EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3486
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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please. In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44136 Posts
On March 29 2016 09:10 ZeaL. wrote: How can anyone think that statistics can be taught without algebra? What are they going to spend the whole year on, mean/mode/std dev? Without some level of algebra they'll never get past basic shit like t-tests. Not to mention that a decent amount of stats relies on calculus. Algebra is such a fundamental aspect of anything quantitative it would be crazy to not teach it. The problem is most people think it's a bunch of useless letters and numbers and never learn enough to apply it at a meaningful level... and that too many people are taught algebra when they're unable to figure out things like fractions. Agreed. Even reading and using the formula for standard deviation requires an understanding of algebra! Algebra is definitely the foundation for all higher level mathematics, and even though high school statistics isn't necessarily as mathematically rigorous as calculus, there's certainly no way to avoid computations when it comes to a basic comprehension of statistics. On March 29 2016 09:15 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Because a calculator allows you to skip any algebra you might encounter. Any good statistics teacher would make sure you understand the mathematics/ algebra/ computations that's going on before telling you to simply plug-and-chug. I teach both high school and college statistics, and I force my students to grind out a bunch of obnoxiously long computations first, before they earn the right to use graphing calculator buttons (if at all). And even when they can use a calculator as a supplement, it's okay because by then the basic arithmetic is just a stepping stone for a higher computational or conceptual objective, so they'll still get something out of good statistics problems that incorporate a calculator but doesn't have the solution spit out for them. They can say "the calculator says r = .9" all they want, but if they can't interpret a correlation coefficient, they're screwed. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44136 Posts
On March 29 2016 10:01 ZeaL. wrote: Unfortunately learning math is like learning a new language. There's boring syntax you have to learn before you can write poetry. Not sure if there's any way around that. Well to be fair, math is the language of the universe  On March 29 2016 10:17 Atreides wrote: I think the overriding issue here is kind of being missed. Math happens to be kind of the gatekeeper in American education and so people get up in arms about it. If it was a different discipline people would be trying to remove that. There is this huge problem where people don't realize that for "finishing high school" or a diploma to mean anything at all you necessarily have to deny it to some people. If you aren't going to, then just don't pretend graduating means anything at all and judge students based on standardized test scores or something else. Edit: I mean we are talking 9th grade algebra here. Good maths students usually take 3 more years of further math while in high school. The standards are pretty low. On the one hand people campaign about how the us has fallen behind in student performance on standardized tests etc etc on the other hand they want to remove algebra as a primary education requirement? My head hurts. I don't think there is a particularly large number of math educators/ educational researchers who want to remove algebra from the curriculum, but we definitely can improve math education (and the solution is not to have more standardized tests). Every once in a while, you see a random person like Andrew Hacker give his amateurish two cents, but there are far more relevant and interesting conversations about secondary math education that actually occur regularly  For example: are we putting too much emphasis on the STEM fields in our schools, and would the world actually end if we put statistics in the formal math curriculum instead of some parts of precalculus/ calculus? Statistics is generally not a part of the standard math curriculum (algebra, geometry, algebra 2, precalculus, calculus), yet is far more applicable in most contexts and future jobs than precalculus/ calculus is (unless you're going into some STEM fields... but they still require statistics anyway!). Which are more important for more people: understanding the fundamentals of data analysis, probability, and statistics, or understanding trigonometry, imaginary numbers, and limits? For what it's worth, statistics is the only math class I've ever taught where I don't get "When are we ever going to need this in real life?" every single semester... in fact, zero of my statistics students have ever asked me that question. Keep some basic precalculus and calculus, and certainly offer higher level math in high school for those who are super-accelerated and know they want to pursue calculus/ STEM fields, but make statistics the mandatory math class, not precalculus. Related (and hilarious) : + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/T1nFigN.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/oaBh5fN.jpg) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/YWxnvDa.jpg) | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On March 29 2016 10:51 oneofthem wrote: there's some numbers on u.s. split up into groups. asian americans are sort of decent compared to asian asians. like our lol imports  | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44136 Posts
On March 29 2016 10:42 ticklishmusic wrote: Also have to point out that other nations kick our asses in math, so it's not a standards issue-- we just generally need to step up our game Unfortunately, that's easier said than done | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States23097 Posts
