• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 17:47
CEST 23:47
KST 06:47
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Code S Season 2 - RO4 & Finals Results (2025)10Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy4Code S RO8 Preview: herO, Zoun, Bunny, Classic7Code S RO8 Preview: Rogue, GuMiho, Solar, Maru3
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 9-15): herO doubles on GSL week0Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer12Classic & herO RO8 Interviews: "I think it’s time to teach [Rogue] a lesson."2Rogue & GuMiho RO8 interviews: "Lifting that trophy would be a testament to all I’ve had to overcome over the years and how far I’ve come on this journey.8Code S RO8 Results + RO4 Bracket (2025 Season 2)14
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game Rogue EWC 2025 Hype Video! Code S Season 2 - RO4 & Finals Results (2025) Rain's Behind the Scenes Storytime Firefly suspended by EWC, replaced by Lancer
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series SOOPer7s Showmatches 2025 SOOP Starcraft Global #22 $3,500 WardiTV European League 2025 [GSL 2025] Code S: Season 2 - Semi Finals & Finals
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers [G] Darkgrid Layout
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 478 Instant Karma Mutation # 477 Slow and Steady Mutation # 476 Charnel House Mutation # 475 Hard Target
Brood War
General
ASL20 Preliminary Maps BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Recent recommended BW games FlaSh Witnesses SCV Pull Off the Impossible vs Shu
Tourneys
[BSL20] GosuLeague RO16 - Tue & Wed 20:00+CET [BSL20] ProLeague Bracket Stage - WB Finals & LBR3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL 2v2] ProLeague Season 3 - Friday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do. [G] How to get started on ladder as a new Z player
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile Beyond All Reason What do you want from future RTS games?
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Vanilla Mini Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread UK Politics Mega-thread Echoes of Revolution and Separation
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Korean Music Discussion [Manga] One Piece
Sports
NHL Playoffs 2024 2024 - 2025 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
A Better Routine For Progame…
TrAiDoS
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Heero Yuy & the Tax…
KrillinFromwales
I was completely wrong ab…
jameswatts
Need Your Help/Advice
Glider
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 31515 users

US Politics Mega-thread - Page 3485

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 3483 3484 3485 3486 3487 10093 Next
Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
March 29 2016 00:27 GMT
#69681
which calculators give me the lie algebra to a given group?
kwizach
Profile Joined June 2011
3658 Posts
March 29 2016 00:28 GMT
#69682
A pretty interesting poll, showing Hillary has the most enthusiastic voters in the Democratic primary, and Trump has the most enthusiastic voters in the Republican primary: link.
"Oedipus ruined a great sex life by asking too many questions." -- Stephen Colbert
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 29 2016 00:30 GMT
#69683
On March 29 2016 09:28 kwizach wrote:
A pretty interesting poll, showing Hillary has the most enthusiastic voters in the Democratic primary, and Trump has the most enthusiastic voters in the Republican primary: link.

is the sandernista movement reflecting the structure of the che t-shirt movement?
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 29 2016 00:31 GMT
#69684
On March 29 2016 09:18 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Justice Department is abandoning its bid to force Apple to help it unlock the iPhone used by one of the shooters in the San Bernardino terrorist attack because investigators have found a way in without the tech giant’s assistance, prosecutors wrote in a court filing Monday.

In a three-sentence filing, prosecutors wrote they had “now successfully accessed the data” stored on Syed Rizwan Farook’s iPhone, and they consequently no longer needed Apple’s court-ordered help getting in. The stunning move averts a courtroom showdown pitting Apple and privacy interests against the government and security concerns that many in the tech community had warned might set dangerous precedents.

It is unclear how, precisely, investigators got into the phone, or what FBI agents learned about the San Bernardino plot from the materials they were able to review. On the eve of a hearing in the case last week, the FBI had signaled it might have found a way into Farook’s device, writing in a court filing that “an outside party demonstrated to the FBI a possible method.” But government officials said they wanted to test that method further before employing it in Farook’s case, and they did not offer details about who proposed it or how it would work.

The Justice Department declined to comment on Monday. Apple said it was still formulating a response to the news and had no immediate comment.

The government will now be left to decide whether it will outline the method to Apple in keeping with a little-known process in which federal officials are supposed to consider disclosing security vulnerabilities they find.

