|
Problem
Before presenting my argument I want to make sure everyone understands the problems i'm trying to address. Below are what I believe to be the key concerns related to the Terran race in the HOTS beta:
-Inability of Terran to "mech" against Protoss, primarily due to the immortal (zealot problem seems to have been solved by battle hellions)
-Inability to break siege tank lines in TvT (This is more a Browder concern but i've seen people suggesting adding haywire missles to thors etc.)
-No significant or interesting change in the meta game (Widow Mine and Battle Hellions do not feel as impactful as other races units) - note: I do find the Widow Mine to be very promising
-Getting rid of deathball play in TvP
Proposal
Let's bring back lockdown on the ghost. The unit has felt a little stale after the snipe nerf anyways. In BW this ability locked down a mechanical unit for 60 seconds, leaving it exposed and unable to move or attack (though it could be recalled!). I'm not going to get into a balance discussion on how many seconds or how much energy it should cost. I just want to review what it would bring to the table in terms of strategies and how it addresses the above problems. The only specific stat I will mention is that this ability should have a range of about 8-9 to allow it to be used on colossus but not the siege tank (if it has sight)
-Inability of Terran to "mech" against Protoss, primarily due to the immortal (zealot problem seems to have been solved by battle hellions)
***Lockdown would allow the terran to disable the key units that deter Terran mech play (immortal, colossus). Players already argue that ghost is a must in a tvp mech composition due to the necessity of EMPs to combat immortals. This adds another incentive to include the ghost in this composition. Also, with the addition of the Phase Shields and Recall, Protoss would have 2 reasonable ways to prevent/cure this ability
-Inability to break siege tank lines in TvT (This is more a Browder concern but i've seen people suggesting adding haywire missles to thors etc.)
***Lockdown would allow you to shut down a chunk of a siege contain allowing the player to break or push forward their own siege line or stage a heavy bio attack. However, this doesn't kill tank play in TvT as this could be prevented through good missile turret placement and good use of ravens/scans.
-No significant or interesting change in the meta game (Widow Mine and Battle Hellions do not feel as impactful as other races units)
***Lockdown would add a very interesting (from an esports and player view) component to the game and allows the Oracle to gain a significant amount of utility versus T beyond preventing concussive shells. This would be a great way to pick off Tempests, oracles and warp prisms and encourages positional play. Also it gives the Ghost a whole new feel which could help alleviate the general feeling that Terran is getting nothing new in the expansion
-Getting rid of deathball play in TvP
***What better way to get rid of the deathball then being able to lock down colossus, the unit that encourages it? Zerg is already gaining this ability with abduct. Let's give Terran a comparable ability and make it just as preventable with the oracle.
Thoughts? Thanks for reading!
P.S - If needed snipe could be removed and replaced with lockdown if there is a concern over the ghost having too many abilities.
P.P.S - As some are suggesting, I think this ability would work very well on the Raven too
|
Lockdown would be really interesting to have back!
Locking down colossi might sound messed up to some people, but it's not too bad. Although the TvP match up is supposed to be
Viking > Colossus
Colossus > Ghost
Ghost > HT
HT > Viking
we all know that in deathballs, the protoss army is pretty damn strong (until maybe terran is able to free up more supply via MULEs) unless terran gets a really good engagement
Ghosts are supposed to counter HT, which they do well, but in big engagements, HT storms still do well and can kill ghosts anyways. Ghosts can't do much against colossi, so maybe this lockdown could improve bio as well.
Though I guess some may argue that sniping the observers then forcing the colossi back with Cloak is good enough, but meh.
Edit: Idk if the ghost should have it though. Maybe remove snipe and allow lockdown to work on any unit? X)
Or perhaps ravens could have it. I don't know where lockdown could fit.
|
Thanks Yoshi! I think T3 should be very powerful, but not an end-state (ex: broodlord infestor army versus Protoss where I think the tempest does a good job adjusting). There should never be an "ideal composition". I think being able to shut down a powerful unit like the colossus forces a dynamic shift in the game to different compositions. This is something I want to encourage.
|
the only problem i see with this is that if your going for a 'pure' mech play why bother giving the ghost the lockdown ability? why not give it to a unit like the raven or make a caster mech unit with that ability? some people say that it's hard to get ghost with a mech army since that it costs a lot to have. I mean the yamato cannon just about solves the problem with immortals as they one shot them all the time.
|
On September 27 2012 03:31 Blackknight232 wrote:
the only problem i see with this is that if your going for a 'pure' mech play why bother giving the ghost the lockdown ability? why not give it to a unit like the raven or make a caster mech unit with that ability? some people say that it's hard to get ghost with a mech army since that it costs a lot to have. I mean the yamato cannon just about solves the problem with immortals as they one shot them all the time.
