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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up! NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious. Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action. |
On August 27 2015 05:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +Gov. Jerry Brown, who is in the middle of a political battle over climate-change legislation, took aim at oil companies Monday, saying they sell a “highly destructive” product.
“The oil industry is in deep trouble,” the governor told reporters Monday at a news conference on the shores of Lake Tahoe, where he was attending an annual meeting about the area’s environment.
Oil companies “have a product that is highly destructive, while highly valuable at the same time. And we’re trying to work out the right policies,” he said.
Brown has proposed cutting California's consumption of gasoline in half by 2030. Lawmakers are considering a measure to achieve that goal, as well as other steps intended to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The legislation has passed the state Senate but is facing some trouble in the Assembly, where business-friendly Democrats hold more sway.
Oil companies have ramped up their opposition, saying the legislation would lead to gasoline rationing — a contention the measure's supporters reject. Source
LA Times, still special pleader for Brown's insanity.
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I don't think that GH has ever shown any discretion in selecting incidents as opportunities for raising the banner of railing against the oppression of the black population. Using this incident or something like what happened in Ferguson just isn't going to do the movement any favors. Of course, and in fairness, it's not just GH who is guilty of this. Tons of prominent people always make the same error.
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On August 27 2015 05:16 Plansix wrote:
My point is, this ins't the hill you pick to die on. This isn't the guy. He was just an angry man who picked racial issues as the reason for the anger he couldn't' deal with. He threatened people before from reports. This is not the guy you point to and say, "I understand why he is angry. I face the same problems he did."
Racism in a problem in the US. Trump is a problem and the white supremacists voicing their support of him are problems. There are unlimited examples of the harm it doesn't, you don't need to back this wagon.
Forget that, I do understand why he was angry and there is nothing wrong with me understanding why he was angry. That in no way excuses or justifies what he did, nor should it be read as such. It in no way condones or sanctions his violent reaction.
But there will be millions of people who take similar anger and use it to disrupt the lives of those who otherwise can go through their days unburdened by the problems we face. That, so-called, "unburdened life" is rapidly becoming a thing of the past.
On August 27 2015 05:25 JinDesu wrote:
GH - you don't condone this killing, but you state that due to the racial issues, events such as protests and lashing out will continue to happen and cannot be swept under the rug. However - do you at least condemn this killing?
This feels like a really dumb question, but of course I condemn this killing... Clearly people haven't been able to grasp that.
I don't even know what the hell you all are talking about with the "This isn't the guy" stuff. I have no clue where that is even coming from...
Seriously, what does that even mean? "Back this wagon" literally wtf?
On August 27 2015 05:28 xDaunt wrote:
I don't think that GH has ever shown any discretion in selecting incidents as opportunities for raising the banner of railing against the oppression of the black population. Using this incident or something like what happened in Ferguson just isn't going to do the movement any favors. Of course, and in fairness, it's not just GH who is guilty of this. Tons of prominent people always make the same error.
"Using what happened in Ferguson just isn't doing the movement any favors"?!? Remind me never to listen to xDaunt's opinion on this stuff...
The municipal court judge in Ferguson, Missouri, on Monday announced sweeping changes to the city's court system, including an order to withdraw all arrest warrants issued in that city before December 31, 2014.
You think all the attention around Michael Brown didn't lead to something (though, not enough) getting done?!?
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It means associating with him in any way will be counter-productive, no matter how true. If you try to press that you understand why he did it then the people who you are fighting against (racists) will just go "look the angry black people think its ok to kill us over words". Right or not, valid or not, this is what will happen and it is best to just not associate with people and events like this.
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I guess to me, your post came off a little bit more revolutionary than I think you intended it to be.
I think to put it into how I saw the event - recently there was an article about the US Marine who choked a transgender woman in the Philippines after he found out she was transgender while he was trying to have sexual relations with her. The two sides of the argument amongst my friends was:
1) He's a transphobic and he killed her because he hates transgenders.
2) He's a person who was going to kill someone out of anger, and her hiding (or at least not telling him beforehand) that she was a transgender gave his anger the excuse.
In this case, I viewed it more of a guy who had pre-existing excessive anger/mental issues and lashed out with violence using racial issues as his justification instead of someone who was normal and got pushed time and time again to his breaking point. But I don't have enough information to say that my view is anywhere near accurate - it's just my initial thought from reading the articles that have come out today on this subject.