Michael Daniel, special assistant to the president and cybersecurity coordinator, wrote in a White House blog post published in April 2014, that “disclosing vulnerabilities usually makes sense,” given how much people rely on the Internet and connected devices.

“But there are legitimate pros and cons to the decision to disclose, and the trade-offs between prompt disclosure and withholding knowledge of some vulnerabilities for a limited time can have significant consequences,” Daniel wrote. “Disclosing a vulnerability can mean that we forego an opportunity to collect crucial intelligence that could thwart a terrorist attack stop the theft of our nation’s intellectual property, or even discover more dangerous vulnerabilities that are being used by hackers or other adversaries to exploit our networks.”


FBI has accessed San Bernardino shooter’s phone without Apple’s help
mossad stronk
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
March 29 2016 00:33 GMT
#69685
On March 29 2016 09:27 puerk wrote:
which calculators give me the lie algebra to a given group?

i know you're making a joke, but this misses the mark because the topic of conversation is which maths are necessary for everyone to learn

lie algebra is exactly the stuff some people are arguing shouldnt ever be considered necessary curriculum
posting on liquid sites in current year
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain17959 Posts
March 29 2016 00:35 GMT
#69686
On March 29 2016 09:28 kwizach wrote:
A pretty interesting poll, showing Hillary has the most enthusiastic voters in the Democratic primary, and Trump has the most enthusiastic voters in the Republican primary: link.

Talking about shoddy statistics. Here's another leading reason. You can do all the significance testing you like, but if your data comes from meaningless nonsense, you just end up with statistically significant nonsense.

There is so much wrong with that poll (or at least with the conclusions they are trying to draw from it)...
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
March 29 2016 00:36 GMT
#69687
On March 29 2016 09:27 puerk wrote:
which calculators give me the lie algebra to a given group?


I'm pretty sure the TI-1000, special liquid metal edition, can do that.
Freeeeeeedom
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
March 29 2016 00:45 GMT
#69688
there is no optimum amount of "math" to learn... its all interconnected and if you build walls answers get stupid (for example in kindergarten/elementary where there are only whole numbers and dividing by a nondivisor is forbidden, then no roots of negative numbers etc.pp)
i think it is important (and this is where algebra comes into play) to teach that math is about consistency, not about some one telling you how and what to do. Set up a system of axioms, test them, and get what can be inferred from it. Set up other sets of axioms and show how they are inconsistent and explain that way why "not everything goes" but creativity and problem solving is still important, and not everything is settled.

for me a big issue with maths education seems to be that students get tought old methods and consider it a rigid and uninteresting chore to get through, with very little individuality when it is one of the most expressive sciences (you cant decide electrons to have a 2/3 charge, or 2i+sqrt(Pi) charge, as you basically observe nature) but in math you can make up your rules, if they work, and discover the implications of those rules....

students should get to learn those aspects, as it will teach critical thinking, provide a more motivating and identifiable approach to maths and it is a good introduction to the advanced concepts needed in IT, Big Data, Knowledge Discovery, Science and Statistics in general and even Logic and Philosophy aswell
m4ini
Profile Joined February 2014
4215 Posts
March 29 2016 00:45 GMT
#69689
On March 29 2016 09:18 farvacola wrote:
Show nested quote +
The Justice Department is abandoning its bid to force Apple to help it unlock the iPhone used by one of the shooters in the San Bernardino terrorist attack because investigators have found a way in without the tech giant’s assistance, prosecutors wrote in a court filing Monday.

In a three-sentence filing, prosecutors wrote they had “now successfully accessed the data” stored on Syed Rizwan Farook’s iPhone, and they consequently no longer needed Apple’s court-ordered help getting in. The stunning move averts a courtroom showdown pitting Apple and privacy interests against the government and security concerns that many in the tech community had warned might set dangerous precedents.

It is unclear how, precisely, investigators got into the phone, or what FBI agents learned about the San Bernardino plot from the materials they were able to review. On the eve of a hearing in the case last week, the FBI had signaled it might have found a way into Farook’s device, writing in a court filing that “an outside party demonstrated to the FBI a possible method.” But government officials said they wanted to test that method further before employing it in Farook’s case, and they did not offer details about who proposed it or how it would work.

