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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
You're still at it, god... It's not a question of the use being deliberate or not, it's forbidden in civilians areas, that's it, so you can't use it in Gaza, a civilian a-r-e-a. Not true, you can say it all you want but it's still the same crap. It's banned in built-up areas. | ||
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Sn0_Man
Tebellong44238 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:04 WhiteDog wrote: You're still at it, god... It's not a question of the use being deliberate or not, it's forbidden in civilians areas, that's it, so you can't use it in Gaza, a civilian a-r-e-a. Out of curiosity, where then is the military area Israel should focus on to prevent the missiles being launched at THEIR civilians? (I'm not necessarily condoning anything here, just curious as to what you think the appropriate response to having rockets launched at your civilians is). | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote: Ironic, because so much can be said similarly for Israel. If you go back over Israel's 70 year history, there are countless wars where they've had to defend themselves from literally every one of their surrounding countries, starting from the first day of their existence. This image of being surrounded and helpless is a reality Israeli's live with, as the rest of the region they live in hates them and wishes nothing short of their death. This is a ridiculous notion. There is absolutely no reason for Israel (or the US with 9/11) to sit back and allow terrorism on its citizens. In fact I believe that it's the governments role to protect its citizens and vehemently defend their right to a safe existence. If you can have a course of action to ensure your citizens can live safely, I personally support following that route. The unfortunate part in all this is that Hamas and these terrorists cells are well aware that shooting rockets into civilian areas with result in a military response from Israel. They know their actions will result in the deaths of their fellow Palestinians (it's happened frequently) yet they choose to do so anyways. They have a disregard for their own lives, the lives of the Israeli citizens, and the lives of the Palestinian citizens. Also, Israel dropped leaflets into these Palestinian cities to warn the civilians to avoid Hamas locations and weapons caches due to incoming airstrikes. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in all this, but there's at least some measure of due diligence being taken to protect the sanctity of human life that is completely devoid from the Arab side of the issue. edit; need to specify This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated. The main problem is that Israel was strong enough to prevent the war many time and never did so. They always attacked preemtively, like in the 6 days war. They were not the victims as you are painting them to be. They also used wars as an excuse to expand their territories (taking part of Egypt just giving it back due to the international community ?). Also "Palestinians terrorists suck at not getting killed"... seriously ? Do you not see most of us don't care about palestinians "terrorists" the main problem is that most of the people getting killed at civilians, wife, children, not to mention injured and crippled people. On November 17 2012 03:10 Sn0_Man wrote: Out of curiosity, where then is the military area Israel should focus on to prevent the missiles being launched at THEIR civilians? (I'm not necessarily condoning anything here, just curious as to what you think the appropriate response to having rockets launched at your civilians is). My main point is that if they didn't had such a behavior since the beginning, they would never had to defend theirselves for so long because the rockets would be over since ten years or so. Somehow all they do is going in, killing people just enough to make them hate their guts, and pulling back, making sure the rockets will continue to fly off until all gazans are dead. You cannot assure peace without some sort of sacrifice : accept to give back some land, stop taking Palestinians part of Jerusalem, sitting down to the table, etc. And all that despite the rockets. Terrorism will never stop if Israel continue to kill 1000 palestinians each time a rocket destroy their sidewalk. When you are the dominant force, when you have the power, you have the responsability to have higher standard. If not, you will just be hated until either you or your opponent die. | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
Also "Palestinians terrorists suck at not getting killed"... seriously ? Do you not see most of us don't care about palestinians "terrorists" the main problem is that most of the people getting killed at civilians, wife, children, not to mention injured and crippled people. Most of the people getting killed are Palestinian terrorists. My main point is that if they didn't had such a behavior since the beginning, they would never had to defend theirselves for so long because the rockets would be over since ten years or so. Somehow all they do is going in, killing people just enough to make them hate them, and pulling back, making sure the rockets will continue to fly off until all gazans are dead. You cannot assure peace without some sort of sacrifice : accept to give back some land, stop taking Palestinians part of Jerusalem, sitting down to the table, etc. And all that despite the rockets. Terrorism will never stop if Israel continue to kill 1000 palestinians each time a rocket destroy their sidewalk. If Israel's intent is to kill all Gazans, they should hurry it up, at the current rate it will take well over 1000 years. This is the kind of ridiculous garbage that is thrown at Israel all the time. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:13 DeepElemBlues wrote: Most of the people getting killed are Palestinian terrorists. Prove it ? Ho no you can't. | ||
