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US Politics Mega-thread - Page 1591

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Read the rules in the OP before posting, please.

In order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a re-read to refresh your memory! The vast majority of you are contributing in a healthy way, keep it up!

NOTE: When providing a source, explain why you feel it is relevant and what purpose it adds to the discussion if it's not obvious.
Also take note that unsubstantiated tweets/posts meant only to rekindle old arguments can result in a mod action.
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 22 2015 22:55 GMT
#31801
On January 23 2015 07:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 07:30 centirius wrote:
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?

Israel is a longtime ally in an unenviable position.

Israel is a relatively recent ally -- even as late as the 1950s the Americans were at best lukewarm -- and elicits a lot of support among a moneyed demographic -- behold the Republican future candidates rush towards Sheldon and his rebuke of Christy for not being a fanatic pro-Israel -- and also it used to be an important political question in key districts in Florida -- but recent surveys among American-Jews suggests that Israel is becoming less important. Then again, most of American Jews live in solid Democrat districts so for them its probably true. Oh ya and of course the religious right believes that as soon as all the Jews move to Israel Jesus will come back, killing them -- or at least those who still dont recognize the obvious truth of baby jesus -- and all the other infidels.

JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 22 2015 23:05 GMT
#31802
On January 23 2015 07:55 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 07:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:30 centirius wrote:
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?

Israel is a longtime ally in an unenviable position.

Israel is a relatively recent ally -- even as late as the 1950s the Americans were at best lukewarm -- and elicits a lot of support among a moneyed demographic -- behold the Republican future candidates rush towards Sheldon and his rebuke of Christy for not being a fanatic pro-Israel -- and also it used to be an important political question in key districts in Florida -- but recent surveys among American-Jews suggests that Israel is becoming less important. Then again, most of American Jews live in solid Democrat districts so for them its probably true. Oh ya and of course the religious right believes that as soon as all the Jews move to Israel Jesus will come back, killing them -- or at least those who still dont recognize the obvious truth of baby jesus -- and all the other infidels.

Yesss - yesss! unleash your hatred and your journey to the darkside will be complete!
Sub40APM
Profile Joined August 2010
6336 Posts
January 22 2015 23:23 GMT
#31803
On January 23 2015 08:05 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 07:55 Sub40APM wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:30 centirius wrote:
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?

Israel is a longtime ally in an unenviable position.

Israel is a relatively recent ally -- even as late as the 1950s the Americans were at best lukewarm -- and elicits a lot of support among a moneyed demographic -- behold the Republican future candidates rush towards Sheldon and his rebuke of Christy for not being a fanatic pro-Israel -- and also it used to be an important political question in key districts in Florida -- but recent surveys among American-Jews suggests that Israel is becoming less important. Then again, most of American Jews live in solid Democrat districts so for them its probably true. Oh ya and of course the religious right believes that as soon as all the Jews move to Israel Jesus will come back, killing them -- or at least those who still dont recognize the obvious truth of baby jesus -- and all the other infidels.

Yesss - yesss! unleash your hatred and your journey to the darkside will be complete!
?
Eisenhower threatened Israel into giving back all their gains in 56. In 67 Israel killed 34 American sailors. The transition began in the 70s when the US supported Israel after 73. But even then are they really allies, so far Israel is the only 'ally' who has one of its spies sitting in a US jail -- for life --.
Here is Chris Christy personally apologizing to one of the biggest Republican donors because he used internationally recognized terms for the occupied territories: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/chris-christie-occupied-territories-apology-105169.html
And here is a representative of Christian Evengalicals -- the most loyal Republican block -- and their interpretation of support for Israel. http://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/While-threats-to-Israel-surge-so-does-Christian-Zionism-says-CUFIs-Hagee-380145

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Many conservative Christians say they believe that the president’s support for Israel fulfills a biblical injunction to protect the Jewish state, which some of them think will play a pivotal role in the second coming. Many on the left, in turn, fear that such theology may influence decisions the administration makes toward Israel and the Middle East.



coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 22 2015 23:35 GMT
#31804
On January 23 2015 07:30 centirius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?

