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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Trumpet
Profile Blog Joined October 2007
United States1936 Posts
August 26 2015 18:51 GMT
#44781
Feels like a good time to chime in that the whole "educate your way out of poverty" more or less hasn't worked. Didnt we get most the "absent fathers" nonsense out of our system when Rand Paul was blaming it for Baltimore's problems?

http://www.npr.org/2015/08/17/432619090/study-finds-education-does-not-close-racial-wealth-gap
http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/06/02/karl-alexander-long-shadow-research
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
August 26 2015 18:54 GMT
#44782
Not really. The opinion that it's not worth letting a few fuckups ruin guns for everyone is defensible. I disagree with it but gun culture has never really been a huge part of my background so being told I can't do sport shooting or hunting anymore isn't really an issue to me. If a few dumb fucks abused video games and some people who didn't play video games suggested banning them for the common good I'd likely be pissed off.

There's nothing wrong with the opinion that a bunch of preventable deaths is worth it.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
misirlou
Profile Joined June 2010
Portugal3319 Posts
August 26 2015 18:57 GMT
#44783
I think it's amazing people can blame the shooting on race or mental illness. There are racist comments thrown around everyday in the world and mentally ill people live everywhere. Unless you want to make a point that americans are more racist and/or african americans are more violent than afro-europeans and/or americans have a statistically significant higher % of population affected mental illness, you have to face the things that are indeed different on your country.
cLutZ
Profile Joined November 2010
United States19574 Posts
August 26 2015 18:58 GMT
#44784
On August 27 2015 03:51 Trumpet wrote:
Feels like a good time to chime in that the whole "educate your way out of poverty" more or less hasn't worked. Didnt we get most the "absent fathers" nonsense out of our system when Rand Paul was blaming it for Baltimore's problems?

http://www.npr.org/2015/08/17/432619090/study-finds-education-does-not-close-racial-wealth-gap
http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/06/02/karl-alexander-long-shadow-research


More of an indictment of schooling and its inability to narrow gaps between different parts of the population. Also, it should go without saying that a white male that does not make it to college is not the same as a black male given the decades of affirmative action. We have research on the "mismatch" effect, but there is no reason to think that doesn't also apply to people who never go to college.
Freeeeeeedom
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44440 Posts
August 26 2015 19:04 GMT
#44785
On August 27 2015 03:57 misirlou wrote:
I think it's amazing people can blame the shooting on race or mental illness. There are racist comments thrown around everyday in the world and mentally ill people live everywhere. Unless you want to make a point that americans are more racist and/or african americans are more violent than afro-europeans and/or americans have a statistically significant higher % of population affected mental illness, you have to face the things that are indeed different on your country.

Mental illness is a difficult term. Obviously someone so narcissistic that they felt murdering two people was a justifiable and logical response does not think like you and I. And someone who then turned the gun on themselves has something seriously mentally wrong. So I have no issue with the conclusion that they had fucked up dysfunctional thinking which led them to act in a "crazy" way. What they did was "crazy". They chose to do it. Therefore they were "crazy".

Where it gets difficult is when we conclude that the problem is mental illness and ordinary people living with disabilities get branded as a dangerous "other" who could attack at any moment.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 19:08:29
August 26 2015 19:08 GMT
#44786
On August 27 2015 03:58 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 03:51 Trumpet wrote:
Feels like a good time to chime in that the whole "educate your way out of poverty" more or less hasn't worked. Didnt we get most the "absent fathers" nonsense out of our system when Rand Paul was blaming it for Baltimore's problems?

http://www.npr.org/2015/08/17/432619090/study-finds-education-does-not-close-racial-wealth-gap
http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/06/02/karl-alexander-long-shadow-research


More of an indictment of schooling and its inability to narrow gaps between different parts of the population. Also, it should go without saying that a white male that does not make it to college is not the same as a black male given the decades of affirmative action. We have research on the "mismatch" effect, but there is no reason to think that doesn't also apply to people who never go to college.


Or its an indictment of the population not caring about the education a blank or Hispanic person has because racism continues to be a problem. If you read the interview, it shows that both groups were targeted by bad loans and other debt.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
misirlou
Profile Joined June 2010
Portugal3319 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 19:17:12
August 26 2015 19:15 GMT
#44787
On August 27 2015 04:04 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 03:57 misirlou wrote:
I think it's amazing people can blame the shooting on race or mental illness. There are racist comments thrown around everyday in the world and mentally ill people live everywhere. Unless you want to make a point that americans are more racist and/or african americans are more violent than afro-europeans and/or americans have a statistically significant higher % of population affected mental illness, you have to face the things that are indeed different on your country.