I considered whether the Raven should have it but I decided that the synergies in the TvT and TvP matchups were too great to not have it on the ghost. I like the idea of introducing a decision of whether to EMP or lockdown in TvP and for both TvT and TvP encouraging nuke play again.
|
i can understand that but my ghost micro is not worth a flip so that's why i suggested that because the raven has pdd which is useful in tvt and tvp and if the seeker missile gets a nice buff in terms of range and damage then the lockdown would be nice addition to it's spells instead of the auto turrets and also my bio control in tvp sucks so i've been working on my skyterran play and which is the main reason why i wanted ravens to have it
|
On September 27 2012 03:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Locking down colossi might sound messed up to some people, but it's not too bad.
I hope people dont think this. It's no different that a phoenix lifting a unit or mind control from the infestor. Ghosts do def need something else, they get no merit anymore because they aren't worth a shit for anything but EMP. Lockdown may just be that answer...
|
On September 27 2012 03:41 Blackknight232 wrote:
i can understand that but my ghost micro is not worth a flip so that's why i suggested that because the raven has pdd which is useful in tvt and tvp and if the seeker missile gets a nice buff in terms of range and damage then the lockdown would be nice addition to it's spells instead of the auto turrets and also my bio control in tvp sucks so i've been working on my skyterran play and which is the main reason why i wanted ravens to have it
Good points! I could see it working on the raven as well. Love the idea of it replacing turrets.
|
I'm sorry, I really dislike the idea of going back to SC:BW "stuff".
As Da[9] once put it, he is before anything a nerd that gets excited by the sheer idea of toying with new units.
That is very simple, and I fully agree with that. Move on, I'd say.
|
I'd rather go back to old toys that were fun instead of new toys that are all flash no bang.
|
614 Posts
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless.
|
On September 27 2012 03:48 Murlox wrote:
I'm sorry, I really dislike the idea of going back to SC:BW "stuff".
As Da[9] once put it, he is before anything a nerd that gets excited by the sheer idea of toying with new units.
That is very simple, and I fully agree with that. Move on, I'd say.
I disagree with this. Lockdown in brood war was hardly used at all as deathball play was not that common. I think lockdown in sc2 would be a different sort of animal and feel completely original, even if it isn't lol. Right now too much of the tvp matchup revolves around protecting colossus and immortals. Lets change that.
|
On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless.
First you're crazy
Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe.
I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
|
Mmm not sure how feasible this is. No toss is going to go robo if ghosts can come and neutralize most of your damage potential with these spells.
First, remember that ghosts have emp as well, this leaves you with only a single ability (recall) to get you out of a bad situation.
Second, if people go army heavy with gateway with sprinkled colossus and immortal. This means you usually will not need a huge amount of apm to significantly remove protoss dps.
Add this with battle hellions, you have a terran army that no longer requires stutter step against gateway component of the army, so all apm can be spent on lock down. This makes ghosts the only thing in the army that still requires control.
Further, templar is a viable replacement for robo play. If terran has lockdown, we will see only templar play and robo should go extinct and be as useless as factory is currently against protoss.
With lockdown, ghost remove the protoss's only reliable source of detection, the observer. Just scan, lockdown, and kill. You have to have the observer close to see ghosts but too close and it's dead.
Put these together and ghost just becomes the best caster in the game vs protoss, taking out shields, locking down units, and removing caster support. PVT is going to be a caster game similar to zerg's infester heavy play.
|
On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless. First you're crazy Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe. I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
Wouldn't be against having it be a researched ability at the academy to prevent this.
|
On September 27 2012 04:09 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Mmm not sure how feasible this is. No toss is going to go robo if ghosts can come and neutralize most of your damage potential with these spells.
First, remember that ghosts have emp as well, this leaves you with only a single ability (recall) to get you out of a bad situation.
Second, if people go army heavy with gateway with sprinkled colossus and immortal. This means you usually will not need a huge amount of apm to significantly remove protoss dps.
Add this with battle hellions, you have a terran army that no longer requires stutter step against gateway component of the army, so all apm can be spent on lock down. This makes ghosts the only thing in the army that still requires control.
