For people who are tired of fighting roaches with roaches?
Theoretically speaking, if I go Hydra/Baneling it should be able to counter roaches... but does it?
I guess you would have to go heavy on the melee upgrade to get the + 5 damage, use the banelings as mines by spreading them burrowed... then use creep to do hit and run tactics on roaches as they chase you back to your base and you detonate individual banelings 1 by 1 to get the most cost effecient use...
Also, imagine if he tried to burrow roaches and you used your overseer to blow mines as he crawled underground towards you...
Does that sound right?
But isn't splitting hydra and baneling too expensive?
I guess if I wanted to counter roaches with something other then roaches or mutas (Mutas just being too late of tech) I would have to go for.... Queens and Banelings....
So with this long attack range on the queen, I can pick off the overseers to protect my banelings...
So what am I suppose to do when I try to run with my queens, but I can't?
I guess I'm suppose to pick off the overseer with a group of queens and then burrow my queens to protect them....
and then when he comes at my base, I'm suppose to explode the banelings 1 by 1?
I'm just sick and tired of fighting roaches with roaches... and I do believe it's possible to fight roaches with something other then roaches.... infestors don't work or count.
Sometimes, I almost feel like the hydralisk den was suppose to unlock both hydras and banelings...
Do you ever feel that way?
So the queen range is suppose to make queen + bane the real root philosophy strength of zerg so that the queen can adequately pick off detectors like observers and overseers, which supposedly can buy you macro time?
Someone please tell me that this is a viable way to fight roaches with out having to make roaches and give me some advice on how to MAKE it work...
umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
you can fight roaches with banelings, but the best way to do it is not with dispersed burrowed banelings, which is a huge gimmick move. Excellent surrounds with multiple groups of ling baneling is the way to go.
It seems you are most scared of burrowed roach attacks, which are also gimmick at best. If you really want to counter gimmick with gimmick then I guess it would be appropriate.
And as the poster above me said, ling infestor is a legitimate and accepted non-roach way to fight roach. By the time you have cracklings you should also have ultra, which are neccesary to kill the roaches as upgraded lings vs upgraded roaches will still lose, you simply use the lings to get there.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups...
You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz.
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
This game revolves around an immediate rock paper scissors design...
With the mutalisk not being an adequate way to react to roach in timing, it means there must be some other way to handle or counter roaches, with out going roaches.
Therefore, burrowed and spread banes with the +1 ups using queens to pick off overseer must be the ideal way to handle/counter roaches.
The queens are also support attack against roaches along the way, as they can also burrow...
Maybe the queen should be able to burrow and move underground?
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
This game revolves around an immediate rock paper scissors design...
With the mutalisk not being an adequate way to react to roach in timing, it means there must be some other way to handle or counter roaches, with out going roaches.
Therefore, burrowed and spread banes + queens must be the ideal way to handle/counter roaches.
On September 09 2012 16:41 nkr wrote: ultralisks and fungal destroy roaches, so do broodlords :p
lol. Queens are fucking terrible vs roaches and cannot by any means pick off overseers in any viable manner. Amazing how you can say infestors don't count when infestors are a very good unit vs mass roach. Lings are good to abuse lack of mobility of roaches, but really there aren't that many units. You can use mutas as well. Sounds like you're being overly picky.
How the fuck you say mutas aren't viable vs roach timings but BURROWED BANELINGS ARE is beyond me. What you're even going on about picking off 200 hp overseers is just too much. I can't help but assume you're dicking around. And I'm usually fairly nice to out there theorycrafts.
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
This game revolves around an immediate rock paper scissors design...
With the mutalisk not being an adequate way to react to roach in timing, it means there must be some other way to handle or counter roaches, with out going roaches.
Therefore, burrowed and spread banes with the +1 ups using queens to pick off overseer must be the ideal way to handle/counter roaches.
Except not. It's a mirror match. Meaning if you're not using the most beneficial army combination in the game, you're doing it wrong. Ling bane will cost 10x more to minerals/gas to kill an equal supply of roaches, therefore you're doing it wrong. Sorry you're not going to randomly meta game ling bane against roaches after 2 years of people attempting different stuff. It's this way for a reason. It's the most cost efficient army in zvz.
