|
Problem
Before presenting my argument I want to make sure everyone understands the problems i'm trying to address. Below are what I believe to be the key concerns related to the Terran race in the HOTS beta:
-Inability of Terran to "mech" against Protoss, primarily due to the immortal (zealot problem seems to have been solved by battle hellions)
-Inability to break siege tank lines in TvT (This is more a Browder concern but i've seen people suggesting adding haywire missles to thors etc.)
-No significant or interesting change in the meta game (Widow Mine and Battle Hellions do not feel as impactful as other races units) - note: I do find the Widow Mine to be very promising
-Getting rid of deathball play in TvP
Proposal
Let's bring back lockdown on the ghost. The unit has felt a little stale after the snipe nerf anyways. In BW this ability locked down a mechanical unit for 60 seconds, leaving it exposed and unable to move or attack (though it could be recalled!). I'm not going to get into a balance discussion on how many seconds or how much energy it should cost. I just want to review what it would bring to the table in terms of strategies and how it addresses the above problems. The only specific stat I will mention is that this ability should have a range of about 8-9 to allow it to be used on colossus but not the siege tank (if it has sight)
-Inability of Terran to "mech" against Protoss, primarily due to the immortal (zealot problem seems to have been solved by battle hellions)
***Lockdown would allow the terran to disable the key units that deter Terran mech play (immortal, colossus). Players already argue that ghost is a must in a tvp mech composition due to the necessity of EMPs to combat immortals. This adds another incentive to include the ghost in this composition. Also, with the addition of the Phase Shields and Recall, Protoss would have 2 reasonable ways to prevent/cure this ability
-Inability to break siege tank lines in TvT (This is more a Browder concern but i've seen people suggesting adding haywire missles to thors etc.)
***Lockdown would allow you to shut down a chunk of a siege contain allowing the player to break or push forward their own siege line or stage a heavy bio attack. However, this doesn't kill tank play in TvT as this could be prevented through good missile turret placement and good use of ravens/scans.
-No significant or interesting change in the meta game (Widow Mine and Battle Hellions do not feel as impactful as other races units)
***Lockdown would add a very interesting (from an esports and player view) component to the game and allows the Oracle to gain a significant amount of utility versus T beyond preventing concussive shells. This would be a great way to pick off Tempests, oracles and warp prisms and encourages positional play. Also it gives the Ghost a whole new feel which could help alleviate the general feeling that Terran is getting nothing new in the expansion
-Getting rid of deathball play in TvP
***What better way to get rid of the deathball then being able to lock down colossus, the unit that encourages it? Zerg is already gaining this ability with abduct. Let's give Terran a comparable ability and make it just as preventable with the oracle.
Thoughts? Thanks for reading!
P.S - If needed snipe could be removed and replaced with lockdown if there is a concern over the ghost having too many abilities.
P.P.S - As some are suggesting, I think this ability would work very well on the Raven too
|
Lockdown would be really interesting to have back!
Locking down colossi might sound messed up to some people, but it's not too bad. Although the TvP match up is supposed to be
Viking > Colossus
Colossus > Ghost
Ghost > HT
HT > Viking
we all know that in deathballs, the protoss army is pretty damn strong (until maybe terran is able to free up more supply via MULEs) unless terran gets a really good engagement
Ghosts are supposed to counter HT, which they do well, but in big engagements, HT storms still do well and can kill ghosts anyways. Ghosts can't do much against colossi, so maybe this lockdown could improve bio as well.
Though I guess some may argue that sniping the observers then forcing the colossi back with Cloak is good enough, but meh.
Edit: Idk if the ghost should have it though. Maybe remove snipe and allow lockdown to work on any unit? X)
Or perhaps ravens could have it. I don't know where lockdown could fit.
|
Thanks Yoshi! I think T3 should be very powerful, but not an end-state (ex: broodlord infestor army versus Protoss where I think the tempest does a good job adjusting). There should never be an "ideal composition". I think being able to shut down a powerful unit like the colossus forces a dynamic shift in the game to different compositions. This is something I want to encourage.
|
the only problem i see with this is that if your going for a 'pure' mech play why bother giving the ghost the lockdown ability? why not give it to a unit like the raven or make a caster mech unit with that ability? some people say that it's hard to get ghost with a mech army since that it costs a lot to have. I mean the yamato cannon just about solves the problem with immortals as they one shot them all the time.
|
On September 27 2012 03:31 Blackknight232 wrote:
the only problem i see with this is that if your going for a 'pure' mech play why bother giving the ghost the lockdown ability? why not give it to a unit like the raven or make a caster mech unit with that ability? some people say that it's hard to get ghost with a mech army since that it costs a lot to have. I mean the yamato cannon just about solves the problem with immortals as they one shot them all the time.
I considered whether the Raven should have it but I decided that the synergies in the TvT and TvP matchups were too great to not have it on the ghost. I like the idea of introducing a decision of whether to EMP or lockdown in TvP and for both TvT and TvP encouraging nuke play again.
|
i can understand that but my ghost micro is not worth a flip so that's why i suggested that because the raven has pdd which is useful in tvt and tvp and if the seeker missile gets a nice buff in terms of range and damage then the lockdown would be nice addition to it's spells instead of the auto turrets and also my bio control in tvp sucks so i've been working on my skyterran play and which is the main reason why i wanted ravens to have it
|
On September 27 2012 03:21 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
Locking down colossi might sound messed up to some people, but it's not too bad.