Well, both parties fall over themselves to support Israel. For one, as a group, American Jews are wealthy, politically active, and they live in important electoral states (i.e. New York, California, Florida, etc.). For another, to put it quite frankly, Israel is a winner. They've won every war militarily, they win almost every fight politically, and they even prevail in most cases legally.

An interesting point to note is that Israel's image has suffered enormously in the age of global media. In print media where you could only show maps, Israel was clearly the plucky, tiny underdog holding off an entire hostile region. In global TV and internet media, you'd think Israel was the big bully oppressing its helpless neighbors.

Part of it is also that the Israelis tend to be much more sophisticated than groups like the Palestinians in terms of politics, finance, and law, which compounds because most Israelis (and all Israeli officials) can speak English and are very aware of Western cultural norms.

I would say that even though publicly left-wingers might criticize Israel, in private and in action they are still supportive. For instance, the Obama administration is pressuring the Palestinians to drop their application to the ICC and quietly threatening to withhold aid. They also ended up siding with Israel on nearly everything in peace negotiations, which have failed.
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
January 22 2015 23:42 GMT
#31805
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 22 2015 23:46 GMT
#31806
On January 23 2015 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.

Shall we also make the streets run rivers of red with the blood of capitalists, comrade?
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 22 2015 23:47 GMT
#31807
On January 23 2015 08:23 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 08:05 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:55 Sub40APM wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:44 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:30 centirius wrote:
On January 22 2015 17:33 Doublemint wrote:

I foresee a massive "anti-terror and pro israel campaign". it's like the only thing reps really could run on that sticks.




Something I never understood (as a non-american) is why Israel is so popular. Especially with the Christian right-wingers, anyone care to enlighten me?

Israel is a longtime ally in an unenviable position.

Israel is a relatively recent ally -- even as late as the 1950s the Americans were at best lukewarm -- and elicits a lot of support among a moneyed demographic -- behold the Republican future candidates rush towards Sheldon and his rebuke of Christy for not being a fanatic pro-Israel -- and also it used to be an important political question in key districts in Florida -- but recent surveys among American-Jews suggests that Israel is becoming less important. Then again, most of American Jews live in solid Democrat districts so for them its probably true. Oh ya and of course the religious right believes that as soon as all the Jews move to Israel Jesus will come back, killing them -- or at least those who still dont recognize the obvious truth of baby jesus -- and all the other infidels.

Yesss - yesss! unleash your hatred and your journey to the darkside will be complete!
?
Eisenhower threatened Israel into giving back all their gains in 56. In 67 Israel killed 34 American sailors. The transition began in the 70s when the US supported Israel after 73. But even then are they really allies, so far Israel is the only 'ally' who has one of its spies sitting in a US jail -- for life --.
Here is Chris Christy personally apologizing to one of the biggest Republican donors because he used internationally recognized terms for the occupied territories: http://www.politico.com/story/2014/03/chris-christie-occupied-territories-apology-105169.html
And here is a representative of Christian Evengalicals -- the most loyal Republican block -- and their interpretation of support for Israel. http://www.jpost.com/Christian-News/While-threats-to-Israel-surge-so-does-Christian-Zionism-says-CUFIs-Hagee-380145

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/14/washington/14israel.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

Show nested quote +
Many conservative Christians say they believe that the president’s support for Israel fulfills a biblical injunction to protect the Jewish state, which some of them think will play a pivotal role in the second coming. Many on the left, in turn, fear that such theology may influence decisions the administration makes toward Israel and the Middle East.

Support for Israel is widespread in this country. More-so for conservatives than liberals, but liberals also strongly support Israel.