On September 09 2012 16:46 FabledIntegral wrote: lol. Queens are fucking terrible vs roaches and cannot by any means pick off overseers in any viable manner. Amazing how you can say infestors don't count when infestors are a very good unit vs mass roach. Lings are good to abuse lack of mobility of roaches, but really there aren't that many units. You can use mutas as well. Sounds like you're being overly picky.
So your suggestion is... to go infestor + queen to kill roaches... because I've even tried infestor crackling and it doesn't work...
How the fuck you say mutas aren't viable vs roach timings but BURROWED BANELINGS ARE is beyond me. What you're even going on about picking off 200 hp overseers is just too much. I can't help but assume you're dicking around. And I'm usually fairly nice to out there theorycrafts.
Not only does burrow come way before spire in timing...
There is also the proxied production which also shaves off a load of time.
On September 09 2012 16:46 FabledIntegral wrote: lol. Queens are fucking terrible vs roaches and cannot by any means pick off overseers in any viable manner. Amazing how you can say infestors don't count when infestors are a very good unit vs mass roach. Lings are good to abuse lack of mobility of roaches, but really there aren't that many units. You can use mutas as well. Sounds like you're being overly picky.
So your suggestion is... to go infestor + queen to kill roaches... because I've even tried infestor crackling and it doesn't work...
Hmm... maybe I will do that... thank you.
Then you're a bad player or you did it wrong. Or you're just massively trolling. Which is most likely because you keep suggesting queens when they are awful for the roles you're suggesting.
Really the reason why everyone goes Roach/Infestor in ZvZ is that it is the most efficient use of resources for the current metagame. You can viably go Mutas vs. Roach/X strats, but you have to be EXTREMELY careful to prepare just in case they allin.
On September 09 2012 16:53 Antimatterz wrote: Really the reason why everyone goes Roach/Infestor in ZvZ is that it is the most efficient use of resources for the current metagame. You can viably go Mutas vs. Roach/X strats, but you have to be EXTREMELY careful to prepare just in case they allin.
So in this game of rock paper scissors, if he goes rock... there is A CHANCE that I can hit him from above with paper...
Thank god, I almost thought that this game was somewhat weak in dynamics for a second.
I have been having some good fun playing rock paper scissors with my girlfriend lately though...
I really don't see the queen buff coming into this very much. I think your experience with zvz roach engagements is lacking if you think you can theorycraft your way out of having to make roaches, though. You basically need to make zerglings and roaches in zvz just to survive to get anything else. At the start of the match you need lings, and you may be able to get by without making any banes. But you need roaches if the game stretches out. I'm not saying you can't get some mutalisks or infestors (especially when you are ahead), but losing the roach numbers means you can't defend yourself from his roach numbers.
You know how they were debating on whether banelings should move underground or not?
Well what if the nydus worm, with its ridiculous cost... could move underground and release banelings above him...
Would this not fit properly for the cost of this unit?
And wouldn't it be an alternative way to attack roaches?
Or let's say that you fungal a group of roaches and you have banes loaded in to nydus... Couldn't there be that period of time when the exit is coming up from underground and it vulnerable, but explodes that number of banes in the nydus worm from underneath the army of roaches?
I'm thinking that... this concept is like a familiar concept to the nuke that terran has...
Maybe the nydus worm would kind of enhance the damage of the banelings as it is kind of an explosion in and of itself as it comes up from underneath the ground, and sort of enhances the damage of the banelings.
On September 09 2012 17:08 AtlasMech wrote: You know how they were debating on whether banelings should move underground or not?
Well what if the nydus worm, with its ridiculous cost... could move underground and release banelings above him...
Would this not fit properly for the cost of this unit?
And wouldn't it be an alternative way to attack roaches?
Or let's say that you fungal a group of roaches and you have banes loaded in to nydus... Couldn't there be that period of time when the exit is coming up from underground and it vulnerable, but explodes that number of banes in the nydus worm from underneath the army of roaches?
I'm thinking that... this concept is like a familiar concept to the nuke that terran has...
Maybe the nydus worm would kind of enhance the damage of the banelings as it is kind of an explosion in and of itself as it comes up from underneath the ground, and sort of enhances the damage of the banelings in a large release....
I guess you would need to be able to cancel it so as to not waste it comepletely...