The Justice Department declined to comment on Monday. Apple said it was still formulating a response to the news and had no immediate comment.

The government will now be left to decide whether it will outline the method to Apple in keeping with a little-known process in which federal officials are supposed to consider disclosing security vulnerabilities they find.

Michael Daniel, special assistant to the president and cybersecurity coordinator, wrote in a White House blog post published in April 2014, that “disclosing vulnerabilities usually makes sense,” given how much people rely on the Internet and connected devices.

“But there are legitimate pros and cons to the decision to disclose, and the trade-offs between prompt disclosure and withholding knowledge of some vulnerabilities for a limited time can have significant consequences,” Daniel wrote. “Disclosing a vulnerability can mean that we forego an opportunity to collect crucial intelligence that could thwart a terrorist attack stop the theft of our nation’s intellectual property, or even discover more dangerous vulnerabilities that are being used by hackers or other adversaries to exploit our networks.”


FBI has accessed San Bernardino shooter’s phone without Apple’s help


As if that wasn't clear right from the start.

It was never about unlocking that phone. It was about getting a backdoor into apple phones. Which they still have not - i bet they just have found a way to brute force their way into the phone. Which is completely fine. What they wanted from Apple was entirely different though.

The stunning move averts a courtroom showdown pitting Apple and privacy interests against the government and security concerns that many in the tech community had warned might set dangerous precedents.


That's the important bit. They knew they wouldn't get it. If that courtroom would've ruled in favor of Apple (and that's not unlikely considering the stunt they tried was unconstitutional in the first place), they would've lost the ability to exert force/pressure on tech companies forever.
On track to MA1950A.
Blitzkrieg0
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States13132 Posts
March 29 2016 00:52 GMT
#69690
On March 29 2016 09:21 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 09:15 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 29 2016 09:10 ZeaL. wrote:
How can anyone think that statistics can be taught without algebra? What are they going to spend the whole year on, mean/mode/std dev? Without some level of algebra they'll never get past basic shit like t-tests. Not to mention that a decent amount of stats relies on calculus.

Algebra is such a fundamental aspect of anything quantitative it would be crazy to not teach it. The problem is most people think it's a bunch of useless letters and numbers and never learn enough to apply it at a meaningful level... and that too many people are taught algebra when they're unable to figure out things like fractions.


Because a calculator allows you to skip any algebra you might encounter.


Yes, and Microsoft Word and the internet allows you to have perfect spelling and perfect recall of all of geography and any historical event you are being tested on. Yet, those classes still exist.


Yes, but we should rethink what we're teaching. You don't want students to be able to spell a specific word or remember the date of something that they can easily google despite this being a possible outcome. For geography and historical events you're teaching that student culture and hopefully developing their understanding of perspectives that he or she is not typically exposed to.

Most people keep citing that algebra isn't useful, but it teaches people reasoning so why not teach that instead?
I'll always be your shadow and veil your eyes from states of ain soph aur.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44137 Posts
March 29 2016 00:56 GMT
#69691
On March 29 2016 07:07 Krikkitone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 06:23 Mohdoo wrote:
If you only teach kids "what matters" and "what excites them", they will never learn discipline. No matter what you do for a living, there is stuff that you hate and stuff you don't enjoy at all. You still need to get it done. Kids SHOULD be learning "useless" stuff and becoming well rounded. If nothing else, if only for the experience of learning something you don't care about.


Why should you teach kids stuff that doesn't matter...that is incredibly stupid.

If humans reached the age of adulthood at 180 instead of 18 and had IQ equivalents of 1000 instead of 100, then it might be worthwhile teaching them something pointless for the sake of discipline.

There is plenty of stuff that "matters" that will not excite them for teaching discipline.
Teach them rhetoric and propaganda, teach them statistics and scientific method, etc.

Teach them algebra if the only jobs that exist are STEM jobs... or if they want those jobs.

If you want them to think critically, don't teach them algebra with critical thinking as a side effect, teach them critical thinking.
If you need something to teach them critical thinking with, teach it to them with statistics and rhetoric something all members of a modern society will deal with.