I think this Vox article covers the topic nicely:
Why the US has the most pro-Israel foreign policy in the world

Everyone knows the United States is Israel's best friend. The US gives Israel billions of dollars in aid annually, consistently blocks UN Security Council resolutions condemning Israel, and backs its military offensives publicly. But why? What's the thinking behind America going above-and-beyond for Israel?

The short version: it's complicated. The long version is that It's a tight interplay of America's long-running Middle East strategy, US public opinion/electoral politics, and a pro-Israel lobbying campaign that is effective, but maybe not as effective as you've heard. Here's a guide to the different factors shaping America's Israel policy — and how they relate to each other.

+ Show Spoiler +
Since the Cold War, Israel has been the linchpin of American Middle East strategy

US President Jimmy Carter, Egyptian President Anwar Sadat, and Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin shake hands at the Camp David accords that led to an Israeli-Egyptian peace treaty. David Hume Kennerly/Getty Images

The US wasn't always so close with Israel. For instance, when Israel (along with France and Britain) invaded Egypt in 1956, the United States sided against Israel, pushing the invaders to leave. And the US for years opposed, and worked actively against, Israel's clandestine nuclear program. "Stated commitments to [Israel from American policymakers] cannot erase a legacy of US policies that often represented more of a threat than a support to Israeli security," Michael Barnett, George Washington University political scientist, writes.

Even when the US did come to support Israel, it was more about cold strategic calculation than the domestic political support you see today. The US-Israel relationship grew "by leaps and bounds" after 1967, according to Barnett, owing largely to "a changing US containment and strategic posture." American presidents and strategists came to see Israel as a useful tool for containing Soviet influence in the Middle East, which was significant among Arab states, and used diplomatic and military support to weave Israel firmly into the anti-Soviet bloc.

This strategic justification came down with the Berlin Wall. Yet the US aid to Israel kept flowing after the Cold War, as did diplomatic support. What kept it going?

THE US APPROACH TO THE MIDDLE EAST DIDN'T CHANGE THAT MUCH AFTER THE COLD WAR

For one thing, the US approach to the Middle East didn't change that much after the Cold War. The US became increasingly involved in managing disputes and problems inside the Middle East during the Cold War, and it maintained that role as the world's sole super-power in the 90s. Stability in the Middle East continued to be a major American interest, for a number of reasons that included the global oil market, and the US took on the role as guarantor of regional stability.

That meant the US saw it as strategically worthwhile to support states like Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Israel, which saw themselves as benefitting from an essentially conservative US approach to Middle Eastern regional politics. Unlike, say, Iran, Syria, and Saddam's Iraq, these countries were basically OK with the status quo in the Middle East. The US also supported the status quo, so it supported them accordingly.

This view of Israel as a "force for stability" helps maintain US support, according to Brent Sasley, a political scientist at the University of Texas, "in the sense that Israel can stabilize what's going on in the Middle East. If there's fear of Jordan being undermined by an internal or external enemy, the United States sometimes turns to Israel to pose a threat to that threat."

America's self-appointed role as manager of the Middle East also landed it the job of Israeli-Palestinian peace broker.

"The parties need a third party," Hussein Ibish, a Senior Fellow at the American Task Force on Palestine, says. "I think there is no other candidate than the United States. There's no other party that's capable, and no other party that's interested."

American policymakers have seen US support for Israel as a way of showing Israel that the US is still taking its interests into account during negotiations, and thus convincing Israel that they can safely engage in peace talks. It's meant to draw the Israelis to the negotiating table, and keep them there.

Together, these strategic factors explain why America's approach to Israel has been broadly consistent for at least the past three administrations. Despite the vast disagreements between the George W. Bush administration versus the Clinton and Obama administrations on foreign policy, they've both supported military and political aid to Israel. And they've both crossed Israel when it wasn't in the US' strategic interests: Bush refused to support an Israeli strike on Iran, and Obama repeatedly clashed with Israeli leaders on West Bank settlements.