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mGGNoRe
Australia124 Posts
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Alanore
Turkey26 Posts
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8SXpa.jpg) | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
So then, if that's the way it is you also can't prove most of the people getting killed are innocent civilians. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:10 WhiteDog wrote: My main point is that if they didn't had such a behavior since the beginning, they would never had to defend theirselves for so long because the rockets would be over since ten years or so. Somehow all they do is going in, killing people just enough to make them hate them, and pulling back, making sure the rockets will continue to fly off until all gazans are dead. You cannot assure peace without some sort of sacrifice : accept to give back some land, stop taking Palestinians part of Jerusalem, sitting down to the table, etc. And all that despite the rockets. Terrorism will never stop if Israel continue to kill 1000 palestinians each time a rocket destroy their sidewalk. When you are the dominant force, when you have the power, you have the responsability to have higher standard. If not, you will just be hated until either you or your opponent die. This is just silly. You can't undo what happened 60-70 years ago. Are Israel's hands dirty? Absolutely. However, it's pretty clear that the Palestinians have been the prime instigators of the conflict for the past twenty years. They walked away from the peace talks. They keep firing the rockets. I don't have any problem with Israel retaliating when attacked, and no one else should, either. | ||
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Durp
Canada3117 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:10 WhiteDog wrote: My main point is that if they didn't had such a behavior since the beginning, they would never had to defend theirselves for so long because the rockets would be over since ten years or so. Somehow all they do is going in, killing people just enough to make them hate them, and pulling back, making sure the rockets will continue to fly off until all gazans are dead. You cannot assure peace without some sort of sacrifice : accept to give back some land, stop taking Palestinians part of Jerusalem, sitting down to the table, etc. And all that despite the rockets. Terrorism will never stop if Israel continue to kill 1000 palestinians each time a rocket destroy their sidewalk. When you are the dominant force, when you have the power, you have the responsability to have higher standard. If not, you will just be hated until either you or your opponent die. A lot of this thread has devolved into some hearsay or points made with sketchy sourcing, but this one bothers me a lot. There has been nothing since 1948 when Israel was formed to give any credence to believing that is true. Terrorist actions against Israelis has been common place for decades, I really don't think anything has happened to warrant the belief that rocket attacks would stop at anything short of Israel not existing. You cannot assure peace without some sort of sacrifice : accept to give back some land, stop taking Palestinians part of Jerusalem, sitting down to the table, etc. And all that despite the rockets. This has happened. Israel has made many attempts over the past 20 or so years at peace. So have the Palestinians. The unfortunate part is that it is almost always Hamas or other Arab terrorist cells that derail the process with violence. Ultimately, if the Palestinians do not put a stop to this with a focused and deliberate attempt to curtail terrorist activities in Gaza (which they haven't) it's unfair and I'd say impossible to expect Israel to continue to hand out a carte blanche of faith. Terrorism will never stop if Israel continue to kill 1000 palestinians each time a rocket destroy their sidewalk. Am I to take this as: 'Israel should let the rockets go until a whole bunch of people die, then they deserve to do something about it" ? The Palestinian rocket is intended to kill civilians, and has no legitimate targeting. It's the Hamas attempt at shooting fish in a barrel. | ||
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Leporello
United States2845 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:20 xDaunt wrote: This is just silly. You can't undo what happened 60-70 years ago. Are Israel's hands dirty? Absolutely. However, it's pretty clear that the Palestinians have been the prime instigators of the conflict for the past twenty years. They walked away from the peace talks. They keep firing the rockets. I don't have any problem with Israel retaliating when attacked, and no one else should, either. It's a constant cycle that people seek to reduce this to something completely dry and simple. No one is arguing about the right to self-defense. No one is arguing that Hamas is a terrorist organization. But invading Gaza? Wrecking homes of known innocents in the one of the most condense and poor populations on earth? Declaring that all the thousand+ people killed in these invasions -- or even the majority -- are terrorists, without any proof? That is what is argued, and the strawman responses are all the same. It's tiring, and I'm done. Hopefully Israel finishes the job and completely destroys Gaza quickly, as it seems the notion of discretion is to be completely forever disregarded. So they might as well. | ||
