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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 01 2016 02:41 GMT
#92021
To those who support Hillary as a candidate who will "hold the line" on progressive social issues, I have a question for you. Say she does a really botched job as president, something akin to Bush. This would likely fracture the Democratic base and set the goals of the progressive movements back a decade. Do you think this is a risk worth considering when trying to make a "vote for the lesser of two evils" argument? If the representative of the progressive movement is bad and undermines the cause, isn't that worse than 1-2 terms for the opposition?
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
August 01 2016 02:47 GMT
#92022
Supreme court is potentially going to be screwed up for decades, so I don't think one or two terms are that much of an issue
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-01 02:49:11
August 01 2016 02:48 GMT
#92023
That's a dumb hell as argument even by internet standards. Candidate you're aligned with might screw up and set back the issues x years, better vote in the complete opposite direction. Dae accelerationism?!?!?!
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-01 03:01:24
August 01 2016 02:57 GMT
#92024
On August 01 2016 10:20 Vin{MBL} wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2016 09:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On August 01 2016 08:24 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
How are people complaining of an offshore site 40 miles out in the ocean?

The deep waters off the coast of California could become home to the country’s largest offshore wind energy project and a test case for a technology that is still in its infancy.

The 765-megawatt project, proposed by Seattle-based Trident Winds, would sit about 25 miles off California’s central coast, near the town of Cambria. If built, it will be larger than the 630-megawatt London Array off the coast of Kent, – the world’s largest working offshore wind farm that began operating in 2013.

The Trident project, which could power more than 200,000 homes, reflects an interest by the US to embrace offshore wind energy as part of a broader strategy to develop low-carbon electricity sources. The country has no offshore wind farms, though a number of projects are in the research phase to determine their profitability. The very first project to come online in the US is under construction off the coast of Rhode Island: the 30-megawatt Block Island wind farm that is expected to begin operating later this year.

Offshore wind development already has taken off in Europe and other parts of the world. The UK, for example, has installed more than 5 gigawatts of offshore wind power plants, meeting 10% of its total energy demand.

“It’s just another very valuable resource that not only will be benefiting energy generation, but will create a new industry in the state of California,” says Alla Weinstein, CEO of Trident Winds.

Trident is proposing an unprecedented project in a state that has frowned on coastal energy development ever since a 1969 blowout at an offshore oil drilling platform near Santa Barbara, which released more than 3m gallons of crude oil into the waters. The resulting images of soiled beaches and oily seabirds were splashed around the world and helped launch the modern environmental movement.

Recent attempts to build machines to harness the power of ocean currents off the state’s coast also drowned in failure as they ran into technical and financial problems and protests from local communities.

California has some of the world’s toughest coastal development regulations. The state’s first large seawater desalination project, for example, took more than six years to win government approval and survived 14 lawsuits before construction started.


Source


Because wind turbines in the ocean are a complete unknown in terms of environmental impact. We simply don't know how the sound effects the marine life and what long term effects it will have on that ecosystem.


Well there's only one way to find out what the effects are... Surely it is safer for marine life than offshore oil drilling with the US does an insane amount of.


There is a pretty significant amount of wind turbines in Scandinavian (?) European countries so we don't really need to test it ourselves. I did some research on this back in university, but that was awhile ago so my memory is hazy on it. Sure it might be better than oil, but it could also kill entire species of sea life and we wouldn't know until after it happens.

We already know sonar has been detrimental to whales for instance so it isn't some outlandish thing to think about.
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-01 03:00:16
August 01 2016 02:59 GMT
#92025
Bush level mess up is almost impossible. We would need to have a massive terrorist attack on our soil, attack the wrong country and allow the largest banks in the US to burn the economy at both ends for that to happen.

We have had "Meh" presidents before. Clinton could be one of those. Trump is a living nightmare,
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Nevuk
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States16280 Posts
August 01 2016 03:02 GMT
#92026
On August 01 2016 11:41 LegalLord wrote:
To those who support Hillary as a candidate who will "hold the line" on progressive social issues, I have a question for you. Say she does a really botched job as president, something akin to Bush. This would likely fracture the Democratic base and set the goals of the progressive movements back a decade. Do you think this is a risk worth considering when trying to make a "vote for the lesser of two evils" argument? If the representative of the progressive movement is bad and undermines the cause, isn't that worse than 1-2 terms for the opposition?

If the republican party didn't end under GW Bush then the democratic party isn't going to end under Clinton...
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 01 2016 03:30 GMT
#92027
WASHINGTON ― Both Donald Trump and his campaign chairman said Sunday they had nothing to do with altering the Republican Party’s position on Ukraine ― which must have been news to GOP leaders who confirmed last week that Trump’s campaign insisted on exactly that change.