All of this isn't to say that American presidents and foreign policy principals are necessarily right to believe these things. It's within the realm of possibility, as some argue, that US support for Israel undermines regional stability and compromises America's status as neutral broker during peace negotiations. The point here isn't to endorse the official US view, but describe the line of thinking that's been so influential in driving the American foreign policy establishment's approach to Israel.

Supporting Israel is good politics in the US

US support for Israel isn't just about strategic calculation and foreign policy interests, or at least not anymore. For a long time, at the very least since the 1980s, it's also been about domestic politics and the way American politicians read American voters.

Congressional votes on issues relating to Israel are famously lopsided. The Senate resolution supporting Israel's recent offensives in Gaza passed unanimously, as many "pro-Israel" bills and resolutions do.

The simplest explanation for these lopsided votes is that supporting Israel is really, really popular among voters. "The single factor most driving the U.S.-Israel relationship appears to be the broad and deep support for Israel among the American public," Israel Institute program director Michael Koplow writes. "The average gap between those holding favorable and unfavorable views of Israel over [the past four administrations] is 31 points."

Indeed, Gallup data since 1988 consistently shows a much higher percentage of Americans sympathizing with Israelis than with Palestinians in the conflict:

So it makes sense that Congresspeople would take pretty hard-core pro-Israel stances: it's reasonably popular.

But why is Israel so popular among Americans in the first place? One big reason is a perceived sense of "shared values." According to Barnett, the American moral image of Israel — "the only democracy in the Middle East," for example — is the "foundation of US-Israeli relations." Of course, as Barnett hastens to add, this leaves Israel vulnerable if Americans comes to believe that Israel has strayed from those shared values (more on that in the last section).

Religious groups are two other critically important factors. American Jews and evangelical Christians are two of the most politically engaged groups in the United States. They're major constituencies, respectively, in the Democratic and Republican parties. And both are overwhelmingly pro-Israel.

There are nuances here: evangelical support for Israel tends to be more uncritical than Jewish support. For instance, a majority of reform and secular Jews — 65 percent of the American Jewish population — disapprove of Israel's expansion of West Bank settlements. And Jews under the age of 35 are the least likely to identify as Zionist (though a majority still do). On the other hand, the older and more conservative Jews who aren't entirely representative of the more liberal body of Jewish-American public opinion toward Israel, have a lot of clout with national politicians. They express strong desire to vote based on the Israel issue and are clustered in Florida and Pennsylvania, large swing states in presidential elections.

All that said, Pew data shows overall consistency in American Jewish views on the US-Israel relationship. 54 percent of American Jews think the US supports Israel the right amount — and 31 percent say it doesn't go far enough. By contrast, 31 percent of white evangelicals think the US has reached the right level of support, while 46 percent want the US to support Israel more.

Add evangelicals, Jews, and broad public support together, and you get consistent, bipartisan support for Israel.

There's also a huge pro-Israel lobby — but how effective are they really?

No account of US-Israel relations can ignore the American Israel Public Affairs Committee — AIPAC for short. AIPAC is America's largest pro-Israel lobby. Surveys of Capitol Hill insiders conducted by Fortune (1997) and National Journal (2005) ranked it the second-most powerful lobbying shop in Washington, after (respectively) the AARP and National Federation of Independent Business. Neither survey is particularly statistically rigorous, so don't take the specific rankings too seriously. And AIPAC loses on plenty of issues. However, the surveys do suggest that AIPAC is perceived as hugely powerful within Washington.

Saying that AIPAC pushes US foreign policy in a more pro-Israel direction isn't controversial. The big, and extremely contentious, question is just how much AIPAC actually matters. Is the group actually steering US politics and foreign policy in a direction it wouldn't go on its own?

