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On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around.
It's human nature, isn't it. If you've been through it once, you MAKE SURE it never ever happens to you again.
:/
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On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany.
On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there?
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Zionists had no right to kick citizens out of their land in favor of their own people.
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On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there?
Stop playing stupid. If i was American I'd have a problem if the Chinese bought up all the land in California to turn it into a Chinese state. That doesn't mean I have a problem with Chinese people buying land.
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1019 Posts
On November 17 2012 01:24 Noam wrote:
The question is white_horse:
Are you more afraid of a trained military using precision munitions only against military targets,
or a group who purposefully targets civilians and their definition of victory is your death.
Well like I said, if we do not consider any of the circumstances behind the situation, it is ironic that israel is sitting in the position of the side that has disproportionately more power and ability to do harm, just like the position nazi germany was in during the 1930s 1940s - the roles are totally reversed from then and now.
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On November 17 2012 01:36 sekritzzz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there? Stop playing stupid. If i was American I'd have a problem if the Chinese bought up all the land in California to turn it into a Chinese state. That doesn't mean I have a problem with Chinese people buying land. If you want to call me stupid, just call me stupid: I'm not playing anything. I've already pointed out that they weren't buying land in an Arab state, they were buying land in a province of the Ottoman Empire and later the British Empire. From willing sellers.
Secondly, I'm honestly not sure what would prevent Chinese people from buying up all the land in California, if everyone in California decided to sell their land to someone in China. We would prevent them from declaring a state, of course, because legal governance of a land is not the same as legal ownership of land. You seem to be conflating the two.
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On November 17 2012 01:24 Noam wrote:
The question is white_horse:
Are you more afraid of a trained military using precision munitions only against military targets,
or a group who purposefully targets civilians and their definition of victory is your death.
This is going to be repeated ad nauseum until people just assume it's that simple, I assume?
Last time this happened, 2009: The conflict resulted in between 1,166 and 1,417 Palestinian and 13 Israeli deaths (4 from friendly fire). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_War
This is disgustingly disproportionate. Israel justifies this by a simple "They started it". Hamas is a problem, but it is a problem that Israel must take some credit for. Israel has been relentless. There are no substantial humanitarian efforts, no efforts to make a real cultural change towards peace. Any desire for peace from Israel is very, very tongue-in-cheek. They push their land borders as far as they can, and expect a "thank you" in return.
Palestinians are a large group of people living on a walled-in sliver of land. No one outside the Muslim community cares for them. No one supports them. They live under the shadow of Israel's military. There is an anti-Israel, antisemitic sentiment that, frankly, Israel seems content to foster.
But we're supposed to cheer that Israel "defends" itself by invading this small sliver of land with its vastly superior military?
It's so tiresome. I guess I hope Israel gets it over with and just obliterates the populace quickly, because they're giving this cluttered, secluded populace no reason for hope. They're happy to foster more hate, more death. If it weren't for PR, I think Palestine would be done for, obliterated. It's so sad what the WZO has become, and so sad that the Western world is content to see this small, secluded, cluttered settlement of Gaza be slowly squeezed to death.
If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? Would the conditions of mainland Israel come close to the deplorable conditions of this "strip" known as Gaza? No. It's a fucking joke. It's like our post 9/11 invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan -- it's completely disproportionate. 3,000 American deaths somehow justifies the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians "over there". And the media is largely accomplice to this, happy to repeat the excuses and talking points.
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Not informed enough to pick sides here, but thank God we can all sit here and post on Teamliquid and play video games. We are part of the lucky sperm pool.
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And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted.
So... the proper and justified response to land-buying is violence?
Jews commit violence - bad. Period.
Arabs / Muslims commit violence - Oh well even if it wasn't in response to violence, it's still justified. Somehow.
The double standard applied to Israel and in this case to Jews is ridiculous.
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On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there?
So Israel is only defending itself. Well guess what, Palestinians also say they are only defending themselves, who to believe?
And as far as British Mandate is concerned I know about the zionist terrorist organizations of the time like Lehi or Irgun who tried to takeover, by....bombing and targeted killings. I don't remember there were any palestinian terrorist organization at that time, so the forefathers of present day terrorism could very well be Zionists.
And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land?
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This is disgustingly disproportionate.
How?
And as far as British Mandate is concerned I know about the zionist terrorist organizations of the time like Lehi or Irgun who tried to takeover, by....bombing and targeted killings. I don't remember there were any palestinian terrorist organization at that time, so the forefathers of present day terrorism could very well be Zionists.
The forefathers of present day terrorism are the anarchist/socialist bombmakers (and throwers) of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.
Arabs were shooting up Jews at the same time Jews were shooting up Brits, the Arabs viewed the British government in Palestine as if not their ally then at least the enemy of their enemy (the Zionists) as after the Balfour Declaration British policy turned to being against Jewish immigration to Palestine.
And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land?
Some Palestinians were urged or forced to leave by the Arab armies that invaded the mandate.
