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Because every last person who has contributed to wikipedia is utterly unbiased and only recites facts... 
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On November 17 2012 02:22 Sn0_Man wrote:Because every last person who has contributed to wikipedia is utterly unbiased and only recites facts...
Well, on a highly controversial article - like any concerning the Israeli-Arab wars - you're pretty much guaranteed to get a wide range of sources and information from all sides that you can draw your own conclusion from, instead of an article where one side dominates the edit wars.
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On November 17 2012 01:47 Leporello wrote:
But we're supposed to cheer that Israel "defends" itself by invading this small sliver of land with its vastly superior military?
It's so tiresome. I guess I hope Israel gets it over with and just obliterates the populace quickly, because they're giving this cluttered, secluded populace no reason for hope. They're happy to foster more hate, more death. If it weren't for PR, I think Palestine would be done for, obliterated. It's so sad what the WZO has become, and so sad that the Western world is content to see this small, secluded, cluttered settlement of Gaza be slowly squeezed to death.
Ironic, because so much can be said similarly for Israel. If you go back over Israel's 70 year history, there are countless wars where they've had to defend themselves from literally every one of their surrounding countries, starting from the first day of their existence. This image of being surrounded and helpless is a reality Israeli's live with, as the rest of the region they live in hates them and wishes nothing short of their death.
If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? Would the conditions of mainland Israel come close to the deplorable conditions of this "strip" known as Gaza? No. It's a fucking joke. It's like our post 9/11 invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan -- it's completely disproportionate. 3,000 American deaths somehow justifies the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians "over there". And the media is largely accomplice to this, happy to repeat the excuses and talking points.
This is a ridiculous notion.
There is absolutely no reason for Israel (or the US with 9/11) to sit back and allow terrorism on its citizens. In fact I believe that it's the governments role to protect its citizens and vehemently defend their right to a safe existence. If you can have a course of action to ensure your citizens can live safely, I personally support following that route. The unfortunate part in all this is that Hamas and these terrorists cells are well aware that shooting rockets into civilian areas with result in a military response from Israel. They know their actions will result in the deaths of their fellow Palestinians (it's happened frequently) yet they choose to do so anyways. They have a disregard for their own lives, the lives of the Israeli citizens, and the lives of the Palestinian citizens.
Also, Israel dropped leaflets into these Palestinian cities to warn the civilians to avoid Hamas locations and weapons caches due to incoming airstrikes. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in all this, but there's at least some measure of due diligence being taken to protect the sanctity of human life that is completely devoid from the Arab side of the issue.
edit; need to specify
If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets?
This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated.
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On November 17 2012 01:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. So... the proper and justified response to land-buying is violence? Jews commit violence - bad. Period. Arabs / Muslims commit violence - Oh well even if it wasn't in response to violence, it's still justified. Somehow. The double standard applied to Israel and in this case to Jews is ridiculous.
I'm pretty sure everyone, even those siding with Palestine, believes that committing violence with significant civilian casualties is bad. Period. Shooting rockets isn't "justified." Neither side is "justified." There's no double standard when you're saying they're both in the wrong.
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On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it!
You don't know anything actually. I'm not going to talk history with a guy who doesn't even agree that using phosphorus bomb on an hospital is forbidden according to international laws. You know nothing, or in this regard it's even worst, you know a lot of things but somehow selected part of history that goes along with your twisted preferences.
For exemple, the jewish population in old palestine actually killed more people (Deir Yassin massacre and so on) than the arabic population prior to the 14 mai 1948. The arabic population actually riotted against great britain and its representativ before turning their back on the jews at first, and you also have to take into consideration that the arabs represented 2/3 of the global population. Also, the first war between jews and arabs in Mandatory Palestine dates back to 1920 (yes because you know zionism is not a creation of the 2nd ww) and the jewish population started thinking that arming theirselves was the only way to create Israel way before 1948 and the Gaza Riot (creation of the Irgun in 1931).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine
But remember, the arabs started it.
About zalz, you are disgusting. I'm not antisemite, I just don't believe the jews still think theirselves as the victims while they are the complete dominating force in this part of the world. I respect the jewish community for its good things, and I'm actually ashamed to think Israelis consider themselves as the beacon of the jewish "nation" all around the world as they are the most shittiest and war monger country in the world.
On the other side, you are racist clearly, as you defended the idea that all iranians are nuts crazy irrationnals being, that islam is a dangerous religion from its roots, and so on. You just consider all arabs / muslim as dangerous.