I think we all agree we need to do better as a nation, but I think the problem isn't what we teach (at least regarding math) but how we teach it and how we use it to control access to other information. We know babies develop different skills at different times (walking, talking, not pooping on themselves, etc...) but then they hit ~4 and we're like "well they all need to perform the same specific and often superficial tasks at the same speed and quality or they are failing". It's pretty dumb imo. Put another way, think for a moment if something critical for humanity but outside your comfort zone was also required. Like lets say in order to graduate you had to prove the same mastery of social interactions as the math related ones. If the world were filled with Nikola Teslas and Bob Bunsons we would have one generation of geniuses and then ants would rule the planet. Math is important, but so is the rest of being human. We shouldn't punish students who struggle in math by depriving them access to other important information, just like it wouldn't make sense to stop people who are good at math from learning more about it because they can't get laid. Random political question: What's the difference between campaigning "like a Brooklynite" and "like a Senator from New York"? | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
my parents told me i asked to go back to diapers soon after i started talking cuz i said it was more convenient alright i know that wasnt super relevant the mathies will always want to preach math anyone else read that popular essay that went around, lockhart's lament? https://www.maa.org/external_archive/devlin/LockhartsLament.pdf it really rouses your idealistic cockles regarding teaching math | ||
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IgnE
United States7681 Posts
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Souma
2nd Worst City in CA8938 Posts
Now I don't even recognize the stuff being taught to elementary kids. 4evercalculator | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
If a kid is more mechanically inclined see if his interest lies in this area, if he's logical try this, and steer kids towards where there interests and strengths lie. The current system takes a kid that works well with his hands and is mechanically gifted but doesn't have any interest in high level math, well he must be a dipshit! He didn't fit our mold! Maybe his brilliance lies elsewhere. Maybe he'd be a spectacular plumber! But since we never showed him options and tried to develop interests and skills he thinks he's an idiot, he thinks plumbing is a loser job to be looked down on, manual labor is for poor people. He has to go to college or he'll be looked down upon, that is the only path to winning life. Or we can use school to cultivate him, hone his skills, teach him different techniques and more specialized learning, teach him he isn't dumb to be proud of his natural talents. Show him he could be a fantastic plumber, and he'll end up making more than the vast majority of his schoolmates so there's nothing to look down on. Hasn't most of the civilized world learned this already? Aren't students in Europe broken down more and there's different schools for differently gifted kids? Makes no sense why we in America insist on smashing every single square peg through a round hole. But I think no matter what shape the peg is it needs some baseline education. I also think that needs more approaches. I could never ever ever ever ever memorize multiplication tables. I took tutoring for it, still couldn't do it. 25 years later I'd finally get diagnosed with severe ADHD, cool makes sense now. But the fact of the matter is the old fashioned way of doing math I couldn't grasp and never ever would, that style would have a 0% success rate for me till the day I die. I did however end up being decent at math! Not the super crazy high level stuff but I took AP physics and loved it and I could do basically all the math in my head but I could never show my work. I obviously wasn't dumb and I got to the answer, but I felt stupid and I'd get marked down because I wasn't doing things the way old fashioned math teachers wanted it done. Eventually I'd find out apparently I was doing things the "common core" (OOOOOOO BOOGEYMAN!) way in my head. I'd devised my own way to get to the answer that made sense to me. It didn't require memorizing multiplication tables, it just required tweaking a few things to make it easier for me. The point is that even on a subject as cut and dry as math, it's not cut and dry at all. What works for one kid might not work at all for the next. Neither kid is stupid, just one way might make great sense for one and not the other. If I wasn't treated and meant to feel like an idiot that would have probably been more helpful lol. If you showed me when I was a kid there was another way of doing things maybe I have more of an interest in math sooner, who knows what changes. It's possible that that kid doesn't hate math at all, you've just been teaching him wrong. Maybe it turns out he fucking LOVES math. But we keep going for the same approach when there are multiple approaches to take for some reason. | ||
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SpiritoftheTunA
United States20903 Posts
there will always be a tension between the elite and the working class there will alwyas be things the elites are actually detrimental for rather than beneficial for due to their natural biases and blindspots | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
The high-profile public and legal dispute between the government and Apple is officially over after the FBI managed to unlock the iPhone used by one of the San Bernardino terrorists without Apple's help. The Justice Department says it has successfully retrieved the data from the phone and is asking the court to vacate its order for Apple's assistance. "Our decision to conclude the litigation was based solely on the fact that, with the recent assistance of a third party, we are now able to unlock that iPhone without compromising any information on the phone," U.S. Attorney Eileen M. Decker said in a statement, adding that the investigation will continue to ensure that all of the evidence related to this terrorist attack is collected. The government is not saying exactly what data were found on the phone. DOJ spokeswoman Melanie Newman says the FBI is currently reviewing the information on the phone, consistent with standard investigatory procedures. This means it took FBI experts about a week to test the third-party tool that allowed them to crack the iPhone passcode. For weeks, the FBI had said only Apple could help investigators lift the iPhone security features that stood in the way of its guessing the passcode. But last week, the government said a third party showed the FBI a new method that didn't require