The modified party platform drops its call to provide arms to Ukraine in response to Russia’s occupation of that country’s Crimea province in 2014. It represents a victory for Russian president Vladimir Putin, who soon after annexed the region.

Two Republican National Committee officials acknowledged privately last week that Trump’s campaign pushed for the change, which was made in platform committee meetings in the days prior to the start of the Republican convention in Cleveland two weeks ago.

Nevertheless, the celebrity businessman told ABC News on Sunday that he didn’t even know about the change until afterward.

“I wasn’t involved in that. Honestly, I was not involved,” Trump said.

Meanwhile, his top aide, Paul Manafort ― who for a decade was an adviser to the Russian-backed president of Ukraine until he was removed from office in 2014 ― similarly told NBC News that the new wording was not his idea. “It absolutely did not come from the Trump campaign,” he said.

Neither the Trump campaign nor the Republican National Committee responded to requests for comment Sunday. But last week, two RNC officials praised Trump for not pushing the party’s conservative grassroots activists to alter language on gay marriage or abortion. They said that, apart from the Ukraine change, Trump’s campaign seemed generally uninterested in the platform altogether.

The platform does not bind Republican candidates who win office and is often seen by political professionals as creating unnecessary vulnerabilities for the party. Still, the RNC officials said it was unusual but not surprising that the Ukraine plank was the only thing of concern to the Trump camp, given Manafort’s business ties to the country’s former president, Victor Yanukovych.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 01 2016 03:36 GMT
#92028
On August 01 2016 12:02 Nevuk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2016 11:41 LegalLord wrote:
To those who support Hillary as a candidate who will "hold the line" on progressive social issues, I have a question for you. Say she does a really botched job as president, something akin to Bush. This would likely fracture the Democratic base and set the goals of the progressive movements back a decade. Do you think this is a risk worth considering when trying to make a "vote for the lesser of two evils" argument? If the representative of the progressive movement is bad and undermines the cause, isn't that worse than 1-2 terms for the opposition?

If the republican party didn't end under GW Bush then the democratic party isn't going to end under Clinton...

Republican party hasn't been able to push its presidential candidates with any success for the past 3 elections, and you'd be a fool not to think the major reason isn't Bush. They've pushed themselves into a corner where they need to embrace their radical elements just to stay politically relevant through midterm victories.

I wouldn't say that the party isn't in trouble. It would be worse for the Dems too because particularly ideologically "principled" Dems don't vote like Republicans do.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
August 01 2016 03:42 GMT
#92029
On August 01 2016 11:41 LegalLord wrote:
To those who support Hillary as a candidate who will "hold the line" on progressive social issues, I have a question for you. Say she does a really botched job as president, something akin to Bush. This would likely fracture the Democratic base and set the goals of the progressive movements back a decade. Do you think this is a risk worth considering when trying to make a "vote for the lesser of two evils" argument? If the representative of the progressive movement is bad and undermines the cause, isn't that worse than 1-2 terms for the opposition?

Even assuming that she can manage a Bush level failure, the odds of that are lower than a Trump administration working with Republican state level governments to pass substantial voter suppression, accepted by a Supreme Court containing Trump's appointees, which sees Republicans get a lock on the federal government. See for reference the handful of so-called voter id laws that were blocked recently across the country.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 01 2016 03:51 GMT
#92030
On August 01 2016 12:42 Kyadytim wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 01 2016 11:41 LegalLord wrote:
To those who support Hillary as a candidate who will "hold the line" on progressive social issues, I have a question for you. Say she does a really botched job as president, something akin to Bush. This would likely fracture the Democratic base and set the goals of the progressive movements back a decade. Do you think this is a risk worth considering when trying to make a "vote for the lesser of two evils" argument? If the representative of the progressive movement is bad and undermines the cause, isn't that worse than 1-2 terms for the opposition?

Even assuming that she can manage a Bush level failure, the odds of that are lower than a Trump administration working with Republican state level governments to pass substantial voter suppression, accepted by a Supreme Court containing Trump's appointees, which sees Republicans get a lock on the federal government. See for reference the handful of so-called voter id laws that were blocked recently across the country.

That's a reasonable stance and I'd say I broadly agree: the biggest danger is Trump working with the Republican party and working to further their agenda. Though I wonder if that's the main reason that others have for that "lesser of two evils" argument.

Hillary has also been known to work with the Republican Party on some shitty issues, including trade and FP adventurism. It's unfortunate that Hillary is a Republican in the issues that the Republicans are bad at, and not in those which it is actually pretty reasonable and more correct than not.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 01 2016 04:03 GMT
#92031
A wildfire on the central California coast has burned more than 38,000 acres and could continue throughout August. Already, the Soberanes fire has destroyed at least 60 homes, and one man died when a bulldozer he was driving near the fire line rolled over on steep terrain.