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On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:47 Leporello wrote:
But we're supposed to cheer that Israel "defends" itself by invading this small sliver of land with its vastly superior military?
It's so tiresome. I guess I hope Israel gets it over with and just obliterates the populace quickly, because they're giving this cluttered, secluded populace no reason for hope. They're happy to foster more hate, more death. If it weren't for PR, I think Palestine would be done for, obliterated. It's so sad what the WZO has become, and so sad that the Western world is content to see this small, secluded, cluttered settlement of Gaza be slowly squeezed to death. Ironic, because so much can be said similarly for Israel. If you go back over Israel's 70 year history, there are countless wars where they've had to defend themselves from literally every one of their surrounding countries, starting from the first day of their existence. This image of being surrounded and helpless is a reality Israeli's live with, as the rest of the region they live in hates them and wishes nothing short of their death. Show nested quote + If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? Would the conditions of mainland Israel come close to the deplorable conditions of this "strip" known as Gaza? No. It's a fucking joke. It's like our post 9/11 invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan -- it's completely disproportionate. 3,000 American deaths somehow justifies the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians "over there". And the media is largely accomplice to this, happy to repeat the excuses and talking points. This is a ridiculous notion. There is absolutely no reason for Israel (or the US with 9/11) to sit back and allow terrorism on its citizens. In fact I believe that it's the governments role to protect its citizens and vehemently defend their right to a safe existence. If you can have a course of action to ensure your citizens can live safely, I personally support following that route. The unfortunate part in all this is that Hamas and these terrorists cells are well aware that shooting rockets into civilian areas with result in a military response from Israel. They know their actions will result in the deaths of their fellow Palestinians (it's happened frequently) yet they choose to do so anyways. They have a disregard for their own lives, the lives of the Israeli citizens, and the lives of the Palestinian citizens. Also, Israel dropped leaflets into these Palestinian cities to warn the civilians to avoid Hamas locations and weapons caches due to incoming airstrikes. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in all this, but there's at least some measure of due diligence being taken to protect the sanctity of human life that is completely devoid from the Arab side of the issue. edit; need to specify Show nested quote + If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated.
It's about proportionate response. A land invasion, which is what Israel seems to want to do, is not a proportionate response. I'm not saying Israel should let themselves be rocketed.
This is about a land invasion, a land invasion that last time resulted in a dozen Israeli deaths, and over a thousand known Palestinian deaths.
But it's perfectly justified in this black-and-white narrative you have going. After all, they dropped leaflets!
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On November 17 2012 02:33 TheTenthDoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. So... the proper and justified response to land-buying is violence? Jews commit violence - bad. Period. Arabs / Muslims commit violence - Oh well even if it wasn't in response to violence, it's still justified. Somehow. The double standard applied to Israel and in this case to Jews is ridiculous. I'm pretty sure everyone, even those siding with Palestine, believes that committing violence with significant civilian casualties is bad. Period. Shooting rockets isn't "justified." Neither side is "justified." There's no double standard when you're saying they're both in the wrong.
I disagree that neither side is justified, and other than you, I haven't seen a single person who isn't on the Israel side say a single word critical of the poor oppressed genocidal anti-Semites, errr I mean the poor oppressed xenophobic fascists who kill their own all the time as a way to settle factional scores by accusing their enemies of "collaboration" with Israel, errr I mean the Palestinians.
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Here is how a land invasion works from the IDF by the way: It's not all about the death toll. They ravage these people's homes.
It's part of the IDF tactics that they don't use roads. They move through the civilian houses. They wreck these people's homes. http://www.frieze.com/issue/article/the_art_of_war/
I said to my troops, “Friends! […] If until now you were used to move along roads and sidewalks, forget it! From now on we all walk through walls!”
A Palestinian woman identified only as Aisha, interviewed by a journalist for the Palestine Monitor, described the experience: ‘Imagine it – you’re sitting in your living-room, which you know so well; this is the room where the family watches television together after the evening meal, and suddenly that wall disappears with a deafening roar, the room fills with dust and debris, and through the wall pours one soldier after the other, screaming orders. You have no idea if they’re after you, if they’ve come to take over your home, or if your house just lies on their route to somewhere else. The children are screaming, panicking. Is it possible to even begin to imagine the horror experienced by a five-year-old child as four, six, eight, 12 soldiers, their faces painted black, sub-machine-guns pointed everywhere, antennas protruding from their backpacks, making them look like giant alien bugs, blast their way through that wall?