Srsly, what league are you in OP. Your post show very bad understanding of the game and include way to much theorycrafting. Also I don't get why you think there must be a rock/paper/sissor system somewhere hidden in ZvZ and you just must find the perfect counter to roaches. ling/infestor and ling/muta have shown to be viable on the highest level of play, so you're doing something wrong, when you say they don't work. Probably you are just noch a good enough player to execute them.
On September 09 2012 17:30 ulfryc wrote: Srsly, what league are you in OP. Your post show very bad understanding of the game and include way to much theorycrafting. Also I don't get why you think there must be a rock/paper/sissor system somewhere hidden in ZvZ and you just must find the perfect counter to roaches. ling/infestor and ling/muta have shown to be viable on the highest level of play, so you're doing something wrong, when you say they don't work. Probably you are just noch a good enough player to execute them.
Oh, I see, so starcraft 2 is a rock paper scissors game of
Air to Ground > Ground to Ground Ground to Air > Air to Ground Ground to Ground > Ground to Air
So this is the amazing rock paper scissors system huh?
While all other units like zerglings are just particularly designed for buildings as they run past opponent, and banes truly only particlarly designed for workers...
It seems that there really only is a select small number of units that are part of the rock paper scissors system.
I kind of had the vision of a rock paper scissors system with in a rock paper scissors system that was a "Simplicity as the Ultimate Sophistication" leonardo Da Vinci
I leave you now with plato.
“Beauty of style which is determined by harmony, grace, and good rhythm depends on simplicity, I mean the true simplicity of a rightly and nobly ordered mind and character, not that other simplicity which is only a euphemism for folly." - Plato
It seems that starcraft 2 is the wrong kind of simplicity for me and Da Vinci... it is the simple one.
possibly this is a troll involving the "queendralisk" mentality; the OP seeks to involve queens as a viable offensive unit in what is obviously not a viable role as a spinoff of its excellent (some say OP in early game) defensive abilities
the philosophy quotes and much of the other replies should be treated as banter and red herring type fallacies of argument but prove to be entertaining nonetheless, and there are few people in the world who could not benefit from reading Plato and for that at least I thank the OP
Here is my Plato quote: "Do not use banelings to counter roaches, it will never work. And do not post stupid threads on a forum, when you have no clue about the game." -Plato
On September 09 2012 18:35 dreamseller wrote: the OP is DRG
8/10 for this thread.
possibly this is a troll involving the "queendralisk" mentality; the OP seeks to involve queens as a viable offensive unit in what is obviously not a viable role as a spinoff of its excellent (some say OP in early game) defensive abilities
the philosophy quotes and much of the other replies should be treated as banter and red herring type fallacies of argument but prove to be entertaining nonetheless, and there are few people in the world who could not benefit from reading Plato and for that at least I thank the OP
A.) I am not DRG, I am kyfoid, google.
B.) I was only trying to make the point that zergling + Queen is suppose to form a whole cooperation between each other to produce an equal power against pure marines or pure zealots. (remember in sc broodwar where zerg HAD to make defense when T or P made zealot or marine? When any race is FORCED to make defense but couldn't properly push out to expand via offense? This is bad for the game and e-sports... now... everyone knows what zerg had to go through in broodwar, and now everyone has to make defense outside of what should be a progressive and AGGRESSIVE rock paper scissors dance...Giving the queen a light offensive attack to use energy effeciently(Acid spores) but making the zerglings(6) also take a ratio of damage around it(via life link) makes the queen/ling combo act as a singular force as people will potentially be more interested in targeting the queen, which is simply better then the forced defense(spinecrawler or spore) that zerg had to and still has to go through to some degree to this day. Currently we are forced in to the production of roach, and correspondingly forces the opponent in to defense, and now everyone complains about zerg for the same problem that zerg had in broodwar where all the T and P players said "oh zerg is balanced, get real noob". Those are now the hypocrites that are complaining that Z is OP when all zerg has is roach now to make you get defense... how does it fricken feel now? Now you know what we had to go through.
theres a reason why ppl go mass roaches +infestors and some hydras in zvzs lol, its becuz its the best way to win and the only real way to win aside from the occasional lingfestor ultra on some maps like daybreak for example....
