EPTA Deeper Reason For the Queen Range Buff? - Page 3
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YaShock
Hungary119 Posts
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
On September 09 2012 18:35 dreamseller wrote: the OP is DRG 8/10 for this thread. possibly this is a troll involving the "queendralisk" mentality; the OP seeks to involve queens as a viable offensive unit in what is obviously not a viable role as a spinoff of its excellent (some say OP in early game) defensive abilities the philosophy quotes and much of the other replies should be treated as banter and red herring type fallacies of argument but prove to be entertaining nonetheless, and there are few people in the world who could not benefit from reading Plato and for that at least I thank the OP A.) I am not DRG, I am kyfoid, google. B.) I was only trying to make the point that zergling + Queen is suppose to form a whole cooperation between each other to produce an equal power against pure marines or pure zealots. (remember in sc broodwar where zerg HAD to make defense when T or P made zealot or marine? When any race is FORCED to make defense but couldn't properly push out to expand via offense? This is bad for the game and e-sports... now... everyone knows what zerg had to go through in broodwar, and now everyone has to make defense outside of what should be a progressive and AGGRESSIVE rock paper scissors dance...Giving the queen a light offensive attack to use energy effeciently(Acid spores) but making the zerglings(6) also take a ratio of damage around it(via life link) makes the queen/ling combo act as a singular force as people will potentially be more interested in targeting the queen, which is simply better then the forced defense(spinecrawler or spore) that zerg had to and still has to go through to some degree to this day. Currently we are forced in to the production of roach, and correspondingly forces the opponent in to defense, and now everyone complains about zerg for the same problem that zerg had in broodwar where all the T and P players said "oh zerg is balanced, get real noob". Those are now the hypocrites that are complaining that Z is OP when all zerg has is roach now to make you get defense... how does it fricken feel now? Now you know what we had to go through. http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/6522892734 C.) Sc2, the wrong kind of simplicity. | ||
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X3GoldDot
Malaysia3840 Posts
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:16 X3GoldDot wrote: theres a reason why ppl go mass roaches +infestors and some hydras in zvzs lol, its becuz its the best way to win and the only real way to win aside from the occasional lingfestor ultra on some maps like daybreak for example.... I don't know about you, but I want to play a game that is somewhat more intellegent then that.. one that has a meaning and purpose for things. Like queen + Baneling combo where queens unburrow and pick off overseers and burrow back down...while you make completely effecient use of + attack banelings by exploding them one by one as mines to counter roaches. Roaches might be regenerating life underground... but maybe my queens are casting transfuse on each other underground correspondingly.... Maybe ... as the baneling consideration to move them underground, which we saw Dustin Browder admit could very well be a possibility, which has now been removed from the game, could have actually worked if the nydus worm moved underground and released banelings from underneath... or acted as a sort of nuke with the banelings exploding from inside of it as it bust out from underneath the ground which enhances the damage of the banelings to some degree. Problems.. problems. We demand a balanced and intelligent game damn it. It's it's no one elses fault but your own, whoever you are, for letting the game get like this... Stand up, take some fricken responsibility, acknowledge the unfortunate reality and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On September 09 2012 16:42 LgNKami wrote: I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups... You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz. you can go mech and get tanks... bfh... | ||
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Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them. | ||
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boxman22
Canada430 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:50 LgNKami wrote: sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them. So they'd add marauders. Mirror matchups do not require mirror builds. Sometimes they become mirrors but not necessarily. Also these posts are decently epic. He made his one on the superpowered queen almost seem like he was just a gold qq'ing because he loses to drops a lot, but this one reaches a new level of beauty. | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