But, yes, all perfectly justifiable to wreck the homes of any civilians establishment that happens to be in your way, amirite? Someone from Hamas fires a rocket and kills some Israelis, so let's rampage their entire infrastructure!!!
At least they'll have their leaflets to look at.
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On November 17 2012 02:22 Sn0_Man wrote:Because every last person who has contributed to wikipedia is utterly unbiased and only recites facts... No, I don't think an unbiased person exists, but since anyone can contribute to Wikipedia and people are biased on both sides, and citations have to be sourced, I actually think Wikipedia is one of the better sources out there for controversial topics like this.
On November 17 2012 01:53 Art.FeeL wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 01:30 qrs wrote:On November 17 2012 01:21 white_horse wrote:On November 17 2012 01:00 Shagg wrote:
The irony in what Israel is doing is astounding I agree. Whether you are pro-israel or not, the fact that there are people today fear israel's military and its ability to kill civilians is really really hilarious considering how jewish people felt the exact same thing when they were being killed by nazi germany 70 years ago. What goes around comes around. Last I remember reading about it, the Jews killed in World War II weren't launching rockets at German civilians with the declared aim to wipe out Germany. On November 17 2012 01:23 sekritzzz wrote:On November 17 2012 00:50 DeepElemBlues wrote:No it all goes back to when you started killing people in palestine to get back your land.
Or are you saying palestinians are not in the defensive stance like before Israel was even created ? You are the agressor, and since the beginning.
So yeah you started all. Stop playing the victim, you are not the 2nd WW jews. WhiteDog has never heard of the Gaza Riots (ethnic cleansing of Jews from Gaza) or the Uprising (attempted takeover of the Mandate and ethnic cleansing of Jews from it) or any of the other incidents of unprovoked anti-Semitic, nationalist Arab violence before 1948. He's also probably never learned that the PLO didn't exist until 1964 and that from 1948 - 1964 the great Arab plan was not self-determination for the artificially created "Palestinians" but rather for Egypt to annex Gaza and the Negev and Jordan the rest. But remember, the Jews started it! And DeepElemBlues has never heard of the balfour declaration of 1918 and the subsequent protests by the Muslim-Christian Association. Zionists, mostly European Jews were actively buying up all the land in Palestine to turn it into a Jewish state from the early 1900's. By 1950's the plan to make Palestine a Jewish state was evident and clear hence why the Christian/Muslim population in Palestine revolted. What's illegitimate about buying land? Before 1948, Palestine was neither a Jewish state nor an Arab state: it was a protectorate of the British government, and before that it belonged to various other Empires. It hadn't been an independent state for thousands of years. Are you trying to say that the Zionists had no right to buy land there? So Israel is only defending itself. Well guess what, Palestinians also say they are only defending themselves, who to believe? Actually, no the Palestinian militant groups firing rockets at Israel say that their goal is to 'raise the banner of jihad against the Jews' (to paraphrase the Hamas charter, for one. Read it for yourself.)
And about the land you are mentioning, if the process of acquiring it was so innocent, then why are there so many Palestinians who were expelled from their land? I was responding to someone talking about the purchase of land by Zionists, which is a different thing entirely.
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On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote:
This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated.
Rockets kills less people in 11 years (51 PEOPLE for god sake) than person dying on the road in one month in the same area (my guess, yeah that comes from my ass, show me wrong) : justify thousands of killings and starving a population to death in the one of the highest density sector in the world, Gaza.
Sure.
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On November 17 2012 02:37 Leporello wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote:On November 17 2012 01:47 Leporello wrote:
But we're supposed to cheer that Israel "defends" itself by invading this small sliver of land with its vastly superior military?