On September 09 2012 19:16 X3GoldDot wrote: theres a reason why ppl go mass roaches +infestors and some hydras in zvzs lol, its becuz its the best way to win and the only real way to win aside from the occasional lingfestor ultra on some maps like daybreak for example....
I don't know about you, but I want to play a game that is somewhat more intellegent then that.. one that has a meaning and purpose for things.
Like queen + Baneling combo where queens unburrow and pick off overseers and burrow back down...while you make completely effecient use of + attack banelings by exploding them one by one as mines to counter roaches.
Roaches might be regenerating life underground... but maybe my queens are casting transfuse on each other underground correspondingly....
Maybe ... as the baneling consideration to move them underground, which we saw Dustin Browder admit could very well be a possibility, which has now been removed from the game, could have actually worked if the nydus worm moved underground and released banelings from underneath... or acted as a sort of nuke with the banelings exploding from inside of it as it bust out from underneath the ground which enhances the damage of the banelings to some degree.
Problems.. problems.
We demand a balanced and intelligent game damn it.
It's it's no one elses fault but your own, whoever you are, for letting the game get like this...
Stand up, take some fricken responsibility, acknowledge the unfortunate reality and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups...
You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups...
You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz.
you can go mech and get tanks... bfh...
sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups...
You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz.
you can go mech and get tanks... bfh...
sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them.
So they'd add marauders. Mirror matchups do not require mirror builds. Sometimes they become mirrors but not necessarily.
Also these posts are decently epic. He made his one on the superpowered queen almost seem like he was just a gold qq'ing because he loses to drops a lot, but this one reaches a new level of beauty.
So I take it that the swarm host is suppose to counter the roach in about the same way the tank counters the marauder?
I've been waiting for HOTS for far too long ... far too long.
But I will not be playing hots because races are still forced to make defense instead of engage in a progressive/aggressive rock paper scissors dance to support e-sports.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups...
You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz.
you can go mech and get tanks... bfh...
sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them.
On September 09 2012 16:35 LgNKami wrote: umm, banelings vs roaches? Only way to kill roaches is by getting infestors and roaches... hydras do a ton of damage but are too slow vs speed roaches and cant tank any damage.
So mirror match ups are literally mirror match ups?
Great...
Can someone please tell me what the counter for boredom is?
I mean, its the same thing in all mirror matchups...
You can go mass marauder vs mass marine but then what would be the result? marines would destroy. Only way to kill mass marines is to either go mass marines or have better mechanics. Same with all races. Roaches are such a meaty unit that the only real way to get rid of a roach army is roaches. Mirrors are more of a test of mechanics and positioning really, especially mid-late game zvz.
you can go mech and get tanks... bfh...
sure but then the person with the marines wouldnt mass them.
point is, it's not literally a mirror match
Which I think says something about the root problem of this game... As much as my opponent hates making defense when I make roaches, believe me, I equally hate being forced to make them in the first place.
It's almost as bad as when we, as zerg in bw, hit that point where when we started to make sunken colonies, we had to keep making sunken colonies if the opponent kept making zealots or marines.
Almost as bad? or Worse?
I don't know because I know what zerg had to go through in broodwar and I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy... making my T and P opponents feel like I did, didnt't really help anyone.
The way of thinking is like "Ok, let's take this focused problem with zerg in broodwar, and spread it out more equally among the races in sc2" Thank you blizzard, this corrected everything. :FACEPALM:
The problem with going queens vs roaches is this build time, besides queens are awful vs roaches. You get outproduced so fast, it's not even funny. Btw what league are you playing?
You don't have to make roaches ... Especially not if you are only Gold. Build lings, when you get fast +1 they absolutely rape roaches in small numbers. Go for intelligent runbys in the mid game. Stall the roach player until you get infestors out. Then play timing attack, go for base trade or stall into ultralisk/broodlord. You can play zvz very intelligently.
But really, if you want to play an intelligent game go play chess.
Not every unit combination need to be viable (and have a "deeper sense") in every match up.
There isn't only ZvZ: Moving burrowed Banelings are most likely op vs Terran. Burrowed spread out Banelings can't be cost efficient vs heavy armored 145 hp Roaches (require 8 Banelings right now) who cost the same as a Banelings without buffing the damage which makes Banelings op vs Protoss/Terran. To snipe Overseer fast with Queens you either need to remove many hitpoints (which harms scouting and detection in all match ups) or you need to buff Queen airdamage so hard that airunits are useless vs Zerg. "Zerg-Nukes" with suddenly exploding Nydus will end mech in TvZ.