"What matters" is subjective. Learning the foundational skills for a variety of subjects allows students to delve deeper in the subjects that resonate the most with them (i.e., as they graduate high school/ decide on a job or college major). Learning a little bit of everything makes you a well-rounded individual.

On March 29 2016 07:07 Krikkitone wrote:
Algebra is not required for thinking critically about numbers. And I would disagree that this is 'trying to make better workdrones'. Algebra is likely only to be used as part of your work droning, unless you do math for fun. Other things are far more likely to be of universal use.

Of course the bigger problem is not that algebra is not the ideal ninth grade math class in preparing well rounded citizens.
The bigger problem is the students are failing algebra, because they didn't get proper preparation in arithmetic earlier (they would fail a ninth grade statistics course as well... at least if it was any good)

The problem isn't really that students are failing ninth grade algebra, its that they are "passing" third, fourth, fifth, etc. grade math while actually failing it.


I agree with you that algebra is not required for critical thinking in all cases regarding numbers, but there's certainly plenty of overlap (if algebra is taught correctly)! I also agree with you that pushing students through grades when they don't have a solid understanding of prerequisite math knowledge is a huge issue.

On March 29 2016 07:20 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 07:03 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
On March 29 2016 06:00 cLutZ wrote:
Sometimes, you forget how insane people really are: Kids are failing, so lets lower standards!

NEW YORK (AP) — Who needs algebra?

That question muttered by many a frustrated student over the years has become a vigorous debate among American educators, sparked by a provocative new book that argues required algebra has become an unnecessary stumbling block that forces millions to drop out of high school or college.

"One out of 5 young Americans does not graduate from high school. This is one of the worst records in the developed world. Why? The chief academic reason is they failed ninth-grade algebra," said political scientist Andrew Hacker, author of "The Math Myth and Other STEM Delusions."

Hacker, a professor emeritus at Queens College, argues that, at most, only 5 percent of jobs make use of algebra and other advanced math courses. He favors a curriculum that focuses more on statistics and basic numbers sense and less on (y - 3)2 = 4y - 12.

"Will algebra help you understand the federal budget?" he asked.

Many U.S. educators, including the architects of the Common Core standards, disagree, saying math just needs to be taught more effectively. It's fine for students to have quantitative skills, they say, but algebra is important, too.

"Every study I've ever seen of workers in whole bunches of fields shows that you have to understand formulas, you have to understand relationships," said Philip Uri Treisman, a professor of mathematics and of public affairs at the University of Texas. "Algebra is the tool for consolidating your knowledge of arithmetic."

Bill McCallum, a professor at the University of Arizona who played a lead role in developing the Common Core standards for math, said he would oppose any division of K-12 students into an algebra track and a non-algebra track.

"You might say only a certain percentage of kids will go on to use algebra, but we don't know which kids those are," he said.

In New York City, home to the nation's largest public school system with 1.1 million pupils, just 52 percent of the students who took last year's statewide Regents test in Algebra I passed, mirroring statistics elsewhere in the country.

Rather than scaling back on algebra, New York City educators have announced an "Algebra for All" initiative that aims to keep students on track by providing specialized math teachers in fifth grade, before algebra is introduced.

"We believe in high standards," said Carol Mosesson-Teig, director of mathematics for the city Department of Education. "And we believe that the best way to serve the students is to strengthen the instruction."

Eighteen-year-old Isaiah Aristy took the algebra Regents test twice and failed it both times.

Aristy, now a freshman at the Borough of Manhattan Community College who is hoping for a career in law enforcement, said he was good at math until he hit algebra.

"When it came to x and y and graphing, that's when I started dropping, and it made me feel low," he said. "But we don't need to learn what x and y is. When in life are we going to write on paper, 'X and y needs to be this?'"

Like millions of community college students across the U.S., Aristy must pass a remedial math class with no college credit, and then pass at least one college-level math class, if he wants to get an associate's degree.

But Aristy isn't just repeating Algebra I again. BMCC is one of about 50 community colleges in 14 state that offer an alternative track called Quantway, developed by the Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching, that seeks to develop quantitative literacy.

"It includes some basic algebra concepts, but you don't learn how to factor polynomials or solve complex equations," said math department Chairman Fred Peskoff.