I hope people dont think this. It's no different that a phoenix lifting a unit or mind control from the infestor. Ghosts do def need something else, they get no merit anymore because they aren't worth a shit for anything but EMP. Lockdown may just be that answer...
|
On September 27 2012 03:41 Blackknight232 wrote:
i can understand that but my ghost micro is not worth a flip so that's why i suggested that because the raven has pdd which is useful in tvt and tvp and if the seeker missile gets a nice buff in terms of range and damage then the lockdown would be nice addition to it's spells instead of the auto turrets and also my bio control in tvp sucks so i've been working on my skyterran play and which is the main reason why i wanted ravens to have it
Good points! I could see it working on the raven as well. Love the idea of it replacing turrets.
|
I'm sorry, I really dislike the idea of going back to SC:BW "stuff".
As Da[9] once put it, he is before anything a nerd that gets excited by the sheer idea of toying with new units.
That is very simple, and I fully agree with that. Move on, I'd say.
|
I'd rather go back to old toys that were fun instead of new toys that are all flash no bang.
|
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless.
|
On September 27 2012 03:48 Murlox wrote:
I'm sorry, I really dislike the idea of going back to SC:BW "stuff".
As Da[9] once put it, he is before anything a nerd that gets excited by the sheer idea of toying with new units.
That is very simple, and I fully agree with that. Move on, I'd say.
I disagree with this. Lockdown in brood war was hardly used at all as deathball play was not that common. I think lockdown in sc2 would be a different sort of animal and feel completely original, even if it isn't lol. Right now too much of the tvp matchup revolves around protecting colossus and immortals. Lets change that.
|
On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless.
First you're crazy
Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe.
I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
|
Mmm not sure how feasible this is. No toss is going to go robo if ghosts can come and neutralize most of your damage potential with these spells.
First, remember that ghosts have emp as well, this leaves you with only a single ability (recall) to get you out of a bad situation.
Second, if people go army heavy with gateway with sprinkled colossus and immortal. This means you usually will not need a huge amount of apm to significantly remove protoss dps.
Add this with battle hellions, you have a terran army that no longer requires stutter step against gateway component of the army, so all apm can be spent on lock down. This makes ghosts the only thing in the army that still requires control.
Further, templar is a viable replacement for robo play. If terran has lockdown, we will see only templar play and robo should go extinct and be as useless as factory is currently against protoss.
With lockdown, ghost remove the protoss's only reliable source of detection, the observer. Just scan, lockdown, and kill. You have to have the observer close to see ghosts but too close and it's dead.
Put these together and ghost just becomes the best caster in the game vs protoss, taking out shields, locking down units, and removing caster support. PVT is going to be a caster game similar to zerg's infester heavy play.
|
On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless. First you're crazy Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe. I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
Wouldn't be against having it be a researched ability at the academy to prevent this.
|
On September 27 2012 04:09 ddrddrddrddr wrote:
Mmm not sure how feasible this is. No toss is going to go robo if ghosts can come and neutralize most of your damage potential with these spells.
First, remember that ghosts have emp as well, this leaves you with only a single ability (recall) to get you out of a bad situation.
Second, if people go army heavy with gateway with sprinkled colossus and immortal. This means you usually will not need a huge amount of apm to significantly remove protoss dps.
Add this with battle hellions, you have a terran army that no longer requires stutter step against gateway component of the army, so all apm can be spent on lock down. This makes ghosts the only thing in the army that still requires control.
Further, templar is a viable replacement for robo play. If terran has lockdown, we will see only templar play and robo should go extinct and be as useless as factory is currently against protoss.
With lockdown, ghost remove the protoss's only reliable source of detection, the observer. Just scan, lockdown, and kill. You have to have the observer close to see ghosts but too close and it's dead.
Put these together and ghost just becomes the best caster in the game vs protoss, taking out shields, locking down units, and removing caster support. PVT is going to be a caster game similar to zerg's infester heavy play.
First, I would argue that the oracle's phase shields also prevent this (not just recall), concussive shells, strike cannons, and emp revealing cloak so this is still very preventable. Not to mention revelation lets you spot the ghosts without an oracle. Also, the templar already has a similar added utility against T right now with feedback that snipe is definitely not comparable to. The more I think about it the more I do think it needs to be a researched skill however.
|
On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
First you're crazy
Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe.
I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
This is just another reason why it's a bad idea to give it to the Ghost, but what I meant is that it would be useless against Immortals. Ghosts would always use EMP in that scenario, and really, Ghosts are way more difficult to incorporate into mech than bio. MECH is what needs to have an Immortal solution, not bio. Lockdown should go to the Raven, not the Ghost.
|
On September 27 2012 04:17 Crawdad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:
First you're crazy
Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe.
I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us. This is just another reason why it's a bad idea to give it to the Ghost, but what I meant is that it would be useless against Immortals. Ghosts would always use EMP in that scenario, and really, Ghosts are way more difficult to incorporate into mech than bio. MECH is what needs to have an Immortal solution, not bio. Lockdown should go to the Raven, not the Ghost.
Thanks Crawdad, I agree it would work very well on the Raven too and added it to the OP.
|
So give lockdown to thors instead of strike cannons.
|
On September 27 2012 04:05 SigmaoctanusIV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2012 03:52 Crawdad wrote:
To be honest, if Lockdown were given to the Ghost, it would be useless. First you're crazy Second Ghost timings off 2 base would almost be unstoppable by Protoss, One of the only things that hold them off now are if Protoss teched to Storm or Colossus. if you get a lockdown on that first Colossus the game is over since protoss can't fight bio without aoe. I do agree that lockdown is a good ability but shutting down Protoss that hard so early in the game would just ruin us.
Didnt protoss just get an ability to counter single target abilities?? i think that should fix that problem or like another poster suggested just add research at an academy
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