Pfeiffer Big Sur State Park and seven other state parks and outdoor attractions nearby are closed until further notice because of smoke, fire danger and closed roads. The summer months are usually the high season for tourists visiting the region's rugged coastline.

The California Parks Service has also instituted emergency rules for water use in the area. The state is entering its fifth year of drought.

Since the Soberanes fire began nine days ago, it has grown rapidly. Last week, as temperatures soared into the 90s and dry, windy weather fanned the flames, the fire tore through thousands of acres of chaparral in the Los Padres National Forest.

On Saturday, slightly cooler weather and overnight fog slowed the fire somewhat, according to CalFire, the state agency in charge of fighting wildfires. CalFire says 350 people have been evacuated to the nearby town of Carmel from areas east and south of the fire. On Sunday, additional evacuation warnings were announced for residents in the nearby communities of Cachagua and Tassajara, Calif.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Savant
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States379 Posts
August 01 2016 04:18 GMT
#92032
I think the current political alignment needs to be scrapped and redrawn. If Trump wins, there's hope the GOP ditches the fundies and the free-market fetishists and reorients around the working class. I get that Trump is nuts, but a Clinton presidency is a guarantee of outdated neo-liberal elitist policies run by someone with legendary poor judgment and none of Obama's charisma and discernment. She also loves war more than any candidate of the whole race (compensating for something perhaps?).

I'm just sayin' a 4-year Trump term (if we survive) might be the best case scenario here.
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 01 2016 04:27 GMT
#92033
If the Republican party were to realign into something more resembling Trump's platform - a worker's party that is dovish in FP and conservative, though not ridiculously backwards, on social issues - then I could see myself voting Republican. Right now, the Republican party is a mix of the wealthy, warhawks, and radical conservatism, a platform I cannot support at all.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23221 Posts
August 01 2016 05:35 GMT
#92034
CLEVELAND, Ohio – Nina Turner, the Democratic former state senator from Cleveland who has emerged as a rallying figure for Bernie Sanders' disappointed supporters, said she is considering an offer to run for vice president on the Green Party's national ticket.

Massachusetts physician Jill Stein, the party's presumptive presidential nominee, reached out with the pitch, Turner told cleveland.com Sunday evening in a telephone interview.


Source

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
MasterCynical
Profile Joined September 2012
505 Posts
August 01 2016 06:06 GMT
#92035
This is incredible. The entire US media is working to take down trump. I've never seen anything like this.
On_Slaught
Profile Joined August 2008
United States12190 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-01 06:13:32
August 01 2016 06:12 GMT
#92036
Well cosidering the way he treats them, coupled with his threats to effectively limit the press if he is president, you can almost justify their genral contempt for the wannabe tyrant.
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States13925 Posts
August 01 2016 06:12 GMT
#92037
On August 01 2016 15:06 MasterCynical wrote:
This is incredible. The entire US media is working to take down trump. I've never seen anything like this.

Meh the Us media is the reason why he got the nomination in the first place. Live by the sword die by the sword.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4748 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-08-01 06:14:44
August 01 2016 06:13 GMT
#92038
The media works to bring down every GOP candidate. But Trump is new in that he is providing more and better ammunition than has ever been given before.

And their coverage does change from primary to general. This was true for Trump, true for Romney, true for McCain, etc.
"It is therefore only at the birth of a society that one can be completely logical in the laws. When you see a people enjoying this advantage, do not hasten to conclude that it is wise; think rather that it is young." -Alexis de Tocqueville
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States42655 Posts
August 01 2016 06:17 GMT
#92039
On August 01 2016 13:18 Savant wrote:
I think the current political alignment needs to be scrapped and redrawn. If Trump wins, there's hope the GOP ditches the fundies and the free-market fetishists and reorients around the working class. I get that Trump is nuts, but a Clinton presidency is a guarantee of outdated neo-liberal elitist policies run by someone with legendary poor judgment and none of Obama's charisma and discernment. She also loves war more than any candidate of the whole race (compensating for something perhaps?).

I'm just sayin' a 4-year Trump term (if we survive) might be the best case scenario here.

Except if you've seen Trump's tax plan (one of the few policy areas he actually issued something concrete on) you'd know that it would devastate the working poor. Thousands of dollar in tax cuts for the rich for every dollar in tax cuts for the poor etc. He's angling for the working poor vote but he's got no plan to represent their interests.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
LegalLord
Profile Blog Joined April 2013
United Kingdom13775 Posts
August 01 2016 06:18 GMT
#92040
On August 01 2016 15:06 MasterCynical wrote:
This is incredible. The entire US media is working to take down trump. I've never seen anything like this.

Any specific context for this statement or is it more a general statement on the issue?

Trump is certainly an expert on using the media for his gain, that's for sure. It hasn't been a week and people already forgot about the Dem convention and are back to talking about Trump.
History will sooner or later sweep the European Union away without mercy.
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