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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1590

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23514 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 08:57:28
January 22 2015 08:51 GMT
#31781
On January 22 2015 17:23 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2015 16:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
On January 22 2015 13:25 oneofthem wrote:
this current circus of republicans don't care about policy. they don't even care about policy objectives.


heck they dont even know what a policy objective is

Funny thing is, they WON the last election, so the Democrats are even worse...


If republicans/conservatives actually thought the midterms meant much about how the nation at large feels they would be a lot more confident about 2016.

Double wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.


Well with Boehner inviting Netanyahu over to give a speech from the same place as Obama just did maybe they just make a press to change the constitution and elect Netanyahu?


Instead, Boehner has invited Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to address Congress next month. He didn't consult with the White House before extending the invitation, and administration officials are not happy. Press secretary Josh Earnest said Wednesday afternoon that Boehner's invitation is a breach of normal diplomatic protocol. Typically, a nation's leader would contact the White House before planning a visit to the United States, he said. The White House heard about the invite from Boehner's office, not from the Israelis.

"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 22 2015 08:55 GMT
#31782
On January 22 2015 17:23 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2015 16:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
On January 22 2015 13:25 oneofthem wrote:
this current circus of republicans don't care about policy. they don't even care about policy objectives.


heck they dont even know what a policy objective is

Funny thing is, they WON the last election, so the Democrats are even worse...


winning an election and having policy objectives really aren't correlated much at all.
while it would be hard to measure, I'd expect a correlation of less than 0.2
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 22 2015 13:20 GMT
#31783
One more leg gets kicked out on Ferguson as the DOJ will recommend no civil rights charges be filed:

Justice Department lawyers will recommend that no civil rights charges be brought against the police officer who fatally shot an unarmed teenager in Ferguson, Mo., after an F.B.I. investigation found no evidence to support charges, law enforcement officials said Wednesday.

Attorney General Eric H. Holder Jr. and his civil rights chief, Vanita Gupta, will have the final say on whether the Justice Department will close the case against the officer, Darren Wilson. But it would be unusual for them to overrule the prosecutors on the case, who are still working on a legal memo explaining their recommendation.

A decision by the Justice Department would bring an end to the politically charged investigation of Mr. Wilson in the death of 18-year-old Michael Brown. The Missouri authorities concluded their investigation into Mr. Brown’s death in November and also recommended against charges.

Federal investigators interviewed more than 200 people and analyzed cellphone audio and video, the law enforcement officials said. Officer Wilson’s gun, clothing and other evidence were analyzed at the F.B.I.’s laboratory in Quantico, Va. Though the local authorities and Mr. Brown’s family conducted autopsies, Mr. Holder ordered a separate autopsy, which was conducted by pathologists from the Armed Forces Medical Examiner’s office at Dover Air Force Base in Delaware, the officials said.

The federal investigation did not uncover any facts that differed significantly from the evidence made public by the authorities in Missouri late last year, the law enforcement officials said. To bring federal civil rights charges, the Justice Department would have needed to prove that Officer Wilson had intended to violate Mr. Brown’s rights when he opened fire, and that he had done so willfully — meaning he knew that it was wrong to fire but did so anyway.

The Justice Department plans to release a report explaining its decision, though it is not clear when. Dena Iverson, a department spokeswoman, declined to comment on the case Wednesday.
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 22 2015 13:25 GMT
#31784
On January 22 2015 17:45 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2015 17:23 coverpunch wrote:
On January 22 2015 16:12 ticklishmusic wrote:
On January 22 2015 13:25 oneofthem wrote:
this current circus of republicans don't care about policy. they don't even care about policy objectives.


heck they dont even know what a policy objective is

Funny thing is, they WON the last election, so the Democrats are even worse...


30% of the electorate voting. Big win.

He didn't manage to rally his own guys, despite all the proclaimed weakness of the Republican platform. The government shutdown was supposed to be les majeste, but the next election was a rout. It takes a lot of willpower to lose the fight and inspire nobody, then come back to say everybody that didn't bother to vote clandestinely supported the other guy/would've voted that way.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18840 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 14:35:47
January 22 2015 14:34 GMT
#31785
It also takes a lot of willpower to maintain a willful ignorance as to how midterm elections typically shakeout. There was practically nothing "special" about the recent election cycle, no matter how many times one says, "Obama."
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Danglars
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States12133 Posts
January 22 2015 18:23 GMT
#31786
On January 22 2015 23:34 farvacola wrote:
It also takes a lot of willpower to maintain a willful ignorance as to how midterm elections typically shakeout. There was practically nothing "special" about the recent election cycle, no matter how many times one says, "Obama."

I grant you its natural for the party to lose seats in the 6th year of office. What's unusual is how disillusioned the electorate, particularly Democrats, were to have midterm voting drop in all but 12 states (just comparing midterms). For national seats-held, the Republicans haven't had this large a majority since Herbert Hoover (if it was Ho hum nothing to see in this election move along, it wouldn't be setting records this long unbroken). We're seeing a rejection of Democratic policies and a desire to see new ones put into place.
Great armies come from happy zealots, and happy zealots come from California!
TL+ Member
farvacola
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States18840 Posts
January 22 2015 19:18 GMT
#31787
A rejection by a diminutive and underrepresentative electorate is not the stuff of a mandate.
"when the Dead Kennedys found out they had skinhead fans, they literally wrote a song titled 'Nazi Punks Fuck Off'"
Sermokala
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States14056 Posts
January 22 2015 20:00 GMT
#31788
Real. Its not a mandate until you hold all three electoral posts. Still though it was republican leanning even with the expected turnout and whatnot. It wasn't just a regular midterm.
A wise man will say that he knows nothing. We're gona party like its 2752 Hail Dark Brandon
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 22 2015 20:38 GMT
#31789
On January 23 2015 05:00 Sermokala wrote:
Real. Its not a mandate until you hold all three electoral posts. Still though it was republican leanning even with the expected turnout and whatnot. It wasn't just a regular midterm.