It's great that there are defensive structures in this game because it gives more options to tech fast or expand greedy.
For the record, I was there all the way through broodwar and although zerg had their defensive problem where they were forced to make large amounts of defense, I found ways to make surviving (not winning) possible on 2 base with the effort to also try to keep my T or P opponent on 2 base until we both run out of minerals.
When pros had more trouble against terran then against protoss, I was confused, but I think my playstyle was different then pros.
ZvT- I would expand and rush to lord speed and queens... sometimes this was so offensively threatening alone that they would make turrets which would allow me to take 3rd easier, but it still was impossible to hold against good players. With a few queens you could simultaneously scout and build energy... and decide on if you wanted to make ensnare or broodling... immediately after lord speed and queens I would have lurker research going, and the lord speed would be immediately followed up by drops. I can't tell you how many games I won by picking off the tanks with broodlings while either dropping or bluff dropping lurkers and moving out to the front of his natural to do a lurker push. If they went wraith it was simply an immediate switch to ensnare hydra.
ZvP- I felt like zerg was underpowered for one reason and one reason alone... we couldn't put our spore colonies anywhere we wanted... sure, the sunken colonies could be limited to creep but spore colonies got screwed. It was WAYY to impossible to have to wait through hatchery build times to get a spore colony up as fast as you possibly fricken could. In zvp I would go plague, upgraded spine lurker, cracklings, and use parasites for safety scouting.
But was the game still balanced? Do I know what I'm talking about?
holy shit op is a retard lol, even i as terra can only laugh about your stategys.....this must either be the pipedream of a bronze league player or some serios trolling
you make an interesting point about the poor state of the rock paper scissors dynamic in this game and why there are what military tacticians call "technology mismatch" issues with the dynamic - for example heavy advantages late game for some races and vice versa for early game.
Can someone change the title of this? this seems pretty exxagerated as far as a title goes for a post about hydras and banelings. I might not understand the OP, but it seems kind of out there.
I don't see how the OP hasn't even been warned yet... he's had like 10 posts exactly like this in SC2 General and all of them were closed. I think it's pretty apparent that it's a troll.
You counter roaches with lings. Problem is, you have to increase the pace of the game & initiate trades at every opportunity, as roaches get better vs lings as army sizes increase.
Eventually you have to counter roaches with spine/infestor, aiming for a tight-as-possible 3-base defense (maybe with a hidden base if you managed to clear their overlords or they were lazy with them). The key part, as you've noticed, is that if you engage roaches in the open field once armies get big enough, you will almost always lose if you don't have your own roaches. So turtle, and turtle HARD.
Hold tight to your wall of spines and turtle up until... ultra/infestor/ling! Ultras kill roaches. Infestors stop roaches from being kited. If you spread creep well enough, queens heal ultras and fend off pesky mutas.
Basically, Scarlett-style ZvZ pre-WCS.
Edit: One of the things you seem to be missing is that picking which units to build is a relatively small part of SC2 strategy. Troop movement, where to engage, predicting enemy play, and proper use of abilities are all more important skills than choosing a unit composition.
People use baneling rain against stalkers and come out ok. Although roaches are cheaper keep in mind: roaches cannot blink,and they have enough less health for 1 less baneling to kill them I'm pretty sure? I don't see why not. Protoss can remake stalkers even faster too with wg+chrono
I don't know where the OP is going with this. Is this supposed to be a help thread, or are you just qqing and trolling? Have you tried the idea(s) you're proposing in an actual game? Try it yourself...after some testing, you may find why the metagame currently is what it is, and thus answer your own question(s). Unless you've tried this and come up with some ideas/analysis/data of some sort, this does not really warrant it's own thread imho.
On September 09 2012 22:58 Barrin wrote: Sounds more like a crisis management tactic (sickest plays material) than something to aim for.
Imagine queens popping up to snipe overseers..
And then the person is like "what a fool, he brought his queens out here?" I'm enticed to chase these queens...
The queens lure roaches over perfectly spread baneling mines over an area...
then... explode...