AIPAC IS AN EXTREMELY INFLUENTIAL LOBBYING GROUP, BUT ITS POWER IS LINKED TO THE OTHER SOURCES OF US SUPPORT FOR ISRAEL

The major flashpoint here is John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt's The Israel Lobby and American Foreign Policy, which began as an 2006 essay and evolved into a book. The two eminent international relations scholars argued that there's no way to explain the US-Israel relationship, from an IR perspective, other than as AIPAC and its allies pushing the US to act counter to its own interests. They reject that either strategy or shared values fully explain the US support for Israel, so lobbying must. "The unmatched power of the Israel Lobby," Walt and Mearsheimer write, is "the" explanation for America's continued strong support for Israel.

This argument is hugely controversial, including among international relations theorists. Some argued that The Israel Lobby creepily invoked classic anti-Semitic tropes of Jews secretly controlling the government. Others dismissed it as, in one particularly memorable phrase, "piss-poor, monocausal social science."

One of the main criticisms of Walt and Mearsheimer's thesis is that they don't present very much direct evidence that AIPAC lobbying influenced specific votes. Another criticism is that Walt and Mearsheimer premise their thesis on the argument that Israel is neither strategically nor morally worthy of American support, and so policymakers must be supporting Israel because they've been coerced into it by AIPAC, whereas a number of policymakers will tell you they earnestly believe the alliance is worthwhile absent lobbying. Critics also argue that the definition of "Israel Lobby" beyond AIPAC used in the book is so large as to encompass basically the entire American foreign policy establishment.

Whatever you think of this debate, it can be easy to get lost in a binary between "the Israel lobby is all that matters" and "the Israel lobby is irrelevant." What's clearly true is that AIPAC is highly influential, but also that its power is linked to the other sources of US support for Israel; it does well on whipping up support for bills that are already in line with public opinion.

AIPAC doesn't always win. For instance, it lost a major fight in Congress when it pushed for more sanctions on Iran in February 2014; the sanctions were likely designed to kill the ongoing US-Iran nuclear negotiations. AIPAC's influence is a product of financial resources and power, sure, but also of choosing to push for policies that have public support and are consonant with American grand strategy in the Middle East.

Could US support for Israel change?

It's hard to know where one driver of America's Israel policy ends and another begins. For instance: early in his administration, President Obama pushed Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to halt settlement growth in the West Bank; Netanyahu resisted this in part by rallying his allies in Congress. Netanyahu's allies in both parties, who are always eager to appear pro-Israel, pressured Obama to drop his anti-settlements push, which he did.

The question here is whether, in this case and others, US foreign policy interests or US domestic politics was ultimately more consequential to driving the US-Israel relationship. For example, would Obama have pushed harder against settlements had Netanyahu not been able to call up so many allies in Congress? Were those members of Congress primarily driven by pure domestic politics, which do favor pro-Israel policies, by an earnest concern that Obama's approach was bad for Israelis, or by a belief that Obama was hurting US foreign policy interests?

In thinking about the future of US-Israel relations, it's much more helpful to examine what might cause these broad-bush factors to change. In simpler terms: is there a scenario under which the US and Israel drift apart?

"US-ISRAELI RELATIONS ARE DEPENDENT UPON ISRAEL'S HAVING A PARTICULAR IDENTITY"

Barnett, the George Washington University scholar, sees Israel's continued occupation of the West Bank as the greatest threat to the relationship. He notes that, in the early '90s, Congress made a $10 billion loan guarantee conditional on the fact that Israel didn't use any of the money for West Bank settlements. Israel's prime minister, Yitzhak Shamir, tried to fight it, but the Bush administration stood firm. Shamir lost, both in Congress and with the executive, because the Israeli position wasn't consistent with the US vision of a Western, democratic Israel.

"US-Israeli relations," Barnett writes, "are dependent upon Israel's having a particular identity." That may even be true among American Jews, as journalist Peter Beinart argued in an essay almost as controversial as Walt and Mearsheimer's. Beinart argues that Israel's ongoing occupation of the West Bank is already alienating younger and more secular Jews, and that AIPAC and other mainstream Jewish organizations risk losing their broad base of support unless they become more willing to criticize Israel on these points.