Project director Karon Klipple said the foundation devised Quantway and a statistics track called Statway in 2011 because of the sheer numbers of students dropping out of community college due to algebra. Sixty to 80 percent of community college students nationwide test into remedial math, and most don't pass it, she said.

"This is where their hopes and aspirations go to die," Klipple said. "They're in college to try to make a better life for themselves, and they're stopped by mathematics."


I've read a lot of Andrew Hacker and his views on mathematics education, and he's just basically 30 years behind our current understanding of math education. Focusing on quantitative reasoning instead of only content is something we've been explicitly focusing more and more on over the past three decades. Heck, even the ACT and SAT have that part right! So he's not wrong, but his ideas aren't radical or revolutionary either. Rumor has it he's also working on a new gaming console called the SNES...


Ha. The think that gets me is that all the "thinkers" who want to change math never seem to find fault with comparatively more "useless" parts of curriculum like spelling tests or drawing a family tree of the Greek Pantheon. It seems to me that there are just a lot of people who write these things that just sucked at math, so obviously it must be bad!


Yeah, Andrew Hacker would be a lot more interesting and credible in education/ math education if he had any relevant degrees or research to speak of. He doesn't.
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
oneofthem
Profile Blog Joined November 2005
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
March 29 2016 00:56 GMT
#69692
the curriculum change hasn't been shown to be that impactful. what's really meaningful is basically how much time the kid puts into it.
We have fed the heart on fantasies, the heart's grown brutal from the fare, more substance in our enmities than in our love
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
March 29 2016 01:00 GMT
#69693
On March 29 2016 09:36 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 09:27 puerk wrote:
which calculators give me the lie algebra to a given group?


I'm pretty sure the TI-1000, special liquid metal edition, can do that.


the reason the ti 83 costs so much? R&D budget
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19573 Posts
March 29 2016 01:01 GMT
#69694
On March 29 2016 09:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 09:21 cLutZ wrote:
On March 29 2016 09:15 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:
On March 29 2016 09:10 ZeaL. wrote:
How can anyone think that statistics can be taught without algebra? What are they going to spend the whole year on, mean/mode/std dev? Without some level of algebra they'll never get past basic shit like t-tests. Not to mention that a decent amount of stats relies on calculus.

Algebra is such a fundamental aspect of anything quantitative it would be crazy to not teach it. The problem is most people think it's a bunch of useless letters and numbers and never learn enough to apply it at a meaningful level... and that too many people are taught algebra when they're unable to figure out things like fractions.


Because a calculator allows you to skip any algebra you might encounter.


Yes, and Microsoft Word and the internet allows you to have perfect spelling and perfect recall of all of geography and any historical event you are being tested on. Yet, those classes still exist.


Yes, but we should rethink what we're teaching. You don't want students to be able to spell a specific word or remember the date of something that they can easily google despite this being a possible outcome. For geography and historical events you're teaching that student culture and hopefully developing their understanding of perspectives that he or she is not typically exposed to.

Most people keep citing that algebra isn't useful, but it teaches people reasoning so why not teach that instead?


Because: 1) Its not simply reasoning, its an entirely different (important) mental muscle to develop; 2) Teachers don't know how to teach reasoning without indoctrinating (they certainly can't teach History or Literature without trying to do that); and 3) If its anything like algebra kids will struggle and fail anyways (after all, that is the freaking point!).
Freeeeeeedom
ZeaL.
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
United States5955 Posts
March 29 2016 01:01 GMT
#69695
On March 29 2016 09:45 puerk wrote:
for me a big issue with maths education seems to be that students get tought old methods and consider it a rigid and uninteresting chore to get through, with very little individuality when it is one of the most expressive sciences (you cant decide electrons to have a 2/3 charge, or 2i+sqrt(Pi) charge, as you basically observe nature) but in math you can make up your rules, if they work, and discover the implications of those rules....



Unfortunately learning math is like learning a new language. There's boring syntax you have to learn before you can write poetry. Not sure if there's any way around that.
puerk
Profile Joined February 2015
Germany855 Posts
March 29 2016 01:14 GMT
#69696
On March 29 2016 10:01 ZeaL. wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 09:45 puerk wrote:
for me a big issue with maths education seems to be that students get tought old methods and consider it a rigid and uninteresting chore to get through, with very little individuality when it is one of the most expressive sciences (you cant decide electrons to have a 2/3 charge, or 2i+sqrt(Pi) charge, as you basically observe nature) but in math you can make up your rules, if they work, and discover the implications of those rules....