Further, templar is a viable replacement for robo play. If terran has lockdown, we will see only templar play and robo should go extinct and be as useless as factory is currently against protoss.
With lockdown, ghost remove the protoss's only reliable source of detection, the observer. Just scan, lockdown, and kill. You have to have the observer close to see ghosts but too close and it's dead.
Put these together and ghost just becomes the best caster in the game vs protoss, taking out shields, locking down units, and removing caster support. PVT is going to be a caster game similar to zerg's infester heavy play.
First, I would argue that the oracle's phase shields also prevent this (not just recall), concussive shells, strike cannons, and emp revealing cloak so this is still very preventable. Not to mention revelation lets you spot the ghosts without an oracle. Also, the templar already has a similar added utility against T right now with feedback that snipe is definitely not comparable to. The more I think about it the more I do think it needs to be a researched skill however.
|
614 Posts
On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
First you're crazy
Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe.
I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
This is just another reason why it's a bad idea to give it to the Ghost, but what I meant is that it would be useless against Immortals. Ghosts would always use EMP in that scenario, and really, Ghosts are way more difficult to incorporate into mech than bio. MECH is what needs to have an Immortal solution, not bio. Lockdown should go to the Raven, not the Ghost.
|
On September 27 2012 04:17 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
First you're crazy
Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe.
I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us. This is just another reason why it's a bad idea to give it to the Ghost, but what I meant is that it would be useless against Immortals. Ghosts would always use EMP in that scenario, and really, Ghosts are way more difficult to incorporate into mech than bio. MECH is what needs to have an Immortal solution, not bio. Lockdown should go to the Raven, not the Ghost.
Thanks Crawdad, I agree it would work very well on the Raven too and added it to the OP.
|
So give lockdown to thors instead of strike cannons.
|
On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless. First you're crazy Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe. I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
Didnt protoss just get an ability to counter single target abilities?? i think that should fix that problem or like another poster suggested just add research at an academy
|
No more anti-micro abilities please. I vote nay.
|
Lockdown is lame, and if it had to go on any unit, the ghost might be my last choice. Putting units in time out is a lame effect. Moreover, a spell that the opponent can't prevent or respond to is lame. And lastly, the ghost just makes no sense as the target for the spell. Who would use it over EMP vs P? And in TvT, you'll be better off using the resources to make more of your own tanks than you would be making ghosts to put your opponents tanks in time out. And in late game, ghosts already have nukes to break enemy siege lines.
|
On September 27 2012 04:47 kcdc wrote:
Lockdown is lame, and if it had to go on any unit, the ghost might be my last choice. Putting units in time out is a lame effect. Moreover, a spell that the opponent can't prevent or respond to is lame. And lastly, the ghost just makes no sense as the target for the spell. Who would use it over EMP vs P? And in TvT, you'll be better off using the resources to make more of your own tanks than you would be making ghosts to put your opponents tanks in time out. And in late game, ghosts already have nukes to break enemy siege lines.
It's no lamer than mind control, vortex, graviton and fungal. Also it's entirely preventable through phase shields, feedbacking / killing the ghosts, or recalling the units. Also, EMP and lockdown would work together (who wouldn't want to EMP and lock down a clumped up Protoss army)
|
in all honesty it would just behoove all terrans if the science vessel just made a appearance in the game again i mean it can heal mech units, use irridate, and can be upgraded to use lockdown and defensive matrix(again)
|
On September 27 2012 04:53 Prime Directive wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 04:47 kcdc wrote:
Lockdown is lame, and if it had to go on any unit, the ghost might be my last choice. Putting units in time out is a lame effect. Moreover, a spell that the opponent can't prevent or respond to is lame. And lastly, the ghost just makes no sense as the target for the spell. Who would use it over EMP vs P? And in TvT, you'll be better off using the resources to make more of your own tanks than you would be making ghosts to put your opponents tanks in time out. And in late game, ghosts already have nukes to break enemy siege lines. It's no lamer than the lamest spells in the game. Also it's entirely preventable through phase shields, feedbacking / killing the ghosts, or recalling the units. Also, EMP and lockdown would work together (who wouldn't want to EMP and lock down a clumped up Protoss army)
That's not really a selling point. It emphasizes the bad in the game.
|
Fungal is awful. Everyone hates how you can't respond to it. Vortex is bad, but it's not quite as bad as fungal because there's only ever 2 of them which means you can spread effectively against it. Also, a moving mothership has a long delay before vortex casts. This is why motherships get neuraled all the time--the Protoss player tells the mothership to vortex, but the damn thing waits 5 seconds before casting giving time for an infestor to interrupt the cast. Neural is fine--you can block it by preventing the infestor from getting within 6 range. Graviton is cool--you shoot the lifting phoenix and get your unit back.