So I take it that the swarm host is suppose to counter the roach in about the same way the tank counters the marauder? I've been waiting for HOTS for far too long ... far too long. But I will not be playing hots because races are still forced to make defense instead of engage in a progressive/aggressive rock paper scissors dance to support e-sports. Back to warcraft 3 for me... | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On September 09 2012 19:50 LgNKami wrote: sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them. point is, it's not literally a mirror match | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
On September 09 2012 20:13 Chaggi wrote: point is, it's not literally a mirror match Which I think says something about the root problem of this game... As much as my opponent hates making defense when I make roaches, believe me, I equally hate being forced to make them in the first place. It's almost as bad as when we, as zerg in bw, hit that point where when we started to make sunken colonies, we had to keep making sunken colonies if the opponent kept making zealots or marines. Almost as bad? or Worse? I don't know because I know what zerg had to go through in broodwar and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy... making my T and P opponents feel like I did, didnt't really help anyone. The way of thinking is like "Ok, let's take this focused problem with zerg in broodwar, and spread it out more equally among the races in sc2" Thank you blizzard, this corrected everything. :FACEPALM: | ||
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Luisa_2
Germany200 Posts
Btw what league are you playing? | ||
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ulfryc
Germany115 Posts
But really, if you want to play an intelligent game go play chess. | ||
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Uncreative_Troll
98 Posts
There isn't only ZvZ: Moving burrowed Banelings are most likely op vs Terran. Burrowed spread out Banelings can't be cost efficient vs heavy armored 145 hp Roaches (require 8 Banelings right now) who cost the same as a Banelings without buffing the damage which makes Banelings op vs Protoss/Terran. To snipe Overseer fast with Queens you either need to remove many hitpoints (which harms scouting and detection in all match ups) or you need to buff Queen airdamage so hard that airunits are useless vs Zerg. "Zerg-Nukes" with suddenly exploding Nydus will end mech in TvZ. It's great that there are defensive structures in this game because it gives more options to tech fast or expand greedy. | ||
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AtlasMech
United States105 Posts
When pros had more trouble against terran then against protoss, I was confused, but I think my playstyle was different then pros. ZvT- I would expand and rush to lord speed and queens... sometimes this was so offensively threatening alone that they would make turrets which would allow me to take 3rd easier, but it still was impossible to hold against good players. With a few queens you could simultaneously scout and build energy... and decide on if you wanted to make ensnare or broodling... immediately after lord speed and queens I would have lurker research going, and the lord speed would be immediately followed up by drops. I can't tell you how many games I won by picking off the tanks with broodlings while either dropping or bluff dropping lurkers and moving out to the front of his natural to do a lurker push. If they went wraith it was simply an immediate switch to ensnare hydra. ZvP- I felt like zerg was underpowered for one reason and one reason alone... we couldn't put our spore colonies anywhere we wanted... sure, the sunken colonies could be limited to creep but spore colonies got screwed. It was WAYY to impossible to have to wait through hatchery build times to get a spore colony up as fast as you possibly fricken could. In zvp I would go plague, upgraded spine lurker, cracklings, and use parasites for safety scouting. But was the game still balanced? Do I know what I'm talking about? nah. | ||
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KapsyL
Sweden704 Posts
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uzushould
Austria122 Posts
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dreamseller
Australia914 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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jWavA
United States73 Posts
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MisterFred
United States2033 Posts
Eventually you have to counter roaches with spine/infestor, aiming for a tight-as-possible 3-base defense (maybe with a hidden base if you managed to clear their overlords or they were lazy with them). The key part, as you've noticed, is that if you engage roaches in the open field once armies get big enough, you will almost always lose if you don't have your own roaches. So turtle, and turtle HARD. Hold tight to your wall of spines and turtle up until... ultra/infestor/ling! Ultras kill roaches. Infestors stop roaches from being kited. If you spread creep well enough, queens heal ultras and fend off pesky mutas. Basically, Scarlett-style ZvZ pre-WCS. Edit: One of the things you seem to be missing is that picking which units to build is a relatively small part of SC2 strategy. Troop movement, where to engage, predicting enemy play, and proper use of abilities are all more important skills than choosing a unit composition. | ||
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