And I do see that you bring up the topic of people taking similar anger and using it to disrupt the lives of those who are unburdened, but I think that those people are putting more and more people against the cause than necessary..
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On August 27 2015 05:37 Kickstart wrote:
It means associating with him in any way will be counter-productive, no matter how true. If you try to press that you understand why he did it then the people who you are fighting against (racists) will just go "look the angry black people think its ok to kill us over words". Right or not, valid or not, this is what will happen and it is best to just not associate with people and events like this.
F**k em. They are still going to be racist and find a reason. We're not playing by their rules any more. I can't overemphasize how done with this black folks are. The first thing I said was "I don't condone" and people still assumed I was condoning it, so it makes no difference.
The guy had problems and did a sick and twisted thing and should be held accountable. That doesn't change the stuff leading up to it or what helped get him into that state. Those are still real issues independent of what they helped drive him to do.
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On August 27 2015 05:39 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:
what gets done though?
Nothing, because it is a set of movements that see symptoms as problems. Thus, even if they were effective in their advocacy they would just have to crusade against another symptom.
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On August 27 2015 05:45 cLutZ wrote:Nothing, because it is a set of movements that see symptoms as problems. Thus, even if they were effective in their advocacy they would just have to crusade against another symptom.
Bullshit. People were removed and
The municipal court judge in Ferguson, Missouri, on Monday announced sweeping changes to the city's court system, including an order to withdraw all arrest warrants issued in that city before December 31, 2014.
Source
That's not enough, but I call bullshit on your whole statement.
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So if he had problems and was sick, it wouldn't have mattered what lead up to it. He would still be angry and would have found another reason that wasn't racism.
And your post was bad. And this is coming form the guy that is on your side almost all the time. It came off as endorsing what the man did or just saying "I don't support violence, but its what happens". You phrased your argument poorly. You can say black folks are sick of it all without citing the crazy man that killed two innocent people. Or if you want to have the nuanced discussion, maybe wait till the people who died are buried before going down that path.
Isn't an unarmed man shot by police. You can't go around backing every single black person that commits a violent crime and then blames racism.
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On August 27 2015 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:37 Kickstart wrote:
It means associating with him in any way will be counter-productive, no matter how true. If you try to press that you understand why he did it then the people who you are fighting against (racists) will just go "look the angry black people think its ok to kill us over words". Right or not, valid or not, this is what will happen and it is best to just not associate with people and events like this. F**k em. They are still going to be racist and find a reason. We're not playing by their rules any more. I can't overemphasize how done with this black folks are. The first thing I said was "I don't condone" and people still assumed I was condoning it, so it makes no difference. The guy had problems and did a sick and twisted thing and should be held accountable. That doesn't change the stuff leading up to it or what helped get him into that state. Those are still real issues independent of what they helped drive him to do.
Because "I don't condone" are just meaningless words.
When the other 50 words of your post go against the thought mentioned in the first 3 they get ignored.
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On August 27 2015 05:26 Introvert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Gov. Jerry Brown, who is in the middle of a political battle over climate-change legislation, took aim at oil companies Monday, saying they sell a “highly destructive” product.
“The oil industry is in deep trouble,” the governor told reporters Monday at a news conference on the shores of Lake Tahoe, where he was attending an annual meeting about the area’s environment.
Oil companies “have a product that is highly destructive, while highly valuable at the same time. And we’re trying to work out the right policies,” he said.
Brown has proposed cutting California's consumption of gasoline in half by 2030. Lawmakers are considering a measure to achieve that goal, as well as other steps intended to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The legislation has passed the state Senate but is facing some trouble in the Assembly, where business-friendly Democrats hold more sway.
Oil companies have ramped up their opposition, saying the legislation would lead to gasoline rationing — a contention the measure's supporters reject. Source LA Times, still special pleader for Brown's insanity.
so you're saying there's something wrong about what brown is saying? because pretty much the entire oil industry is highly destructive to the land. not to mention the pollutants it causes.
at some point we're going to run out of oil. might as well start early.
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On August 27 2015 05:49 Plansix wrote:
So if he had problems and was sick, it wouldn't have mattered what lead up to it. He would still be angry and would have found another reason that wasn't racism.