It's so tiresome. I guess I hope Israel gets it over with and just obliterates the populace quickly, because they're giving this cluttered, secluded populace no reason for hope. They're happy to foster more hate, more death. If it weren't for PR, I think Palestine would be done for, obliterated. It's so sad what the WZO has become, and so sad that the Western world is content to see this small, secluded, cluttered settlement of Gaza be slowly squeezed to death. Ironic, because so much can be said similarly for Israel. If you go back over Israel's 70 year history, there are countless wars where they've had to defend themselves from literally every one of their surrounding countries, starting from the first day of their existence. This image of being surrounded and helpless is a reality Israeli's live with, as the rest of the region they live in hates them and wishes nothing short of their death. If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? Would the conditions of mainland Israel come close to the deplorable conditions of this "strip" known as Gaza? No. It's a fucking joke. It's like our post 9/11 invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan -- it's completely disproportionate. 3,000 American deaths somehow justifies the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians "over there". And the media is largely accomplice to this, happy to repeat the excuses and talking points. This is a ridiculous notion. There is absolutely no reason for Israel (or the US with 9/11) to sit back and allow terrorism on its citizens. In fact I believe that it's the governments role to protect its citizens and vehemently defend their right to a safe existence. If you can have a course of action to ensure your citizens can live safely, I personally support following that route. The unfortunate part in all this is that Hamas and these terrorists cells are well aware that shooting rockets into civilian areas with result in a military response from Israel. They know their actions will result in the deaths of their fellow Palestinians (it's happened frequently) yet they choose to do so anyways. They have a disregard for their own lives, the lives of the Israeli citizens, and the lives of the Palestinian citizens. Also, Israel dropped leaflets into these Palestinian cities to warn the civilians to avoid Hamas locations and weapons caches due to incoming airstrikes. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in all this, but there's at least some measure of due diligence being taken to protect the sanctity of human life that is completely devoid from the Arab side of the issue. edit; need to specify If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated. It's about proportionate response. A land invasion, which is what Israel seems to want to do, is not a proportionate response. I'm not saying Israel should let themselves be rocketed. This is about a land invasion, a land invasion that last time resulted in a dozen Israeli deaths, and over a thousand known Palestinian deaths. But it's perfectly justified in this black-and-white narrative you have going. After all, they dropped leaflets!
Why is a ground invasion a disproportionate response? An act of war is an act of war. No other country in the world is held to the ludicrous "proportionality" standard that Israel is. Not a single one. Assad can kill in 12 months more Muslims than Israel has killed in 30 years, but condemnations of Israel stand a hundred to one of condemnations of the Syrian government. No other country is ever hit with "proportionality of response" criticism. Only Israel. It's just another example of the double standard applied to the Jewish State.
Why are total casualty numbers relevant when discussing proportionality? Palestinian terrorists suck at not getting killed, that's the IDF's fault? Palestinian terrorists operate deliberately from urban areas and deliberately site military positions near mosques and schools and large apartment buildings, that's the IDF's fault too? Not under the laws of war, which do not apply to Israel (the special laws of war for Israel are that Israel is wrong, period). International law plainly states that civilian sites used as military positions become fair game, and responsibility for civilian casualties lies on the side who decided to use a civilian site for a military purpose. Except when it comes to Israel, then the other side (Israel) is responsible.
Rockets kills less people in 11 years (51 PEOPLE for god sake) than person dying on the road in one month in the same area (my guess, yeah that comes from my ass, show me wrong) : justify thousands of killings and starving a population to death in the one of the highest density sector in the world, Gaza.
Sure.
How many people have died from starvation in Gaza? Zero? I see.
You're still all hung up on how little Jewish lives are worth as well. Not a surprise.
And yes, killing over a thousand terrorists last time was justified, and hopefully they'll do it again.
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On November 17 2012 02:47 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:37 Leporello wrote:On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote:On November 17 2012 01:47 Leporello wrote:
But we're supposed to cheer that Israel "defends" itself by invading this small sliver of land with its vastly superior military?
