporter is not enough to overcome all of the other statements by Bannon and other Breitbart folks (not to mention the real Alt-Right folks) saying otherwise.

This is interesting -- Bannon's statement on Breitbart being the "platform from the alt-right" has been widely quoted in the media, and I have yet to find a single instance of him denying he said that. What is your evidence that Bannon is denying that Breitbart is a platform for the alt-right, and that the reporter quoting him invented the statement? From what I'm seeing, even the Breitbart editorial staff itself is not denying that Bannon said that Breitbart was the platform for the alt-right. It seems like you are simply wrong.

Numerous writers for Breitbart have said it. I have to go find the quotes.
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-19 00:21:33
November 18 2016 23:54 GMT
#125333
On November 19 2016 08:50 Falling wrote:
So largely a disagreement on definite vs indefinite articles. They deny 'premier website', but the original quote says 'the platform'. The reporter believes 'the platform' more or less means premier or the main one as Bannon didn't say 'a platform', as in one platform among many.

Yes, but the point is that the Breitbart editorial staff doesn't deny that Bannon described the site as "the platform for the alt-right". Their sole disagreement with the reporter was over whether this allowed him to call it the "premier" alt-right website.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24492 Posts
November 19 2016 00:07 GMT
#125334
A Baltimore Police officer was sentenced Friday to 12 years in prison in the shooting of an unarmed burglary suspect in East Baltimore.

Wesley Cagle, 47, was found guilty by a jury in August of first-degree assault and a handgun charge for shooting of Michael Johansen in December 2014. Prosecutors said Cagle shot Johansen in the groin as he lay in the doorway of an East Baltimore corner store after two other officers had already shot him.

Cagle was sentenced to 12 years for the assault charge and 5 years for the handgun charge. The sentences are to run concurrently. He was terminated by the department Friday, a police spokesman said.

Cagle had testified that he shot at Johansen because he saw a shiny object that could have been a weapon. But jurors told The Baltimore Sun after the verdict that they did not believe Cagle.


Source

Finally. Hope police realize how big of a problem this can become for them if they don't deal with it now.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
November 19 2016 00:07 GMT
#125335
On November 19 2016 08:37 RealityIsKing wrote:
The Alt Rights are just people that don't like how the Republican Party was operating.

And Trump is the alternative path to become a president instead of the traditional Republican way.

I am far from knowledgeable on the subject, but from what i understand alt-right means far more than just an alternative republican party. It's rooted in white nationalism and has core values in preserving white identity and rejects progressive and multi-cultural influences like gay rights, feminism, SJW's, jews, muslims, and globalism.

Writing this out, I'm not really sure what differentiates them from an organization like the KKK. There's no real consensus on what the alt-right ideology is yet since it's a fairly new thing, so I'm sure others have a different interpretation of it than I do.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
November 19 2016 00:11 GMT
#125336
On November 19 2016 09:07 Tachion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 08:37 RealityIsKing wrote:
The Alt Rights are just people that don't like how the Republican Party was operating.

And Trump is the alternative path to become a president instead of the traditional Republican way.

I am far from knowledgeable on the subject, but from what i understand alt-right means far more than just an alternative republican party. It's rooted in white nationalism and has core values in preserving white identity and rejects progressive and multi-cultural influences like gay rights, feminism, SJW's, jews, muslims, and globalism.

Writing this out, I'm not really sure what differentiates them from an organization like the KKK. There's no real consensus on what the alt-right ideology is yet since it's a fairly new thing, so I'm sure others have a different interpretation of it than I do.

The problem is that there's no hard and fast definition of the Alt-Right. The only definition that really makes sense to me is the extreme one (ie white nationalism), but then people like Milo go out and confuse everything by expanding the definition of the Alt Right while simultaneously denying that he's a member of it.
Nebuchad
Profile Blog Joined December 2012
Switzerland12619 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-19 00:26:00
November 19 2016 00:17 GMT
#125337
So I've had to go and read the Establishment conservative's guide to the alt-right, thx guys...

"The media empire of the modern-day alternative right coalesced around Richard Spencer during his editorship of Taki’s Magazine. In 2010, Spencer founded AlternativeRight.com, which would become a center of alt-right thought."

This part, listed under intellectuals (of the alt-right), highlights an element that they present as crucial to the development of the alt-right, the foundation of AlternativeRight.com by Richard Spencer. Richard Spencer who in my echo chamber has been described in unsavory terms, advocating among other things, for the sterilization of other races. This didn't appear in the breitbart article though. Nor did I find out that Spencer has literally organized an event in collaboration with a neonazi group at UC Berkeley.

What did appear, though, under the "1488ers": a repudiation of basically nazis, the "true racists", followed by:

"Based on our research we believe this stands in stark contrast with the rest of the alt-right, who focus more on building communities and lifestyles based around their values than plotting violent revolution."