And your post was bad. And this is coming form the guy that is on your side almost all the time. It came off as endorsing what the man did or just saying "I don't support violence, but its what happens". You phrased your argument poorly. You can say black folks are sick of it all without citing the crazy man that killed two innocent people. Or if you want to have the nuanced discussion, maybe wait till the people who died are buried before going down that path.
Sorry if pointing out reality is too harsh or "poor phrasing".
I said the same thing about Trump and his supporters but no one is making the same accusations about me implicitly or through poor phrasing endorsing the action or so on.
It's a crap argument.
If the guy is going to be brought up here and it's going to be used as some disgusting argument against "pc culture" and the bullshit "blacks are doing this to themselves, why aren't they like Asians" rhetoric is going to be put up, I'm going to remind people the issues he mentions are real, the frustration is real, and the consequences are real. Now people shouldn't go shooting people over it, but that's an entirely different issue from the racial issues, and the mental health (care or lack thereof) issues for that matter.
That you all can't separate them is a "you" issue not a "me" issue
On August 27 2015 05:50 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:42 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 27 2015 05:37 Kickstart wrote:
It means associating with him in any way will be counter-productive, no matter how true. If you try to press that you understand why he did it then the people who you are fighting against (racists) will just go "look the angry black people think its ok to kill us over words". Right or not, valid or not, this is what will happen and it is best to just not associate with people and events like this. F**k em. They are still going to be racist and find a reason. We're not playing by their rules any more. I can't overemphasize how done with this black folks are. The first thing I said was "I don't condone" and people still assumed I was condoning it, so it makes no difference. The guy had problems and did a sick and twisted thing and should be held accountable. That doesn't change the stuff leading up to it or what helped get him into that state. Those are still real issues independent of what they helped drive him to do. Because "I don't condone" are just meaningless words. When the other 50 words of your post go against the thought mentioned in the first 3 they get ignored.
They aren't meaningless. Probably would of helped the Republican party had they been able to say at least as much about people calling Obama a foreign-born, Muslim, terrorist.
So if saying "I don't condone" was a bridge too far then, clearly they aren't meaningless words.
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Greenhorizons your extremist views are not doing anyone any favors. If you really want to end racism, it doesn't help to relate this incident with the current political movement. The smart move would be to keep this kind of activity as far away from anything race related. This guy just obviously had mental issues and associating it with ending racism to stop this kind of behavior makes you lose all credibility.
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On August 27 2015 03:57 misirlou wrote:
I think it's amazing people can blame the shooting on race or mental illness. There are racist comments thrown around everyday in the world and mentally ill people live everywhere. Unless you want to make a point that americans are more racist and/or african americans are more violent than afro-europeans and/or americans have a statistically significant higher % of population affected mental illness, you have to face the things that are indeed different on your country.
He obviously had a mental illiness and in his manifesto said that he did it beacuse of the racist shooting in south carolina (even put his deposit down for the gun 2 days after the shooting). So characterizing people blaming it on those 2 things as dumb is a pretty hard sell.
He also says that he did it because he was a gay black man and was bullied because of it. As someone who was bullied for a long period of time I can personaly attest that it gives you mental illness.
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On August 27 2015 05:50 Karis Vas Ryaar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:26 Introvert wrote:On August 27 2015 05:13 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Gov. Jerry Brown, who is in the middle of a political battle over climate-change legislation, took aim at oil companies Monday, saying they sell a “highly destructive” product.
“The oil industry is in deep trouble,” the governor told reporters Monday at a news conference on the shores of Lake Tahoe, where he was attending an annual meeting about the area’s environment.
Oil companies “have a product that is highly destructive, while highly valuable at the same time. And we’re trying to work out the right policies,” he said.
Brown has proposed cutting California's consumption of gasoline in half by 2030. Lawmakers are considering a measure to achieve that goal, as well as other steps intended to reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
The legislation has passed the state Senate but is facing some trouble in the Assembly, where business-friendly Democrats hold more sway.
Oil companies have ramped up their opposition, saying the legislation would lead to gasoline rationing — a contention the measure's supporters reject. Source LA Times, still special pleader for Brown's insanity. so you're saying there's something wrong about what brown is saying? because pretty much the entire oil industry is highly destructive to the land. not to mention the pollutants it causes. at some point we're going to run out of oil. might as well start early.
He wants to cut CA gas use by 50% in 15 years. That alone is ridiculous. And the LAT just goes along and mindlessly repeats whatever the governor says.