It's so tiresome. I guess I hope Israel gets it over with and just obliterates the populace quickly, because they're giving this cluttered, secluded populace no reason for hope. They're happy to foster more hate, more death. If it weren't for PR, I think Palestine would be done for, obliterated. It's so sad what the WZO has become, and so sad that the Western world is content to see this small, secluded, cluttered settlement of Gaza be slowly squeezed to death. Ironic, because so much can be said similarly for Israel. If you go back over Israel's 70 year history, there are countless wars where they've had to defend themselves from literally every one of their surrounding countries, starting from the first day of their existence. This image of being surrounded and helpless is a reality Israeli's live with, as the rest of the region they live in hates them and wishes nothing short of their death. If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? Would the conditions of mainland Israel come close to the deplorable conditions of this "strip" known as Gaza? No. It's a fucking joke. It's like our post 9/11 invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan -- it's completely disproportionate. 3,000 American deaths somehow justifies the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians "over there". And the media is largely accomplice to this, happy to repeat the excuses and talking points. This is a ridiculous notion. There is absolutely no reason for Israel (or the US with 9/11) to sit back and allow terrorism on its citizens. In fact I believe that it's the governments role to protect its citizens and vehemently defend their right to a safe existence. If you can have a course of action to ensure your citizens can live safely, I personally support following that route. The unfortunate part in all this is that Hamas and these terrorists cells are well aware that shooting rockets into civilian areas with result in a military response from Israel. They know their actions will result in the deaths of their fellow Palestinians (it's happened frequently) yet they choose to do so anyways. They have a disregard for their own lives, the lives of the Israeli citizens, and the lives of the Palestinian citizens. Also, Israel dropped leaflets into these Palestinian cities to warn the civilians to avoid Hamas locations and weapons caches due to incoming airstrikes. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in all this, but there's at least some measure of due diligence being taken to protect the sanctity of human life that is completely devoid from the Arab side of the issue. edit; need to specify If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated. It's about proportionate response. A land invasion, which is what Israel seems to want to do, is not a proportionate response. I'm not saying Israel should let themselves be rocketed. This is about a land invasion, a land invasion that last time resulted in a dozen Israeli deaths, and over a thousand known Palestinian deaths. But it's perfectly justified in this black-and-white narrative you have going. After all, they dropped leaflets! Why is a ground invasion a disproportionate response? An act of war is an act of war. No other country in the world is held to the ludicrous "proportionality" standard that Israel is. Not a single one. Assad can kill in 12 months more Muslims than Israel has killed in 30 years, but condemnations of Israel stand a hundred to one of condemnations of the Syrian government. No other country is ever hit with "proportionality of response" criticism. Only Israel. It's just another example of the double standard applied to the Jewish State. Why are total casualty numbers relevant when discussing proportionality? Palestinian terrorists suck at not getting killed, that's the IDF's fault? Palestinian terrorists operate deliberately from urban areas and deliberately site military positions near mosques and schools and large apartment buildings, that's the IDF's fault too? Not under the laws of war, which do not apply to Israel (the special laws of war for Israel are that Israel is wrong, period). International law plainly states that civilian sites used as military positions become fair game, and responsibility for civilian casualties lies on the side who decided to use a civilian site for a military purpose. Except when it comes to Israel, then the other side (Israel) is responsible.
I'm sorry, but I think you know Butkis about Gaza if you think you can invade in the style IDF invades, and not get a ridiculous amount of unneeded collateral damage.
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Stop discussion with DeepElemBlues, the guy doesn't even agree that using phosphorus bomb on an hospital is forbidden according to international laws. How can you even take him seriously ?
On November 17 2012 02:41 Leporello wrote:Here is how a land invasion works from the IDF by the way: It's not all about the death toll. They ravage these people's homes. It's part of the IDF tactics that they don't use roads. They move through the civilian houses. They wreck these people's homes. http://www.frieze.com/issue/article/the_art_of_war/Show nested quote + I said to my troops, “Friends! […] If until now you were used to move along roads and sidewalks, forget it! From now on we all walk through walls!” Show nested quote +A Palestinian woman identified only as Aisha, interviewed by a journalist for the Palestine Monitor, described the experience: ‘Imagine it – you’re sitting in your living-room, which you know so well; this is the room where the family watches television together after the evening meal, and suddenly that wall disappears with a deafening roar, the room fills with dust and debris, and through the wall pours one soldier after the other, screaming orders. You have no idea if they’re after you, if they’ve come to take over your home, or if your house just lies on their route to somewhere else. The children are screaming, panicking. Is it possible to even begin to imagine the horror experienced by a five-year-old child as four, six, eight, 12 soldiers, their faces painted black, sub-machine-guns pointed everywhere, antennas protruding from their backpacks, making them look like giant alien bugs, blast their way through that wall? But, yes, all perfectly justifiable to wreck the homes of any civilians establishment that happens to be in your way, amirite? Someone from Hamas fires a rocket and kills some Israelis, so let's rampage their entire infrastructure!!! At least they'll have their leaflets to look at.
Wow this is incredibly wrong ? The jewish army saying they used Deleuze & Guattari's work, this is fucked up. Deleuze, a known anti statist, pro revolution thinker, being read and used by killers.