Unfortunately learning math is like learning a new language. There's boring syntax you have to learn before you can write poetry. Not sure if there's any way around that.

i agree, just bring in variables and some concept of a function of a variable earlier, when the mind is still more flexible...

its so hard to unlearn stuff from lower school classes to fix the "i expect a number in my problem what to do with this funky g(h(x)) thingy?"-attitude
Atreides
Profile Joined October 2010
United States2393 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-29 01:22:52
March 29 2016 01:17 GMT
#69697
I think the overriding issue here is kind of being missed. Math happens to be kind of the gatekeeper in American education and so people get up in arms about it. If it was a different discipline people would be trying to remove that. There is this huge problem where people don't realize that for "finishing high school" or a diploma to mean anything at all you necessarily have to deny it to some people.

If you aren't going to, then just don't pretend graduating means anything at all and judge students based on standardized test scores or something else.

Edit: I mean we are talking 9th grade algebra here. Good maths students usually take 3 more years of further math while in high school. The standards are pretty low. On the one hand people campaign about how the us has fallen behind in student performance on standardized tests etc etc on the other hand they want to remove algebra as a primary education requirement? My head hurts.
DarkPlasmaBall
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States44137 Posts
March 29 2016 01:26 GMT
#69698
On March 29 2016 07:33 Mohdoo wrote:
Krikkitone, you should be asking how we can teach our children more, not less. The immense societal impacts of strong educational standards is well documented. A population that is well educated benefits in so many ways, regardless of if some of the skills go unused. The process of learning, in itself, is valuable to the human brain. The same is also true for learning a variety of topics. It's really just not asking that much for someone to come out of highschool with a strong understanding of algebra.


Very true Of course, we want to make sure that every subject taught is still of high quality, and that we aren't favoring quantity over substance!

On March 29 2016 08:19 Atreides wrote:
On the subject of teaching math I 100% agree with whoever said the problem isn't high school math at all. Most high school teachers have math degrees and an appreciation for math and try to pass that on. The problem is that many elementary school teachers hate math, think it doesn't make sense, and pass that on.

I had to TA a "mathematics for elementary school teachers" class for a semester and it scared the hell out of me. Were doomed in that regard.

I also find the notion of switching to statistics humorous. While the argument can definitely be made that it's more relevant. You would get people screaming bloody murder and vastly higher failure rates trying to teach 9th grade statistics.

Man dealing with x and y is the first exposure to arbitrary unknowns. How can you think that people who can't handle that will deal with the sets and operations in basic statistics.


The biggest issue with elementary education is that elementary school teachers have the difficult task of teaching all subjects and the impossible task of being passionate about every single one of them. Even if the elementary school teachers can compute (and even explain!) basic math problems, analyze basic history events, and remember all the rules of grammar and writing and reading comprehension, those teachers (like everyone else) will naturally favor some subjects over the others, and a teacher's enthusiasm (or lack thereof) can very well be contagious and affect students. If a teacher hates teaching math or thinks it's pointless- regardless of whether or not she can do it- she's going to be less effective in the long run than a capable teacher who loves math.

On March 29 2016 08:21 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 29 2016 08:19 Atreides wrote:
On the subject of teaching math I 100% agree with whoever said the problem isn't high school math at all. Most high school have math degrees and an appreciation for math and try to pass that on. The problem is that many elementary school teachers hate math, think it doesn't make sense, and pass that on.