Barnett's conclusion only follows if you think "shared values" are the linchpin of US-Israel relations. Maybe the US would still think it's strategically useful to support Israel. Maybe Israel remains popular among certain Christians and the broader public regardless of its Palestinian policy. Maybe AIPAC remains strong enough to keep Congress in line. Maybe Israel comes to an agreement with the Palestinians and Barnett's point becomes moot.

For now, though, there's little evidence that American support for Israel is fundamentally breaking down — whether you think that's a good or bad thing.
Source

I think the bold part sums up my post nicely. Israel has been a close ally through the cold war and beyond and they're in a sympathetic position - surrounded by countries that want them gone and dislike the US.
JonnyBNoHo
Profile Joined July 2011
United States6277 Posts
January 22 2015 23:50 GMT
#31808
On January 23 2015 08:46 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.

Shall we also make the streets run rivers of red with the blood of capitalists, comrade?

No, no, the streets need to run white!

On January 21 2015 15:25 Sub40APM wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 21 2015 13:38 JonnyBNoHo wrote:
I'm curious how Dems plan on building a bunch of roads with out evil oil-derived asphalt or CO2 producing concrete

Pulverized bones of Republicans recycled by the Fema camps, I hope.
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
January 22 2015 23:58 GMT
#31809
On January 23 2015 07:33 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 07:15 zlefin wrote:
On January 23 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 23 2015 05:54 zlefin wrote:
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.

Instead of devising a way to remove all of congress why not fight the disease and not the symptom? The US needs a complete redesign of the entire political system if you want to fix the current situation.


what I'm talking about already is a major redesign; and it is fighting a part of the disease. Structural change is important. It's also a clear objective, do you have a clear roadmap for a complete redesign that would actually accomplish something and work?

"lets vote out all of congress" doesn't solve any part of the underlying problem.

And no ofc i dont have it all layed out but if you cant see the problems with your political system then it explains why the problems exist and keep getting worse.

Massively limit spending allowed by candidates, abolish superpac's, politicians should not be deciding on voter districts, abolish 'first to the post' system. abolish filibuster, the list go's on and on.

And yes XDaunt i agree that corruption is a large part of the problem.


I disagree; as I said, sometimes the issue is NOT with an individual, but with institutional dynamics, and things getting passed on from one group to the next over time, and a complete change can fix that (especially if you include rules rewrites and such with it).
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands21997 Posts
January 23 2015 00:11 GMT
#31810
On January 23 2015 08:58 zlefin wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 07:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:15 zlefin wrote:
On January 23 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 23 2015 05:54 zlefin wrote:
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.

Instead of devising a way to remove all of congress why not fight the disease and not the symptom? The US needs a complete redesign of the entire political system if you want to fix the current situation.


what I'm talking about already is a major redesign; and it is fighting a part of the disease. Structural change is important. It's also a clear objective, do you have a clear roadmap for a complete redesign that would actually accomplish something and work?

"lets vote out all of congress" doesn't solve any part of the underlying problem.

And no ofc i dont have it all layed out but if you cant see the problems with your political system then it explains why the problems exist and keep getting worse.

Massively limit spending allowed by candidates, abolish superpac's, politicians should not be deciding on voter districts, abolish 'first to the post' system. abolish filibuster, the list go's on and on.

And yes XDaunt i agree that corruption is a large part of the problem.


I disagree; as I said, sometimes the issue is NOT with an individual, but with institutional dynamics, and things getting passed on from one group to the next over time, and a complete change can fix that (especially if you include rules rewrites and such with it).

Would it solve the large influence money has on elections? or how 1 part of government can effectively block all legislation for prolonged periods of time? or the ability of politicians to redraw voter districts in such as way as to keep themselves in power?