Mental illness is a difficult term. Obviously someone so narcissistic that they felt murdering two people was a justifiable and logical response does not think like you and I. And someone who then turned the gun on themselves has something seriously mentally wrong. So I have no issue with the conclusion that they had fucked up dysfunctional thinking which led them to act in a "crazy" way. What they did was "crazy". They chose to do it. Therefore they were "crazy".

Where it gets difficult is when we conclude that the problem is mental illness and ordinary people living with disabilities get branded as a dangerous "other" who could attack at any moment.

Whatever you want to call it. If I make a racist comment to a random african on my street the most that can happen is I get punched. Noone will shoot me because I called someone "nigga" over here. Do you know why?!

+ Show Spoiler +
hint: it's not just the fact that they don't have a gun. That helps a lot but it's not the only reason.
Kickstart
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1941 Posts
August 26 2015 19:20 GMT
#44788
I find the thought process displayed by whatisthisasheep to be pretty disturbing whenever I come across it. To believe as he does you have to say "Blacks were enslaved for hundreds of years; then we freed them but they were not equal and didn't have many basic rights; then only about 50 years ago we desegregate but still a culture rife with racism prevails for quite some time; but now nothing is holding them down, racism is over, they aren't owed anything, and the only people holding them back are themselves". How oblivious to our nations history and its lasting impact can someone be.

I mean every aspect of the system was setup against them and there are still remnants of it today that are glaringly obvious. People talk about schooling, look at college loans. Lenders would 'redlist' entire zipcodes (so they could get around discriminating, because they are not lending to the entire area not individuals) that were low-income (read, largely poor black populations). This notion that nothing is holding them back is just silly and ignorant. Are there more opportunities now than before? Yes. But it is still unreasonable to pretend like everything is equal and the playing field is the same for everyone when it clearly isn't. 50 years ago isn't even that long ago, to expect everything to be equal when we haven't even been desegregated for that long just baffles me.

Anyways I could rant forever but if you don't get the point by now there's no helping you :D!
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 26 2015 19:31 GMT
#44789
The thought process you saw is as old as the slavery. It's someone looking at the problems facing another group or race and desperately trying to come up with a reason that they didn't contribute to it. That whatever is happening to those people is not their fault in any way, even passively. And if that thought process goes on long enough it evolves into “Look at all the things we did for them and they still can’t get it right.”
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Trainrunnef
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States601 Posts
August 26 2015 19:32 GMT
#44790
On August 27 2015 03:58 cLutZ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 03:51 Trumpet wrote:
Feels like a good time to chime in that the whole "educate your way out of poverty" more or less hasn't worked. Didnt we get most the "absent fathers" nonsense out of our system when Rand Paul was blaming it for Baltimore's problems?

http://www.npr.org/2015/08/17/432619090/study-finds-education-does-not-close-racial-wealth-gap
http://hub.jhu.edu/2014/06/02/karl-alexander-long-shadow-research


More of an indictment of schooling and its inability to narrow gaps between different parts of the population. Also, it should go without saying that a white male that does not make it to college is not the same as a black male given the decades of affirmative action. We have research on the "mismatch" effect, but there is no reason to think that doesn't also apply to people who never go to college.



Regarding the bolded part NPR had a 2 part radio article showing that the difference in the achievement gap could be reduced by half through desegregation. Truth is many parts of the country have resegregated themselves through resident relocation. It follows the story of a nearly all black school district that was forced to shut down in 2013 due to the inadequacy of the schools. As a result the students were allowed to go to any nearby school district of their choosing.

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/562/the-problem-we-all-live-with

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/563/the-problem-we-all-live-with-part-two
I am, therefore I pee
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
August 26 2015 19:42 GMT
#44791
It's not a single comment or insult that sent him over the edge. He mentions the SC church massacre and a lifetime of discrimination too. Those are both factual observations and not lunatic ravings.

Black folks are fed up. We're done putting up with this shit and hearing some of the same crap I see here. I don't condone killing people under these circumstances, but it's going to keep happening. Speeches will be interrupted, traffic will be stopped, marches and protests will persist.