The thing that is most frustrating about zerg is not being able to use banelings in the most efficient manner possible, perhaps, in other words, not being able to get a perfect spread.
Some times I wish there were buttons for auto formations... but mainly for the baneling.
On September 09 2012 16:53 Antimatterz wrote: Really the reason why everyone goes Roach/Infestor in ZvZ is that it is the most efficient use of resources for the current metagame. You can viably go Mutas vs. Roach/X strats, but you have to be EXTREMELY careful to prepare just in case they allin.
So in this game of rock paper scissors, if he goes rock... there is A CHANCE that I can hit him from above with paper...
Thank god, I almost thought that this game was somewhat weak in dynamics for a second.
I have been having some good fun playing rock paper scissors with my girlfriend lately though...
I think starcraft 2 is just too advanced for me.
If you don't want help why are you asking for it? What the fuck.
So get this... Imagine if there was a formation button for banelings...
So you take your set of banelings and they space them self apart properly according to splash...
Now, you know that if you were to lure roaches over your banes using queens and explode those banes.. that your not going to get roach kills, and he will run back and burrow, and burrow..heal up... you know that your banes were a complete waste.
But with the formation button, you could layer two sets of banes perfectly on top of each other getting both higher damage and optimum efficiency of cost.
And wouldn't two sets of banes layered over each other with + 1 attack be just the perfect set up to get the group of roaches dead?
What if the queen actually had this formation command?
Like the commander of a mob... The banelings are too stupid to do it themselves, but the queen had the power of the overmind to call the formation if he is in the vicinity....
That way we aren't making it a noob friendly thing that the other races some how deserve...
We have a queen, and our queen is not fulfilling his overmind duty...
Familiar things happen and mankind does not bother about them. It takes a very unusual mind to undertake the analysis of the obvious. (Alfred North Whitehead, Science in the Modern World)
We are like people looking for something they have in their hands all the time; we're looking in all directions except at the thing we want, which is probably why we haven't found it. (Plato, 380BC)
The unapparent connection is more powerful than the apparent one. (Heraclitus)
I deal with the obvious. I present, reiterate and glorify the obvious - because the obvious is what people need to be told. (Dale Carnegie)
There is nothing as deceptive as an obvious fact. (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle)
The best place to hide a needle is in a stack of needles. (Robert Heinlein)
No question is so difficult to answer as that to which the answer is obvious. (George Bernard Shaw)
That's the way things come clear. All of a sudden! And then you realize how obvious they've been all along. (Madeleine L'Engle)
The obvious is that which is never seen until someone expresses it. (Kahlil Gibran)
Nothing evades our attention as persistently as that which is taken for granted. (Gustav Ichheiser)
Because it’s familiar, a thing remains unknown. (Hegel)
Most human beings have an almost infinite capacity for taking things for granted. (Aldous Huxley)
Experience has shown that science frequently develops most fruitfully once we learn to examine the things that seem the simplest, instead of those that seem the most mysterious. (Marvin Minsky)
The aspects of things that are most important for us are hidden because of their simplicity and familiarity. (One is unable to notice something - because it is always before one's eyes). The real foundations of his enquiry do not strike a man at all. Unless THAT fact has at some time struck him. And this means: we fail to be struck by what, once seen, is most striking and most powerful. (Ludwig Wittgenstein)
What I call the 'normal syndrome' that humans do not notice that which is normal. e.g.
Gravity - How remarkable it is that we are stuck to the Earth, that the earth orbits the sun, which orbits the milky way galaxy and so on ... as gravity exists across the observable universe. Yet there is no obvious connection between these things - we just call it gravity and forget about it.
Space - We all exist in three dimensional space, yet we never seem to think about Space! though it obviously surrounds us every where we go!
Light - The fact that we can see stars across the observable universe, which means that we are somehow interconnected with all this other matter many billions of light years away in Space. It is obvious that this is true when we look at the night sky - but how few people really think about this (it is just 'normal')!
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
He's a troll on the battle.net forums using the same name. His kind of trolling is the kind where he just spews random bullshit out until he gets banned. This is the second account he's used on the battle.net forums (the other got banned). Everyone usually just posts KT;DR (Kyfoid thread;didn't read).