So when Hilary cleans up in 2016 its going to be back to a Democrat mandate?
When Dems hold all the cards they must compromise because otherwise they lack a broad based mandate. When Reps hold Congress the Dems must compromise because the Reps have a broad based mandate.
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 22:01:35
January 22 2015 20:51 GMT
#31790
On January 23 2015 03:23 Danglars wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2015 23:34 farvacola wrote:
It also takes a lot of willpower to maintain a willful ignorance as to how midterm elections typically shakeout. There was practically nothing "special" about the recent election cycle, no matter how many times one says, "Obama."

I grant you its natural for the party to lose seats in the 6th year of office. What's unusual is how disillusioned the electorate, particularly Democrats, were to have midterm voting drop in all but 12 states (just comparing midterms). For national seats-held, the Republicans haven't had this large a majority since Herbert Hoover (if it was Ho hum nothing to see in this election move along, it wouldn't be setting records this long unbroken). We're seeing a rejection of Democratic policies and a desire to see new ones put into place.


This is the height of delusion. Congress is at a ~15% approval rating when the public is being generous. Almost 7 out of 8 people disapprove of the job that Congress is doing. In the 2014 election only 36% of the population even voted.

Yet somehow from these numbers you interpret a narrow anti-democrat (because we can't call it republican; you, yourself, think most of the republicans in Congress are Wimps, not Conservatives) voting margin as disillusionment with democrats — not Congress. If you talked to the people who voted for some of the tea party challengers, they are disillusioned with everybody but their guy, often including other republican/conservative seat-winners. At best this can be interpreted as the success of an energized tiny minority rallying around some niche candidates, candidates who might best be described as anti-establishment. Of course the flavor of that anti-establishment gusto is quintessentially American, even down to its provinciality, but it's hardly coherent in even one place, and to say that it represents some great shift in the tides of American politics since 2008 is fantasy.

What it comes down to is that the only thing the midterms showed us was that few Americans even think that Congress matters. And given its accomplishments over the last 6 years who is to say that they are wrong.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 22 2015 20:54 GMT
#31791
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
January 22 2015 20:58 GMT
#31792
Pitchforkcracy?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21998 Posts
January 22 2015 21:33 GMT
#31793
On January 23 2015 05:54 zlefin wrote:
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.

Instead of devising a way to remove all of congress why not fight the disease and not the symptom? The US needs a complete redesign of the entire political system if you want to fix the current situation.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
xDaunt
Profile Joined March 2010
United States17988 Posts
January 22 2015 21:50 GMT
#31794
Changing the system isn't going to fix anything. The root problem is the culture of corruption. As long as it's there, the system won't operate properly.
GreenHorizons
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States23514 Posts
January 22 2015 21:53 GMT
#31795
On January 23 2015 06:50 xDaunt wrote:
Changing the system isn't going to fix anything. The root problem is the culture of corruption. As long as it's there, the system won't operate properly.



Good thing Citizens United cleared up most of that corruption with more freedom!
"People like to look at history and think 'If that was me back then, I would have...' We're living through history, and the truth is, whatever you are doing now is probably what you would have done then" "Scratch a Liberal..."
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 22 2015 22:15 GMT
#31796
On January 23 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 05:54 zlefin wrote:
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.

Instead of devising a way to remove all of congress why not fight the disease and not the symptom? The US needs a complete redesign of the entire political system if you want to fix the current situation.


what I'm talking about already is a major redesign; and it is fighting a part of the disease. Structural change is important. It's also a clear objective, do you have a clear roadmap for a complete redesign that would actually accomplish something and work?
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
centirius
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden40 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 22:32:53
January 22 2015 22:30 GMT
#31797
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21998 Posts
January 22 2015 22:33 GMT
#31798
On January 23 2015 07:15 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 23 2015 05:54 zlefin wrote:
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.

Instead of devising a way to remove all of congress why not fight the disease and not the symptom? The US needs a complete redesign of the entire political system if you want to fix the current situation.


what I'm talking about already is a major redesign; and it is fighting a part of the disease. Structural change is important. It's also a clear objective, do you have a clear roadmap for a complete redesign that would actually accomplish something and work?

"lets vote out all of congress" doesn't solve any part of the underlying problem.

And no ofc i dont have it all layed out but if you cant see the problems with your political system then it explains why the problems exist and keep getting worse.

Massively limit spending allowed by candidates, abolish superpac's, politicians should not be deciding on voter districts, abolish 'first to the post' system. abolish filibuster, the list go's on and on.

And yes XDaunt i agree that corruption is a large part of the problem.

It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 22 2015 22:44 GMT
#31799
On January 23 2015 07:30 centirius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?

Israel is a longtime ally in an unenviable position.
Introvert
Profile Joined April 2011
United States4866 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-22 22:51:55
January 22 2015 22:51 GMT
#31800
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.
"But, as the conservative understands it, modification of the rules should always reflect, and never impose, a change in the activities and beliefs of those who are subject to them, and should never on any occasion be so great as to destroy the ensemble."
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