Some Palestinians left on their own to avoid the fighting, in the expectation that the Arabs would win and they could return after it was over.
Some Palestinians were forced out by Jewish militias. No one has ever been able to give an authoritative breakdown of how many were forced out by Jews, how many were forced out or encouraged to leave by other Arabs, and how many left on their own, but it was at least a substantial minority who were forced out by Jews.
Jews were forced from their homes by Arabs as well but since the Jews won the 1948 war they were able to return. Most of 1947 consisted of Arabs trying to cut off road connections to Jewish kibbutzim and towns (to starve them out) and Jews trying to reopen the lines of transportation and communication.
And of course there were about 800,000 Jews living in Arab countries forced out after 1948, but no one gives a shit about those entirely forced expulsions because Israel bad. Those Jews weren't refugees long because unlike the Arab countries (who stuffed the Palestinian refugees into camps where they STILL live today because the Arab countries DO NOT LET THEM MOVE OUT, and refused to give them any kind of legal status in their countries) Israel welcomed the Jewish refugees in.
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On November 17 2012 01:53 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there? And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land?
I could be talking out of my *** here, but couldn't it be a simple case of Palestinians living on land that is technically "not theirs"?
I'm just trying to argue a technicality, not taking anything into context.
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On November 17 2012 01:54 DeepElemBlues wrote:How? Show nested quote +And as far as British Mandate is concerned I know about the zionist terrorist organizations of the time like Lehi or Irgun who tried to takeover, by....bombing and targeted killings. I don't remember there were any palestinian terrorist organization at that time, so the forefathers of present day terrorism could very well be Zionists. The forefathers of present day terrorism are the anarchist/socialist bombmakers (and throwers) of the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Arabs were shooting up Jews at the same time Jews were shooting up Brits, the Arabs viewed the British government in Palestine as if not their ally then at least the enemy of their enemy (the Zionists) as after the Balfour Declaration British policy turned to being against Jewish immigration to Palestine. Show nested quote +And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land? Some Palestinians were urged or forced to leave by the Arab armies that invaded the mandate. Some Palestinians left on their own to avoid the fighting, in the expectation that the Arabs would win and they could return after it was over. Some Palestinians were forced out by Jewish militias. No one has ever been able to give an authoritative breakdown of how many were forced out by Jews and how many left on their own, but it was at least a substantial minority who were forced out. Jews were forced from their homes by Arabs as well but since the Jews won the 1948 war they were able to return. Most of 1947 consisted of Arabs trying to cut off road connections to Jewish kibbutzim and towns (to starve them out) and Jews trying to reopen the lines of transportation and communication.
You are just randomly spitting lies, I guess. So know ''Some'' Palestinians where forced out and you are sure they were the minority and what Arab army invaded the British Mandate? So Arabs persecuted the Jews and thankfully when they managed to establish a state that helped Jews return to their homes?
I know nothing about the things you speak, care to provide some substantial material so I may expand my knowledge?
You mention 800,000 Jews forced out of their homes, are you sure they didn't willingly escape to Israel, because they had expected Israel to return it to them one day?
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FREE PALESTINE LONG LIVE GAZA
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On November 17 2012 02:04 fluidin wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:53 Art.FeeL wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there? And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land? I could be taking out of my *** here, but couldn't it be a simple case of Palestinians living on land that is technically "not theirs"? However unfair that may sound.
No, it was a mixture of fleeing and forced expulsion, just like in every war ever... but Israel bad so you understand why it makes the Israeli side illegitimate while Arabs doing exactly the same thing is a big shrug because Israel bad.
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145-119-105
Neither is leading, with Israel a close second and Palestine close behind.
However, I would say that this poll refutes claims on either side that TL is biased.
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On November 17 2012 02:07 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:04 fluidin wrote:On November 17 2012 01:53 Art.FeeL wrote:On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there? And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land? I could be taking out of my *** here, but couldn't it be a simple case of Palestinians living on land that is technically "not theirs"? However unfair that may sound. No, it was a mixture of fleeing and forced expulsion, just like in every war ever... but Israel bad so you understand why it makes the Israeli side illegitimate while Arabs doing exactly the same thing is a big shrug because Israel bad.
Every pro Israeli poster here, is taking this shitty strategy of presenting Israel as a victim. You know the strongest military power in the Middle East is a lone sheep surrounded by wolves. Nice black and white world you have there
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Right, so I was talking outta my ***.
Anyway, regarding why Israel actions are under so much more scrutiny as compared to the Arabs, isn't it because of how information is widely available in the snap of a finger as compared to the past? And how Israel is held to a higher standard, because well, they are a militarily and economically capable democracy?
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I stand by Israel all the way!
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Well, I don't stand by either of them (maybe a tad more towards Israel for this particular conflict, since I have no idea whether this really was a political stunt), and I find certain actions on both sides absolutely deplorable, but I definitely am more disgusted by Hamas and whatever backers they have.
I pity the Palestinian civilians the most.
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EPT