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
He's a troll on the battle.net forums using the same name. His kind of trolling is the kind where he just spews random bullshit out until he gets banned. This is the second account he's used on the battle.net forums (the other got banned). Everyone usually just posts KT;DR (Kyfoid thread;didn't read).
“Genius - the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic bullshit that all makes perfect sense”. Jason Zebehazy
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
He's a troll on the battle.net forums using the same name. His kind of trolling is the kind where he just spews random bullshit out until he gets banned. This is the second account he's used on the battle.net forums (the other got banned). Everyone usually just posts KT;DR (Kyfoid thread;didn't read).
“Genius - the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic bullshit that all makes perfect sense”. Jason Zebehazy
lol, I cant believe you waste time doing stuff like this. I hope you get paid for it, otherwise its just a big sloppy waste.
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
He's a troll on the battle.net forums using the same name. His kind of trolling is the kind where he just spews random bullshit out until he gets banned. This is the second account he's used on the battle.net forums (the other got banned). Everyone usually just posts KT;DR (Kyfoid thread;didn't read).
“Genius - the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic bullshit that all makes perfect sense”. Jason Zebehazy
lol, I cant believe you waste time doing stuff like this. I hope you get paid for it, otherwise its just a big sloppy waste.
"Pain and foolishness lead to great bliss and complete knowledge for eternal wisdom created nothing under the sun in vein" Khalil Gibran
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
He's a troll on the battle.net forums using the same name. His kind of trolling is the kind where he just spews random bullshit out until he gets banned. This is the second account he's used on the battle.net forums (the other got banned). Everyone usually just posts KT;DR (Kyfoid thread;didn't read).
“Genius - the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic bullshit that all makes perfect sense”. Jason Zebehazy
lol, I cant believe you waste time doing stuff like this. I hope you get paid for it, otherwise its just a big sloppy waste.
You just broke the cardinal rule of a Kyfoid/AtlasMech thread. Responding to him directly. Don't do that, just ignore the thread as a whole.
On September 09 2012 16:38 Sepheren wrote: what... is... this...?
is this a troll, a non-native speaker... or a crazy person?
banelings aren't good vs. roaches at all, i don't care what other unit they're with. Upgrade your lings or go muta if you don't want to play roach vs. roach.
Look up muta builds, I know you said they were to late in tech, but that's the only common practice. Even then, you switch back into roaches. I guess you could all in with ling/bane every game.
He's a troll on the battle.net forums using the same name. His kind of trolling is the kind where he just spews random bullshit out until he gets banned. This is the second account he's used on the battle.net forums (the other got banned). Everyone usually just posts KT;DR (Kyfoid thread;didn't read).
“Genius - the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic bullshit that all makes perfect sense”. Jason Zebehazy
lol, I cant believe you waste time doing stuff like this. I hope you get paid for it, otherwise its just a big sloppy waste.
You just broke the cardinal rule of a Kyfoid/AtlasMech thread. Responding to him directly. Don't do that, just ignore the thread as a whole.
This is true. He has enough grounding in philosophy to make there seem to be an air of sense about his posts, but universally, they are all theorycrafts about how Zerg is 'supposed to work' based on his own opinion that SC2 is supposed to be Rock/Paper/Scissors, and somehow the way Zerg is designed is fundamentally flawed based on philosophy. It's like staring at one of those Escher prints - it seems like it should make sense, but actually trying to come to grips with it will break your brain.
The long and the short of it is that nothing the OP suggested makes actual strategic or practical sense in a real game but you will be hard pressed to have a real conversation about it.
How about how queens are expected to eventually be used offensively due to the fact that minerals are not infinite, and queens occupy supply. Why then does zerg's true power of aggression begin with transfused ultras and broodlords since that is the time where you can best use them offensively?
Remember starcraft broodwar where there was a point category for units lost? Um yeah... guess who had the highest score for THAT category?? that's right ... me... and many times I would have the highest score for units lost because I implemented the philosophy of zerg and how their army just keeps coming and coming... but guess what, it never worked to help you get a win what so ever. It proved my aggression and I always targeted the high costing units, (gas ones).
That is why queens need a light offensive ability to use up any excess or regenerating energy for something like an acid spore that does slow damage over time with a ratio of life drained to energy spent... that way there is something of a queen offensive sense... probably not this queen range upgrade.
At least I was the winner in the category of the loser.