No it does none of these things unless you think politicians are people of great social justice who are corrupted by the institutional dynamics rather then them being humans who have basic desire of power and wealth.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
zlefin
Profile Blog Joined October 2012
United States7689 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-01-23 00:26:23
January 23 2015 00:14 GMT
#31811
I am no fool, and it does have an effect.
There has been research showing that for example: the amount of bullying in an area can persist long after the original people have all moved away, and even after the mix of local people (ethnicity, religion) has shifted; because the behavior is passed from one group of kids to the next one.
Sometimes there really are issues of institutional dynamics that have gone bad, and they can be fixed by a renewal, if you don't want to believe that, fine, but please stop nonsensically denying the possibility.

Also, sometimes the problem isn't with an individual person being bad (and hence voted out) but that some people just can't/don't work well together.

It's not a panacea or anything, but it is an incremental improvement over the existing system which fixes an existing problem.
Great read: http://shorensteincenter.org/news-coverage-2016-general-election/ great book on democracy: http://press.princeton.edu/titles/10671.html zlefin is grumpier due to long term illness. Ignoring some users.
wei2coolman
Profile Joined November 2010
United States60033 Posts
January 23 2015 02:09 GMT
#31812
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

The problem isn't just term limit, gerrymandering is a much bigger issue imo.
liftlift > tsm
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 23 2015 02:11 GMT
#31813
On January 23 2015 08:46 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.

Shall we also make the streets run rivers of red with the blood of capitalists, comrade?


Where is the anti-capitalist sentiment in Jormundr's quote? I don't see anything about capitalism at all.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 23 2015 02:22 GMT
#31814
On January 23 2015 09:11 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 08:58 zlefin wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:15 zlefin wrote:
On January 23 2015 06:33 Gorsameth wrote:
On January 23 2015 05:54 zlefin wrote:
What we really need is rules to deal with congress as a whole; so when everyone hates congress, we can simply vote to kick them ALL out of congress, and bring in other people, instead of having to vote individually on each candidate.

Sometimes the problem is not with any particular person, but is somewhere in the institutional dynamics; and we don't have a good way to address that.

Instead of devising a way to remove all of congress why not fight the disease and not the symptom? The US needs a complete redesign of the entire political system if you want to fix the current situation.


what I'm talking about already is a major redesign; and it is fighting a part of the disease. Structural change is important. It's also a clear objective, do you have a clear roadmap for a complete redesign that would actually accomplish something and work?

"lets vote out all of congress" doesn't solve any part of the underlying problem.

And no ofc i dont have it all layed out but if you cant see the problems with your political system then it explains why the problems exist and keep getting worse.

Massively limit spending allowed by candidates, abolish superpac's, politicians should not be deciding on voter districts, abolish 'first to the post' system. abolish filibuster, the list go's on and on.

And yes XDaunt i agree that corruption is a large part of the problem.


I disagree; as I said, sometimes the issue is NOT with an individual, but with institutional dynamics, and things getting passed on from one group to the next over time, and a complete change can fix that (especially if you include rules rewrites and such with it).

Would it solve the large influence money has on elections? or how 1 part of government can effectively block all legislation for prolonged periods of time? or the ability of politicians to redraw voter districts in such as way as to keep themselves in power?

No it does none of these things unless you think politicians are people of great social justice who are corrupted by the institutional dynamics rather then them being humans who have basic desire of power and wealth.

I'm with Zlefin on this. It's naive and nonsensical to hope for any big changes.

Read the epic works about LBJ by Robert Caro - the South has been blocking legislation for a very long time now and been very successful at ensuring any legislation that does go through has their interests compromised and baked into it.

The American system has plenty of flaws. But American politicians know how to play this game and they're on top because they're good at it. So I wouldn't expect them to voluntarily change the rules, particularly if it hurts their chances in future elections.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 23 2015 02:25 GMT
#31815
On January 23 2015 11:11 IgnE wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 08:46 coverpunch wrote:
On January 23 2015 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.