If something is about as lame as fungal and vortex are, it needs to stay the heck out of this game.
|
On September 27 2012 03:53 Prime Directive wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:48 Murlox wrote:
I'm sorry, I really dislike the idea of going back to SC:BW "stuff".
As Da[9] once put it, he is before anything a nerd that gets excited by the sheer idea of toying with new units.
That is very simple, and I fully agree with that. Move on, I'd say. I disagree with this. Lockdown in brood war was hardly used at all as deathball play was not that common. I think lockdown in sc2 would be a different sort of animal and feel completely original, even if it isn't lol. Right now too much of the tvp matchup revolves around protecting colossus and immortals. Lets change that.
? Are you a young person that didn't play a lot of BW games ? In which case, I can understand your view, and yes lockdown was an awesome ability and very handy to use versus carriers or battlecruisers mainly. Maybe not something you would see on your every day competitive matches, but a very nice and fun tool to play with as a mediocre terran (thinking BGH with friends, or friendly 3v3, 4v4 for instance).
I just feel that SC2 should have "stuff" of his own, and not recycle old units / concepts... (hello, spider mines).
|
On September 27 2012 04:35 zeratul_jf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless. First you're crazy Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe. I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us. Didnt protoss just get an ability to counter single target abilities?? i think that should fix that problem or like another poster suggested just add research at an academy
Yeah through the Oracle which comes out of the Stargate, If you open Stargate in PvT you are pretty much dead to any 2 base stim timings. Also you won't have colossus or High templar. Since Oracles mean you can't tech because they cost 200 gas.
|
Lockdown being a single-target ability differentiates it from the current "macro-disabling" abilities that are aoe (vortex, fungal, etc). This is why I don't mind abduct either. It makes it so you can't rely on big, protected units to be the core of your army.
|
Lockdown against Protoss would really overlap with Emp. If you add ghosts to mech, it does exceptionally well against immortals. Emp would always be used over Lockdown if Lockdown wouldn't be overpowered. Also Lockdown would force Deathball play, since units couldn't be out there without ghost defense. Fungal is a good example for this ... or well Lockdown from BW.
And Lockdown doesn't work on Siege tank lines in a cost effective way, even in SC2. Range 13 makes these Ghosts never return and Snipe is really strong against Ghosts. A nuke would be a more efficient way. That being said, a banshee is perfect at picking at siege lines.
The ability to break siege lines in TvT are enough already. Especially since you don't even need vision if you invest into a Sensor turret.
Imo Lockdown would add nothing to the game except making it a high risk for a Protoss to send out a warp prism for harass for example. Sure key units can be stunned, but what forces the Protoss to not go into a Deathball, so they can prevent you from killing the stunned units. I surely wouldn't even think of using a warp prism, because there could be a 2 supply unit out that that instant kills my unit on range 9 basically. Even Fungal and cannonHT isn't such a powerful drop defense.
|
United Kingdom12024 Posts
I'd love to have lockdown back, but I feel they'd have to give EMP to the raven and ghost lockdown as one caster having both would be pretty crazy.
|
On September 27 2012 04:59 Blackknight232 wrote:
in all honesty it would just behoove all terrans if the science vessel just made a appearance in the game again i mean it can heal mech units, use irridate, and can be upgraded to use lockdown and defensive matrix(again)
I would be glad to see this back. I always hated the Science vessel, but at the same time it was because how effective it could be. Terrans do have the Raven though, but I see that simply opening more techpaths for Terran and giving them more capabilities. It would also oblige Blizzard to make the Battle Hellion as a Mechanical unit again.
However, I could definitely see Lockdown being imbalanced and too good for Terran in SC2.
|
On September 27 2012 03:31 Blackknight232 wrote:
the only problem i see with this is that if your going for a 'pure' mech play why bother giving the ghost the lockdown ability? why not give it to a unit like the raven or make a caster mech unit with that ability? some people say that it's hard to get ghost with a mech army since that it costs a lot to have. I mean the yamato cannon just about solves the problem with immortals as they one shot them all the time.