So my initial question is: are we allowed to criticize those intellectuals of the alt-right, and following that, their characterization as contrasting starkly with true racists?
No will to live, no wish to die
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14220 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-19 00:30:23
November 19 2016 00:18 GMT
#125338
On November 19 2016 09:07 Tachion wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 08:37 RealityIsKing wrote:
The Alt Rights are just people that don't like how the Republican Party was operating.

And Trump is the alternative path to become a president instead of the traditional Republican way.

I am far from knowledgeable on the subject, but from what i understand alt-right means far more than just an alternative republican party. It's rooted in white nationalism and has core values in preserving white identity and rejects progressive and multi-cultural influences like gay rights, feminism, SJW's, jews, muslims, and globalism.

Writing this out, I'm not really sure what differentiates them from an organization like the KKK. There's no real consensus on what the alt-right ideology is yet since it's a fairly new thing, so I'm sure others have a different interpretation of it than I do.

Do you understand how you poison the debate and dismiss any possibility of a decent argument when you talk like this. First you state that you don't know much or understand much about the alt right (I don't think anyone can really say that they know for sure what the alt right is) and then you go into saying its sexist and racist and nothing different then the KKK.

I mean where do people go from there other then simply stating "no you're ignorant thats not true". You can't tell yourself that you're the better side when you act as bad if not worse then the side you disagree with. You should be asking questions about specific points of the alt right and general trends you see with it that you argue is various names for bad. Otherwise whats the point?
On November 19 2016 09:17 Nebuchad wrote:
So I've had to go and read the Establishment conservative's guide to the alt-right, thx guys...

"The media empire of the modern-day alternative right coalesced around Richard Spencer during his editorship of Taki’s Magazine. In 2010, Spencer founded AlternativeRight.com, which would become a center of alt-right thought."

This part, listed under intellectuals (of the alt-right), highlights an element that they present as crucial to the development of the alt-right, the foundation of AlternativeRight.com by Richard Spencer. Richard Spencer who in my echo chamber has been described in unsavory terms, advocating among other things, for the sterilization of other races. This didn't appear in the breitbart article though.

What did appear, though, under the "1488ers": basically a repudiation of nazis, followed by:

"Based on our research we believe this stands in stark contrast with the rest of the alt-right, who focus more on building communities and lifestyles based around their values than plotting violent revolution."

So my initial question is: are we allowed to criticize those intellectuals of the alt-right, and following that, their characterization as contrasting starkly with true racists?

This is exactly the oppisite of your post and legitimatly contributes to the thread in a real way.

And to Nebuchad, Yes as they should and everyone should equally, once we can do that for the nazies to the LGBT equally we will all be equal.

The problem comes when you generalize and put in a basket the entire moment for the basis of those few people. You can do that to people who are in the KKK and who support the KKK because they're an explicit organization while the "alt-right" is an abstract movement of conservatives that don't associate with the establishment organizations.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-11-19 00:28:15
November 19 2016 00:27 GMT
#125339
I don't understand anything about Scientology either but I still know that it's bogus, this hardly constitutes an argument. Movements like the alt-right are obscure by design. Like this whole pick up artist stuff they use insider terminology and so on to create some kind of bizzare world where they're knowledgeable and everybody else just isn't an insider. It's no accident that the whole "men's rights" movement overlaps so strongly with the alt-right. It's usually people who fall out of the formal education system and seek an alternative career.
Tachion
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Canada8573 Posts
November 19 2016 00:29 GMT
#125340
On November 19 2016 09:18 Sermokala wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 19 2016 09:07 Tachion wrote:
On November 19 2016 08:37 RealityIsKing wrote:
The Alt Rights are just people that don't like how the Republican Party was operating.

And Trump is the alternative path to become a president instead of the traditional Republican way.

I am far from knowledgeable on the subject, but from what i understand alt-right means far more than just an alternative republican party. It's rooted in white nationalism and has core values in preserving white identity and rejects progressive and multi-cultural influences like gay rights, feminism, SJW's, jews, muslims, and globalism.

Writing this out, I'm not really sure what differentiates them from an organization like the KKK. There's no real consensus on what the alt-right ideology is yet since it's a fairly new thing, so I'm sure others have a different interpretation of it than I do.

Do you understand how you poison the debate and dismiss any possibility of a decent argument when you talk like this. First you state that you don't know much or understand much about the alt right (I don't think anyone can really say that they know for sure what the alt right is) and then you go into saying its sexist and racist and nothing different then the KKK.

I mean where do people go from there other then simply stating "no you're ignorant thats not true". You can't tell yourself that you're the better side when you act as bad if not worse then the side you disagree with. You should be asking questions about specific points of the alt right and general trends you see with it that you argue is various names for bad. Otherwise whats the point?

I was very implicit in stating that my take on the subject was rather primitive. My views are not set in stone, this is only how I've come to understand the subject thus far. If you think I'm wrong somewhere, say so. It seems like you're offended that I've interpreted it differently than you.
i was driving down the road this november eve and spotted a hitchhiker walking down the street. i pulled over and saw that it was only a tree. i uprooted it and put it in my trunk. do trees like marshmallow peeps? cause that's all i have and will have.
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