Shall we also make the streets run rivers of red with the blood of capitalists, comrade?


Where is the anti-capitalist sentiment in Jormundr's quote? I don't see anything about capitalism at all.

It's a response to the idea of just executing every current member of Congress. Let's just go whole hog with the communist revolution so long as we're going around killing leaders. Or are we talking about going more in a corporatist fascist direction?
Jormundr
Profile Joined July 2011
United States1678 Posts
January 23 2015 02:29 GMT
#31816
On January 23 2015 11:25 coverpunch wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 11:11 IgnE wrote:
On January 23 2015 08:46 coverpunch wrote:
On January 23 2015 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.

Shall we also make the streets run rivers of red with the blood of capitalists, comrade?


Where is the anti-capitalist sentiment in Jormundr's quote? I don't see anything about capitalism at all.

It's a response to the idea of just executing every current member of Congress. Let's just go whole hog with the communist revolution so long as we're going around killing leaders. Or are we talking about going more in a corporatist fascist direction?

I mean I'm not dead set on killing all of them at once. We could also just implement a powerball-style lottery to see which member of congress gets executed each day (or week or month). It could be cast in real time on CSPAN if you purchase a premium season pass.

Better?
Capitalism is beneficial for people who work harder than other people. Under capitalism the only way to make more money is to work harder then your competitors whether they be other companies or workers. ~ Vegetarian
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 23 2015 02:32 GMT
#31817
Only communists or "corporate fascists" execute government officials now? What about autocrats? Democratic uprisings? French revolution? You come across as someone who doesn't know the first thing about capitalism, communism, or "corporate fascism."
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 23 2015 02:41 GMT
#31818
On January 23 2015 11:29 Jormundr wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 23 2015 11:25 coverpunch wrote:
On January 23 2015 11:11 IgnE wrote:
On January 23 2015 08:46 coverpunch wrote:
On January 23 2015 08:42 Jormundr wrote:
On January 23 2015 07:51 Introvert wrote:
Term limits would do wonders. I don't think the system needs any other major revisions- at least not any that liberals would agree to.

I would start by executing every current member of congress. Amend the constitution to reflect the lifetime salaries that these people receive - they may not hold any other office or be paid by any other institution during or after their stint as a national legislator, under penalty of death. Also execute any legislators who fail to disclose relevant conflicts of interest.

EZPZ

Governance will never be a patriotic venture while it remains a supremely profitable one.

Shall we also make the streets run rivers of red with the blood of capitalists, comrade?


Where is the anti-capitalist sentiment in Jormundr's quote? I don't see anything about capitalism at all.

It's a response to the idea of just executing every current member of Congress. Let's just go whole hog with the communist revolution so long as we're going around killing leaders. Or are we talking about going more in a corporatist fascist direction?

I mean I'm not dead set on killing all of them at once. We could also just implement a powerball-style lottery to see which member of congress gets executed each day (or week or month). It could be cast in real time on CSPAN if you purchase a premium season pass.

Better?

No way, man. You gotta read Machiavelli again. Doing it like that will only incite the survivors and people against you and breeds hatred. You have to do it all at once so that you're feared and cruel, but prudent and tempered.
coverpunch
Profile Joined December 2011
United States2093 Posts
January 23 2015 02:42 GMT
#31819
On January 23 2015 11:32 IgnE wrote:
Only communists or "corporate fascists" execute government officials now? What about autocrats? Democratic uprisings? French revolution? You come across as someone who doesn't know the first thing about capitalism, communism, or "corporate fascism."

Taking ourselves too seriously again, are we?
IgnE
Profile Joined November 2010
United States7681 Posts
January 23 2015 02:45 GMT
#31820
It's just annoying to see your stupid shit cluttering up the thread. At least make it interesting.
The unrealistic sound of these propositions is indicative, not of their utopian character, but of the strength of the forces which prevent their realization.
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