I asked Naveh why Deleuze and Guattari were so popular with the Israeli military. He replied that ‘several of the concepts in A Thousand Plateaux became instrumental for us […] allowing us to explain contemporary situations in a way that we could not have otherwise. It problematized our own paradigms. Most important was the distinction they have pointed out between the concepts of “smooth” and “striated” space [which accordingly reflect] the organizational concepts of the “war machine” and the “state apparatus”. In the IDF we now often use the term “to smooth out space” when we want to refer to operation in a space as if it had no borders.
I'm sure Foucault didn't meant that when he said that the next century will be deleuzian.
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I'm sorry, but I think you know Butkis about Gaza if you think you can invade in the style IDF invades, and not get a ridiculous amount of unneeded collateral damage.
Do you know how many buildings and roads were booby-trapped during Operation Cast Lead? Probably not, so please don't talk about knowing Bupkis.
Stop discussion with DeepElemBlues, the guy doesn't even agree that using phosphorus bomb on an hospital is forbidden according to international laws. How can you even take him seriously ?
Deliberately using it on a protected target, sure. I already said that, but you don't care because that doesn't fit in with your narrative.
You can't prove that it was deliberate for absolutely no reason but you just know it was!
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On November 17 2012 02:47 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:37 Leporello wrote:On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote:On November 17 2012 01:47 Leporello wrote:
But we're supposed to cheer that Israel "defends" itself by invading this small sliver of land with its vastly superior military?
It's so tiresome. I guess I hope Israel gets it over with and just obliterates the populace quickly, because they're giving this cluttered, secluded populace no reason for hope. They're happy to foster more hate, more death. If it weren't for PR, I think Palestine would be done for, obliterated. It's so sad what the WZO has become, and so sad that the Western world is content to see this small, secluded, cluttered settlement of Gaza be slowly squeezed to death. Ironic, because so much can be said similarly for Israel. If you go back over Israel's 70 year history, there are countless wars where they've had to defend themselves from literally every one of their surrounding countries, starting from the first day of their existence. This image of being surrounded and helpless is a reality Israeli's live with, as the rest of the region they live in hates them and wishes nothing short of their death. If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? Would the conditions of mainland Israel come close to the deplorable conditions of this "strip" known as Gaza? No. It's a fucking joke. It's like our post 9/11 invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan -- it's completely disproportionate. 3,000 American deaths somehow justifies the deaths of hundreds of thousands of civilians "over there". And the media is largely accomplice to this, happy to repeat the excuses and talking points. This is a ridiculous notion. There is absolutely no reason for Israel (or the US with 9/11) to sit back and allow terrorism on its citizens. In fact I believe that it's the governments role to protect its citizens and vehemently defend their right to a safe existence. If you can have a course of action to ensure your citizens can live safely, I personally support following that route. The unfortunate part in all this is that Hamas and these terrorists cells are well aware that shooting rockets into civilian areas with result in a military response from Israel. They know their actions will result in the deaths of their fellow Palestinians (it's happened frequently) yet they choose to do so anyways. They have a disregard for their own lives, the lives of the Israeli citizens, and the lives of the Palestinian citizens. Also, Israel dropped leaflets into these Palestinian cities to warn the civilians to avoid Hamas locations and weapons caches due to incoming airstrikes. I'm not saying Israel is without blame in all this, but there's at least some measure of due diligence being taken to protect the sanctity of human life that is completely devoid from the Arab side of the issue. edit; need to specify If Israel would've just shown more restrain over the years, what would've happened? Would Hamas defeat Israel with its rockets? This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated. It's about proportionate response. A land invasion, which is what Israel seems to want to do, is not a proportionate response. I'm not saying Israel should let themselves be rocketed. This is about a land invasion, a land invasion that last time resulted in a dozen Israeli deaths, and over a thousand known Palestinian deaths. But it's perfectly justified in this black-and-white narrative you have going. After all, they dropped leaflets! Why is a ground invasion a disproportionate response? An act of war is an act of war. No other country in the world is held to the ludicrous "proportionality" standard that Israel is. Not a single one. Assad can kill in 12 months more Muslims than Israel has killed in 30 years, but condemnations of Israel stand a hundred to one of condemnations of the Syrian government. No other country is ever hit with "proportionality of response" criticism. Only Israel. It's just another example of the double standard applied to the Jewish State. Why are total casualty numbers relevant when discussing proportionality? Palestinian terrorists suck at not getting killed, that's the IDF's fault? Palestinian terrorists operate deliberately from urban areas and deliberately site military positions near mosques and schools and large apartment buildings, that's the IDF's fault too? Not under the laws of war, which do not apply to Israel (the special laws of war for Israel are that Israel is wrong, period). International law plainly states that civilian sites used as military positions become fair game, and responsibility for civilian casualties lies on the side who decided to use a civilian site for a military purpose. Except when it comes to Israel, then the other side (Israel) is responsible.