A pure composition working past midgame would be pretty broken and go against the design that's really key to SC2.
Why the Raven? Neither the ghost nor raven are mech units, and are already gotten as support units.
Also the OP didn't mention anything about pure mech, just mech.
Also someone raised a good point that lockdown wasn't used much in BW, and hence it wouldn't "just" be bringing back a BW ability.
|
it's becuase i said in op i play skyterran so why not give the raven that ability?
as for your second point i have no clue what the hell you're talking about mind explaining that more
|
On September 27 2012 04:16 Prime Directive wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 04:09 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Mmm not sure how feasible this is. No toss is going to go robo if ghosts can come and neutralize most of your damage potential with these spells.
First, remember that ghosts have emp as well, this leaves you with only a single ability (recall) to get you out of a bad situation.
Second, if people go army heavy with gateway with sprinkled colossus and immortal. This means you usually will not need a huge amount of apm to significantly remove protoss dps.
Add this with battle hellions, you have a terran army that no longer requires stutter step against gateway component of the army, so all apm can be spent on lock down. This makes ghosts the only thing in the army that still requires control.
Further, templar is a viable replacement for robo play. If terran has lockdown, we will see only templar play and robo should go extinct and be as useless as factory is currently against protoss.
With lockdown, ghost remove the protoss's only reliable source of detection, the observer. Just scan, lockdown, and kill. You have to have the observer close to see ghosts but too close and it's dead.
Put these together and ghost just becomes the best caster in the game vs protoss, taking out shields, locking down units, and removing caster support. PVT is going to be a caster game similar to zerg's infester heavy play. First, I would argue that the oracle's phase shields also prevent this (not just recall), concussive shells, strike cannons, and emp revealing cloak so this is still very preventable. Not to mention revelation lets you spot the ghosts without an oracle. Also, the templar already has a similar added utility against T right now with feedback that snipe is definitely not comparable to. The more I think about it the more I do think it needs to be a researched skill however.
I already alluded to this. EMP removes one of the protoss defenses by sapping energy and shield. You can keep them in the back, but then they can't protect anything. Put them in the front and it's a matter of timing to send in a decent emp. I believe revelation's taken out, might be wrong.
|
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=369087
I had a very similar thought (thread above). I think lockdown addresses all sorts of concerns while at the same time making the game very exciting to watch.
This is another interesting suggestion: EMP shockwave, temporarily disrupts electric signals found in biological and mechanical units, causing units in the radius to become stunned and slowed.
|
Lockdown might be interesting, but I don't think it would be a good fit for the Ghost. Because then the Ghost would counter pretty much every Protoss unit in the game except Zealots. I think this would encourage Terrans to go bio even harder than WOL because we will be forced to make Raxes for Ghosts just like we are forced to make Raxes for Marine/Marauder in WOL.
The Ghost is fine in TvP, it only needs work in TvT and TvZ. I'd much rather see a buff to Nukes (from range 12 to range 14 would give Browder his anti-siege line tool), which would improve the Ghost in TvT and TvZ without making it overblown in TvP. Timing Nukes in-between Swarm Hosts spawns could add some really cool tension to the matchup. Do I spawn all my locust together, which will do the most damage but risk letting a Ghost sneak in? Or do I stagger my locust spawns, which would keep me protected against Ghosts but at the cost of doing less damage to the enemy front? Or do I use Viper energy to tug Ghosts instead of tugging Tanks/Thors?
I think Lockdown would be a better fit for the Raven. It would give Ravens a fighting chance vs Robo/Stargate while keeping them weak to Templar tech. Trading Seeker Missile or PDD for Lockdown might work.
The thing is...I think we have too many anti-micro spells in the game already. The Oracle shouldn't need a spell to counter bad gameplay design...and the fact it does have one is very telling. I guess I'd rather not have lockdown at all, and get a brand new ability instead.
|
Just a random idea I had, but I think it would be fun if they added lockdown, but instead of a point and click spell, it would be similar to a skillshot in league of legends or dota. The ghost would shoot a projectile into the air that would lockdown the first mech unit it hits, so you could have things like dodging and micro like that. Then it would be unlikely, but possible for ghosts to lockdown key units, but only if they are really good, and would be an interesting way to spice up a boring single target cc spell.
Dont take the suggestion too seriously, I just thought it would be a unique and cool idea!
|
United States22154 Posts
Unit/balance suggestions and ideas go in the battle.net forums.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