Apple's help. Source | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On March 29 2016 12:13 OuchyDathurts wrote: Some basic level needs to be met on the fundamental subjects. Where that line is drawn is up for debate but math is important for everyone to have a baseline grasp on as well as English and History and so on. I think our education system is wildly out of date and doesn't cater to anyone. It just tries to shove every kid into the same mold and was never going to work. If a kid is more mechanically inclined see if his interest lies in this area, if he's logical try this, and steer kids towards where there interests and strengths lie. The current system takes a kid that works well with his hands and is mechanically gifted but doesn't have any interest in high level math, well he must be a dipshit! He didn't fit our mold! Maybe his brilliance lies elsewhere. Maybe he'd be a spectacular plumber! But since we never showed him options and tried to develop interests and skills he thinks he's an idiot, he thinks plumbing is a loser job to be looked down on, manual labor is for poor people. He has to go to college or he'll be looked down upon, that is the only path to winning life. Or we can use school to cultivate him, hone his skills, teach him different techniques and more specialized learning, teach him he isn't dumb to be proud of his natural talents. Show him he could be a fantastic plumber, and he'll end up making more than the vast majority of his schoolmates so there's nothing to look down on. Hasn't most of the civilized world learned this already? Aren't students in Europe broken down more and there's different schools for differently gifted kids? Makes no sense why we in America insist on smashing every single square peg through a round hole. But I think no matter what shape the peg is it needs some baseline education. I also think that needs more approaches. I could never ever ever ever ever memorize multiplication tables. I took tutoring for it, still couldn't do it. 25 years later I'd finally get diagnosed with severe ADHD, cool makes sense now. But the fact of the matter is the old fashioned way of doing math I couldn't grasp and never ever would, that style would have a 0% success rate for me till the day I die. I did however end up being decent at math! Not the super crazy high level stuff but I took AP physics and loved it and I could do basically all the math in my head but I could never show my work. I obviously wasn't dumb and I got to the answer, but I felt stupid and I'd get marked down because I wasn't doing things the way old fashioned math teachers wanted it done. Eventually I'd find out apparently I was doing things the "common core" (OOOOOOO BOOGEYMAN!) way in my head. I'd devised my own way to get to the answer that made sense to me. It didn't require memorizing multiplication tables, it just required tweaking a few things to make it easier for me. The point is that even on a subject as cut and dry as math, it's not cut and dry at all. What works for one kid might not work at all for the next. Neither kid is stupid, just one way might make great sense for one and not the other. If I wasn't treated and meant to feel like an idiot that would have probably been more helpful lol. If you showed me when I was a kid there was another way of doing things maybe I have more of an interest in math sooner, who knows what changes. It's possible that that kid doesn't hate math at all, you've just been teaching him wrong. Maybe it turns out he fucking LOVES math. But we keep going for the same approach when there are multiple approaches to take for some reason. The basic TLDR of why this isn't done in America is that inevitably there will be accusations of racism. There was a set of plaintiffs that sued Michigan, accusing them of racism, because they banned racial preferences in admissions at state schools. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44136 Posts
On March 29 2016 12:19 cLutZ wrote: The basic TLDR of why this isn't done in America is that inevitably there will be accusations of racism. There was a set of plaintiffs that sued Michigan, accusing them of racism, because they banned racial preferences in admissions at state schools. I don't understand what your reply has to do with ODh's post. And to ODh, your suggestions have a lot of merit and make a lot of sense... which is exactly why public schools in America have been doing them for decades. There is tracking, IB/ AP vs. Honors vs. regular vs. conceptual for those who learn at different paces, and many topics (especially in math) are taught using multiple strategies and representations in hopes that at least one method resonates with each student because it's well known that not every student learns the same way. Some recent educational research buzzwords include "differentiated instruction" and "integrated learning" and "collaborating learning environments", all of which give a nod to multiple paths of learning and success and having conversations over possible ways to learn better, as opposed to just the "everyone being told exactly how to learn, the same way for all students/ square peg round hole" fear. While there is a serious focus on making college affordable for everyone, most politicians will purposely say "we should make college affordable and possible for everyone who wants to go", because we know that sometimes vocations or military or a job straight out of high school makes sense for some people. | ||
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Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
On March 29 2016 09:52 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Yes, but we should rethink what we're teaching. You don't want students to be able to spell a specific word or remember the date of something that they can easily google despite this being a possible outcome. For geography and historical events you're teaching that student culture and hopefully developing their understanding of perspectives that he or she is not typically exposed to. Most people keep citing that algebra isn't useful, but it teaches people reasoning so why not teach that instead? It fucking blows my mind that people can say "algebra isn't useful". I actually can't think of a world in which I wasn't able to do Algebra, and my job isn't math-heavy at all. | ||
KwarK
United States42482 Posts
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