If you don't think there's a problem with how black folks are treated in this country, you're part of the problem.

Wise up folks, or just keep being ignorant bigots, either way this train is going to keep rolling until the problems are resolved.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Kickstart
Profile Blog Joined May 2008
United States1941 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 19:48:24
August 26 2015 19:45 GMT
#44792
Yes it is quite strange how they take it so personally when no one is blaming them as individuals. To admit there is or was an issue is not to say that it is your fault. Its just some weird defense mechanism for bigots where they have to believe there is no issue otherwise they feel attacked. Strange.

edit:
Really don't want to get too into it but @GH, killing people and interrupting speeches by people like Bernie is counterproductive. There is a way to meaningfully raise issues and then there are meaningless and counterproductive ways of doing it, and those are examples of the latter.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
August 26 2015 19:47 GMT
#44793
GH, I get you’re pissed. But linking totally valid, peaceful protests and civil disobedience to this killing it’s not appropriate. Its ok to be angry and its ok to protest. But this sort of senseless violence has not justification. And saying that more will come isn’t acceptable either.

Being angry is fine. Taking it out on random people is not.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 20:10:32
August 26 2015 20:09 GMT
#44794
On August 27 2015 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
It's not a single comment or insult that sent him over the edge. He mentions the SC church massacre and a lifetime of discrimination too. Those are both factual observations and not lunatic ravings.

Black folks are fed up. We're done putting up with this shit and hearing some of the same crap I see here. I don't condone killing people under these circumstances, but it's going to keep happening. Speeches will be interrupted, traffic will be stopped, marches and protests will persist.

If you don't think there's a problem with how black folks are treated in this country, you're part of the problem.

Wise up folks, or just keep being ignorant bigots, either way this train is going to keep rolling until the problems are resolved.


So black folks are fed up and that means they'll murder you since they have a systemic SES disadvantage and hear racist comments all their lives. It is astounding that you would make these fear mongering, extortionist remarks when this murderer has no justification whatsoever. It's the epitome of counter-productiveness to do this in protest of negative views of blacks. He killed two innocent people. He was in fact an admirer of mass murderers for their ability to kill.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shooting-alleged-gunman-details-grievances-suicide-notes/story?id=33336339

Later in the manifesto, the writer quotes the Virginia Tech mass killer, Seung Hui Cho, calls him “his boy,” and expresses admiration for the Columbine High School killers. “Also, I was influenced by Seung–Hui Cho. That’s my boy right there. He got NEARLY double the amount that Eric Harris and Dylann Klebold got…just sayin.'"

It'd be interesting to compare this guy to someone like Dylann Roof. They would probably have a lot in common (as racist extremists do). At least in Roof's case we knew he had a slew of mental issues.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 20:10:23
August 26 2015 20:09 GMT
#44795
On August 27 2015 04:47 Plansix wrote:
GH, I get you’re pissed. But linking totally valid, peaceful protests and civil disobedience to this killing it’s not appropriate. Its ok to be angry and its ok to protest. But this sort of senseless violence has not justification. And saying that more will come isn’t acceptable either.

Being angry is fine. Taking it out on random people is not.


I said I didn't condone it (so gtfo with that nonsense), my point is, that things will keep happening regardless of their righteousness.

The connection was already made by someone else trying to tie it to "PC culture".

Saying there will be more to come is an observation of history and it's semi-predictive nature regarding similar situations. Hopefully everyone continues doing peaceful protests, but just as Trump inspired some dicks to beat some immigrant, some people will take rhetoric and react disproportionately. It's not a comment on it's justification, it's on it's probability.

Time is up! Act right, act right NOW, otherwise things will get worse(worth mentioning again, I don't approve of violent reactions like the story that prompted this discussion). I don't think folks here have a real appreciation for how done with this black folks are.

If people don't take this shit seriously and make moves to address it, I wouldn't be surprised to see rush hour traffic shut down in every major city across the country for months at a time.

We're done waiting for white folks to sort out and fix how/why murderous cops aren't prosecuted (and convicted), how/why black folks are routinely denied their constitutional rights, how/why black people are under attack from the people paid to protect them, etc...

America's house is on fire and white America can help put it out, pretend it isn't burning, or throw gasoline on it (like some here). But it's going to continue to get increasingly difficult to keep pretending people aren't burning alive.