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hooahah
3752 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:18 Alanore wrote: I can understand if a country wants to defend itself but i don't understand killing civilians. You just can not kill civilians as a warning. source on this? this looks both nothing like a destroyed building with 40 dead people, nor do I remember anything like this. Google turns up nothing too. that's also not the damage done by a Kasam rocket...yeah, this picture is complete nonsense. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:24 Leporello wrote: It's a constant cycle that people seek to reduce this to something completely dry and simple. No one is arguing about the right to self-defense. No one is arguing that Hamas is a terrorist organization. But invading Gaza? Wrecking homes of known innocents in the one of the most condense and poor populations on earth? Declaring that all the thousand+ people killed in these invasions -- or even the majority -- are terrorists, without any proof? That is what is argued, and the strawman responses are all the same. And the alternative is letting Hamas attack Israel with impunity? Sorry, but if the Palestinians aren't going to get their shit together and oust the terrorists that attack Israel, then Israel obviously has to do itself. Again, let me remind everyone that the Palestinians have elected Hamas to political power in Gaza. Though I don't like seeing civilians die, I'm not going to blame or judge Israel for doing what it has to do. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:23 Durp wrote: A lot of this thread has devolved into some hearsay or points made with sketchy sourcing, but this one bothers me a lot. There has been nothing since 1948 when Israel was formed to give any credence to believing that is true. Terrorist actions against Israelis has been common place for decades, I really don't think anything has happened to warrant the belief that rocket attacks would stop at anything short of Israel not existing. This has happened. Israel has made many attempts over the past 20 or so years at peace. So have the Palestinians. The unfortunate part is that it is almost always Hamas or other Arab terrorist cells that derail the process with violence. Ultimately, if the Palestinians do not put a stop to this with a focused and deliberate attempt to curtail terrorist activities in Gaza (which they haven't) it's unfair and I'd say impossible to expect Israel to continue to hand out a carte blanche of faith. Am I to take this as: 'Israel should let the rockets go until a whole bunch of people die, then they deserve to do something about it" ? This picture is misleading. The Israeli rocket is military grade, and has a targeting system. It's intent is to not hit civilians, and they have the ability to try to their best to avoid civilian deaths. The Palestinian rocket is intended to kill civilians, and has no legitimate targeting. It's the Hamas attempt at shooting fish in a barrel. Because you cannot expect any result if you continue bombing the shit out of Arabs and starving their familly ? Also I'd say the Palestinians evolved in the right way if you look at those numbers (coming from Israel's ministry of foreign affairs http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Terrorism- Obstacle to Peace/Palestinian terror since 2000/Victims of Palestinian Violence and Terrorism sinc.htm) ![[image loading]](http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/181B91B2-BDF3-4BC2-AA23-59C4D8816F87/0/wounded20017.jpg) | ||
Noam
Israel2209 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:18 Alanore wrote: You just can not kill civilians as a warning. Israel never killed a civilian as a warning. We drop leaflets from the sky begging civilians to stay away from known weapon caches. We even CALL ON THE PHONE to people who are neighbors of a house we are about to bomb. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:28 Noam wrote: Israel never killed a civilian as a warning. We drop leaflets from the sky begging civilians to stay away from known weapon caches. We even CALL ON THE PHONE to people who are neighbors of a house we are about to bomb. And you don't use civilians as meat shield either I suppose ? Your army is not righteous, it's an army, it's made to kill, stop dreaming. | ||
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nucleo
292 Posts
stop taking Palestinians part of Jerusalem you mean the part that the jews built? im sorry to quote only a small part but this seems like a good example to your entire thought process. | ||
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WhiteDog
France8650 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:30 nucleo wrote: you mean the part that the jews built? im sorry to quote only a small part but this seems like a good example to your entire thought process. It doesn't matter who built it, it's their part according to internationals laws ? This is what I was referring to as "sacrifice". Or do I need to ask the US to give my statue of liberty back cause you know "the french built it". | ||
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EtherealBlade
660 Posts
On November 17 2012 03:28 Noam wrote: Israel never killed a civilian as a warning. We drop leaflets from the sky begging civilians to stay away from known weapon caches. We even CALL ON THE PHONE to people who are neighbors of a house we are about to bomb. Wow, never imagined Israel to be so nice. | ||
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nucleo
292 Posts
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