On November 17 2012 02:50 WhiteDog wrote:
Stop discussion with DeepElemBlues, the guy doesn't even agree that using phosphorus bomb on an hospital is forbidden according to international laws. How can you even take him seriously ?
Phosphorus bomb comments aside, I don't see how what I quoted above isn't a fair statement.
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Israel2209 Posts
On November 17 2012 02:47 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2012 02:32 Durp wrote:
This is fucking retarded. Israel should just allow rocket attacks because these won't defeat them? That's absurd. Violence against your citizens from an outside source should never be tolerated. (51 PEOPLE for god sake)
Thank you for your continued support in Israel and helping us show the world what we are going through.
FIFTY ONE KILLED!!!
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On November 17 2012 02:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sorry, but I think you know Butkis about Gaza if you think you can invade in the style IDF invades, and not get a ridiculous amount of unneeded collateral damage. Do you know how many buildings and roads were booby-trapped during Operation Cast Lead? Probably not, so please don't talk about knowing Bupkis. Show nested quote +Stop discussion with DeepElemBlues, the guy doesn't even agree that using phosphorus bomb on an hospital is forbidden according to international laws. How can you even take him seriously ? Deliberately using it on a protected target, sure. I already said that, but you don't care because that doesn't fit in with your narrative. You can't prove that it was deliberate for absolutely no reason but you just know it was!
I've already linked what is known about Operation Cast Lead, 14 Isreali deaths, immeasurable (at least a thousand) Palestinian deaths. Countless homes destroyed, guaranteeing more hatred, more deaths to come.
But you obviously don't care about that, I have to assume at this point, from the position you argue. The only deaths that matter are the non-Muslims. What does it matter if the roads are booby-trapped, if you don't invade? Why invade?
This thread started with Israel sending air-strikes against military targets. But, yeah, let's start a land invasion and complain about Hamas using booby-traps on its roads as reason to destroy civilian homes.
Wow. Some perspective you got there.
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I've already linked what is known about Operation Cast Lead, 14 Isreali deaths, immeasurable (at least a thousand) Palestinian deaths. Countless homes destroyed, guaranteeing more hatred, more deaths to come.
According to the IDF about 1/3 of the homes Israeli soldiers went past or entered during Cast Lead were booby-trapped. Guess what is a war crime...? Precisely that. Booby-trapping civilian homes is a no-no. It's regular Hamas strategy.
But you obviously don't care about that, I have to assume at this point, from the position you argue. The only deaths that matter are the non-Muslims. What does it matter if the roads are booby-trapped, if you don't invade?
No, I don't have a problem with war crimes being punished.
If the terrorist:civilian death ratio was 1:1 or even close to it, I would have a problem with it. But it isn't. In some of the most densely populated urban territory in the world, the IDF gets a 3:1, 4:1 terrorist:civilian death ratio, and this is apparently barbaric and disproportionate and bad.
This thread started with Israel sending air-strikes against military targets. But, yeah, let's start a land invasion and complain about Hamas using booby-traps on its roads.
Wow. Some perspective you got there.
Your perspective is apparently that terrorists can commit war crimes all they want because Israel is so much stronger than they are. Some perspective indeed.
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On November 17 2012 02:53 DeepElemBlues wrote:Show nested quote +I'm sorry, but I think you know Butkis about Gaza if you think you can invade in the style IDF invades, and not get a ridiculous amount of unneeded collateral damage. Do you know how many buildings and roads were booby-trapped during Operation Cast Lead? Probably not, so please don't talk about knowing Bupkis. Show nested quote +Stop discussion with DeepElemBlues, the guy doesn't even agree that using phosphorus bomb on an hospital is forbidden according to international laws. How can you even take him seriously ? Deliberately using it on a protected target, sure. I already said that, but you don't care because that doesn't fit in with your narrative. You can't prove that it was deliberate for absolutely no reason but you just know it was!
You're still at it, god... It's not a question of the use being deliberate or not, it's forbidden in civilians areas, that's it, so you can't use it in Gaza, a civilian a-r-e-a.
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EPT