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On August 27 2015 06:00 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 05:49 Plansix wrote:
So if he had problems and was sick, it wouldn't have mattered what lead up to it. He would still be angry and would have found another reason that wasn't racism.
And your post was bad. And this is coming form the guy that is on your side almost all the time. It came off as endorsing what the man did or just saying "I don't support violence, but its what happens". You phrased your argument poorly. You can say black folks are sick of it all without citing the crazy man that killed two innocent people. Or if you want to have the nuanced discussion, maybe wait till the people who died are buried before going down that path. Sorry if pointing out reality is too harsh or "poor phrasing". I said the same thing about Trump and his supporters but no one is making the same accusations about me implicitly or through poor phrasing endorsing the action or so on. It's a crap argument. If the guy is going to be brought up here and it's going to be used as some disgusting argument against "pc culture" and the bullshit "blacks are doing this to themselves, why aren't they like Asians" rhetoric is going to be put up, I'm going to remind people the issues he mentions are real, the frustration is real, and the consequences are real. Now people shouldn't go shooting people over it, but that's an entirely different issue from the racial issues, and the mental health (care or lack thereof) issues for that matter. That you all can't separate them is a "you" issue not a "me" issue
Hey GH, did you miss the part where the entire thread took the piss out of the little racist Trump supporter for being what he is? Like for over 2 hours.
Once again, I respect that your angry. That doesn't mean lash out at the closes available white people. And if you want to convey ideas and change minds, then work on how you present them. If you want no one's mind to change because you are focused on presenting them with "reality", keep doing what you are doing.
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On August 27 2015 06:00 SolaR- wrote:
Greenhorizons your extremist views are not doing anyone any favors. If you really want to end racism, it doesn't help to relate this incident with the current political movement. The smart move would be to keep this kind of activity as far away from anything race related. This guy just obviously had mental issues and associating it with ending racism to stop this kind of behavior makes you lose all credibility.
lol what "extremist" views? Seriously?
On August 27 2015 06:06 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 27 2015 06:00 GreenHorizons wrote:On August 27 2015 05:49 Plansix wrote:
So if he had problems and was sick, it wouldn't have mattered what lead up to it. He would still be angry and would have found another reason that wasn't racism.
And your post was bad. And this is coming form the guy that is on your side almost all the time. It came off as endorsing what the man did or just saying "I don't support violence, but its what happens". You phrased your argument poorly. You can say black folks are sick of it all without citing the crazy man that killed two innocent people. Or if you want to have the nuanced discussion, maybe wait till the people who died are buried before going down that path. Sorry if pointing out reality is too harsh or "poor phrasing". I said the same thing about Trump and his supporters but no one is making the same accusations about me implicitly or through poor phrasing endorsing the action or so on. It's a crap argument. If the guy is going to be brought up here and it's going to be used as some disgusting argument against "pc culture" and the bullshit "blacks are doing this to themselves, why aren't they like Asians" rhetoric is going to be put up, I'm going to remind people the issues he mentions are real, the frustration is real, and the consequences are real. Now people shouldn't go shooting people over it, but that's an entirely different issue from the racial issues, and the mental health (care or lack thereof) issues for that matter. That you all can't separate them is a "you" issue not a "me" issue Hey GH, did you miss the part where the entire thread took the piss out of the little racist Trump supporter for being what he is? Like for over 2 hours. Once again, I respect that your angry. That doesn't mean lash out at the closes available white people. And if you want to convey ideas and change minds, then work on how you present them. If you want no one's mind to change because you are focused on presenting them with "reality", keep doing what you are doing.
Did you miss the part where it was totally ineffective at changing any minds?
I'm surrounded everywhere by white folks, you all are hardly the "closest available" I spoke here because of what was being said here.
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lets be real though peoples minds dont change often regardless of presentation unless they discover that they have some factual bases wrong
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I get how racism is a completely legitimate source of anger (as a relatively privileged Asian-American and model minority) for African-Americans, but bringing it up like it's a applicable issue here isn't adding to the conversation and hurts the cause. He could have just as easily said ISIS made him do it, the Devil made him do it, etc.
There are things that are irritating or really really shitty, but for the vast majority of people who fall within a couple sigmas of "completely, utterly boring sane and not crazy" it doesn't drive them to kill people.
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EPT