I had to TA a "mathematics for elementary school teachers" class for a semester and it scared the hell out of me. Were doomed in that regard.

i wouldn't generalize

you may be right to some degree, but it's hard to tell how much it contributes without more quantitative data on elementary school math instruction

a lot of the time, math-phobia is passed on directly from parents who don't respect math


Definitely also true. Every back-to-school night, when parents swamp me with a ton of crazy questions and comments, there are always a few who say dismissive things like "I wasn't good at math and my husband/ wife wasn't good at math, so I don't expect my child to like math or be good at math... my child just isn't a math person" and I'll basically say (the politically correct and tactful version of) "No. You don't get to assume your kid is going to fail my class even before they start. What motivation will they have to succeed if their parents tell them it's acceptable to fail or not care? What drive will they have to continue the amazing conversations and hard work that I see in my classes if they go home to an environment that doesn't foster a love of learning and inquiry? I'm sorry, but I don't accept that your child "just isn't a math person"; I wouldn't be much of a math educator if I did."
"There is nothing more satisfying than looking at a crowd of people and helping them get what I love." ~Day[9] Daily #100
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15574 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-29 01:35:07
March 29 2016 01:31 GMT
#69699
On March 29 2016 08:19 Atreides wrote:
On the subject of teaching math I 100% agree with whoever said the problem isn't high school math at all. Most high school teachers have math degrees and an appreciation for math and try to pass that on. The problem is that many elementary school teachers hate math, think it doesn't make sense, and pass that on.


I think people lose track of how utterly terrible elementary school teachers education is. They seriously know nothing. They are essentially babysitters who also convey some ideas.

edit: Not to say they need to be able to prove diff eq solutions. I've just met some teachers whose understanding of math essentially ends with the most advanced thing they teach their students.
SpiritoftheTunA
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States20903 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-29 01:35:26
March 29 2016 01:32 GMT
#69700
all my public school elementary teachers were quite good and helped my math skills develop far faster than average (my mathematician dad helped of course too)...

but my parents took school district into big account every time for the numerous times we moved (i went to 4 different elementary schools, 2 in michigan, 2 in california)

i know its an anecdote but its not like im exactly arguing against a well-cited point

EDIT: ok that was kind of a lie my 2nd grade teacher was pretty stupid and worthless (or maybe i just had personal beef for reasons...)
posting on liquid sites in current year
Prev 1 3483 3484 3485 3486 3487 10093 Next
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL: GosuLeague
19:00
Semi Finals
Hejek vs Aeternum
Semih vs TousaN
ZZZero.O98
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 746
Nina 224
Livibee 144
NoRegreT_ 50
StarCraft: Brood War
ZZZero.O 94
MaD[AoV]22
yabsab 19
Dota 2
capcasts97
League of Legends
Dendi1092
KnowMe22
Counter-Strike
flusha663
Heroes of the Storm
Liquid`Hasu662
Khaldor215
Other Games
C9.Mang0604
Mew2King145
ViBE139
Trikslyr60
ProTech58
Sick57
Organizations
Other Games
BasetradeTV20
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 22 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• davetesta56
• Hupsaiya 27
• musti20045 25
• sooper7s
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• intothetv
• IndyKCrew
• Kozan
StarCraft: Brood War
• Eskiya23 24
• blackmanpl 19
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• masondota21381
• Ler95
League of Legends
• Doublelift3099
• TFBlade1484
Counter-Strike
• Shiphtur255
Other Games
• imaqtpie1630
• Scarra844
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
2h 13m
The PondCast
12h 13m
RSL Revival
12h 13m
Harstem vs SHIN
Solar vs Cham
WardiTV Invitational
14h 13m
ByuN vs Reynor
Clem vs MaxPax
OSC
14h 43m
Replay Cast
1d 2h
RSL Revival
1d 12h
Reynor vs Scarlett
ShoWTimE vs Classic
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 17h
SOOP
2 days
Cure vs Zoun
SC Evo League
2 days
[ Show More ]
Road to EWC
2 days
SOOP Global
2 days
Future vs MaNa
Harstem vs Cham
Circuito Brasileiro de…
2 days
BSL: ProLeague
2 days
Sziky vs JDConan
Cross vs MadiNho
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sparkling Tuna Cup
3 days
Road to EWC
3 days
BSL: ProLeague
3 days
UltrA vs TBD
Dewalt vs TBD
Online Event
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #3 - GSC
2025 GSL S2
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
BSL Season 20
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
NPSL S3
Rose Open S1
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025
YaLLa Compass Qatar 2025
PGL Bucharest 2025

Upcoming

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
Esports World Cup 2025
HSC XXVII
Championship of Russia 2025
BLAST Open Fall 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.