And that's what I would tell my opponent every time he beat lost against me.
But I'm mainly saying that the queen needs this ability so that the queen/ling relationship can make up a cooperative whole with each other...(lings being the strong offense weak defense, queen being the weak offense strong defense)
I realized that if the queen was drawing attention to it with its + 1 armor, that people would waste hits on queens and get eaten up alive by zerglings, which is way I figured that at least 6 lings in the vicinity would share life with the queen in a proper ratio and lose life as the queen does.
The current system leaves no real incentive to target the queen, and so the ling army is targeted first, dies pretty quick, and then queens are left only to sadly waste a bit of time and money as they transfuse each other until they die.
The whole point to this is to equalize zerg in their basic army(zergling) + queens with pure marines or pure zealots.... because in broodwar we were forced to equalize with marines or zealots with sunken colonies, which had no offensive potential what so ever.
On September 10 2012 01:33 Mondieu wrote: I have gone through the OP 2 times and I don't see him explaining what's the deeper reason behind the queen range buff.
I think it aws meant so TVZ isn't imbalanced because otherwise I dont really see a reason for it. In PvZ the queen range buff doesn't do much tbh.
I proposed that the deeper reason may be to better target and attack observers and overseers to make better use of banes and the queen bane combo.
because banes are made from lings, and you surplus an addition 25 mineras compared to a player producing roaches...
75/25 50/25
This allows you to both save energy of your queens for transfuse, and better keep queens pumping then a player who is going roaches...
It's more difficult to both pump the queen with roach and save energy on the queens, because when banes mutate from lings, you don't have to spend as much on spawn larvae.
Therefore, the bane/queen should be an adequate combo against the roach... don't you think?
On September 10 2012 01:12 AtlasMech wrote: But I'm mainly saying that the queen needs this ability so that the queen/ling relationship can make up a cooperative whole with each other...(lings being the strong offense weak defense, queen being the weak offense strong defense)
I realized that if the queen was drawing attention to it with its + 1 armor, that people would waste hits on queens and get eaten up alive by zerglings, which is way I figured that at least 6 lings in the vicinity would share life with the queen in a proper ratio and lose life as the queen does.
The current system leaves no real incentive to target the queen, and so the ling army is targeted first, dies pretty quick, and then queens are left only to sadly waste a bit of time and money as they transfuse each other until they die.
The whole point to this is to equalize zerg in their basic army(zergling) + queens with pure marines or pure zealots.... because in broodwar we were forced to equalize with marines or zealots with sunken colonies, which had no offensive potential what so ever.
So do you take some shrooms or acid before being able to post like this or does it just come naturally?
I'll be honest with you guys what I don't like about the game... I don't like how the queen ling isn't the equalized force against zealot or marine, but rather, this odd unit called "the roach" is something that you have to waste gas on to counter marine or zealot.
Remember in alpha or beta when queens had deep tunnel where queens could do a slow underground sort of teleport out to any hatchery? Well that would have made perfect sense for a real philosophy of offensive defense(instead of equalizing zealot/marine out with sunkens as in broodwar)... but they removed that from the game.
So instead of being able to queen/ling which could have fulfilled the role of the sunken colony, we now have the roach that we MUST get, and the roach is probably the reason why the deep tunnel was removed from the game...
Sometimes, I feel like the queen should have been renamed the "roach queen" and unlocked the roach instead of there being a roach warren. (Compare the cost and build time of queen and roach warren, virtually identical), so zerg would lose the roach warren, unlock roaches with "The roach queen" and then roaches would only be capable of being produced by the queens spawn larvae...(not the natural larvae of the hatchery)
Compare the roach to its counter part, the marauder for example. Terran has to make a tech lab to access the marauder, in other words, it sacrifices their production capabilities for a ground to ground unit.
Zerg, however, sacrifices NO production capabilities for their ground to ground unit, the roach.
Why isn't the queen seen in the same light as the tech lab in regard to roach production?
I usually aim for a ling infestor ultra lategame. Your 4th may be later than his, but not late by any means. Spines help you defend, and lings can work surprisingly well, even against high masters. And then que ultras and you're in excellent shape.
Can't vouch for this vs GMs, but then again, NesTea wouldn't be coming to me (or the open TL forum) for advice on how to fight roaches.
EPT