On August 27 2015 05:09 Roe wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 04:42 GreenHorizons wrote:
It's not a single comment or insult that sent him over the edge. He mentions the SC church massacre and a lifetime of discrimination too. Those are both factual observations and not lunatic ravings.

Black folks are fed up. We're done putting up with this shit and hearing some of the same crap I see here. I don't condone killing people under these circumstances, but it's going to keep happening. Speeches will be interrupted, traffic will be stopped, marches and protests will persist.

If you don't think there's a problem with how black folks are treated in this country, you're part of the problem.

Wise up folks, or just keep being ignorant bigots, either way this train is going to keep rolling until the problems are resolved.


So black folks are fed up and that means they'll murder you since they have a systemic SES disadvantage and hear racist comments all their lives. It is astounding that you would make these fear mongering, extortionist remarks when this murderer has no justification whatsoever. He killed two innocent people. He was in fact an admirer of mass murderers for their ability to kill.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/shooting-alleged-gunman-details-grievances-suicide-notes/story?id=33336339

Later in the manifesto, the writer quotes the Virginia Tech mass killer, Seung Hui Cho, calls him “his boy,” and expresses admiration for the Columbine High School killers. “Also, I was influenced by Seung–Hui Cho. That’s my boy right there. He got NEARLY double the amount that Eric Harris and Dylann Klebold got…just sayin.'"

It'd be interesting to compare this guy to someone like Dylann Roof. They would probably have a lot in common (as racist extremists do). At least in Roof's case we knew he had a slew of mental issues.


Learn to read.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
Roe
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada6002 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 20:15:14
August 26 2015 20:11 GMT
#44796
You're just upset. I get it, and that's valid. If I didn't respect that, I'll apologize and take the time now to give it and say that I probably came off harsh or insensitive. I've seen a lot of posts from you that I respect because of their wit and indignation. But take a break before you say more you'll regret.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States24505 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 20:17:36
August 26 2015 20:13 GMT
#44797
On August 27 2015 05:11 Roe wrote:
You're just upset. Take a break before you say more you'll regret.


I don't regret a word I said. You all obviously aren't even close to understanding this. Your post was just ignorant and ignored my opening. Just own it, don't try to put it back on me and butter me up by saying you agree with me sometimes.
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
August 26 2015 20:13 GMT
#44798
Gov. Jerry Brown, who is in the middle of a political battle over climate-change legislation, took aim at oil companies Monday, saying they sell a “highly destructive” product.

“The oil industry is in deep trouble,” the governor told reporters Monday at a news conference on the shores of Lake Tahoe, where he was attending an annual meeting about the area’s environment.

Oil companies “have a product that is highly destructive, while highly valuable at the same time. And we’re trying to work out the right policies,” he said.

Brown has proposed cutting California's consumption of gasoline in half by 2030. Lawmakers are considering a measure to achieve that goal, as well as other steps intended to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.

The legislation has passed the state Senate but is facing some trouble in the Assembly, where business-friendly Democrats hold more sway.

Oil companies have ramped up their opposition, saying the legislation would lead to gasoline rationing — a contention the measure's supporters reject.


Source
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-08-26 20:19:48
August 26 2015 20:16 GMT
#44799
My point is, this ins't the hill you pick to die on. This isn't the guy. He was just an angry man who picked racial issues as the reason for the anger he couldn't' deal with. He threatened people before from reports. This is not the guy you point to and say, "I understand why he is angry. I face the same problems he did."

Racism in a problem in the US. Trump is a problem and the white supremacists voicing their support of him are problems. There are unlimited examples of the harm it doesn't, you don't need to back this wagon.

On August 27 2015 05:13 GreenHorizons wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 27 2015 05:11 Roe wrote:
You're just upset. Take a break before you say more you'll regret.


I don't regret a word I said. You all obviously aren't even close to understanding this.


I'm white. I'll never really understand because I won't ever have to deal with those problems. But this isn't the guy. He was just an angry person who decided to hurt people.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
JinDesu
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States3990 Posts
August 26 2015 20:25 GMT
#44800
GH - you don't condone this killing, but you state that due to the racial issues, events such as protests and lashing out will continue to happen and cannot be swept under the rug. However - do you at least condemn this killing?
Yargh
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