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Patchzergs, Real or Imagniary? - Page 13

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Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
August 20 2012 10:10 GMT
#241
On August 20 2012 18:53 CaptainCrush wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 18:30 Denzil wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:27 maregemini wrote:
You have forgotten Jonnyrecco,a guy who was prepatch MASTER player,and now beats top level terrans,almost wins Mvp_Keen in a bo7,and tell me,is that NOT a patchzerg?


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/JonnyREcco

Have a read through that, on the basis of the guy stopped school and went full time into Starcraft I think it's safe to say that he probably put more time into it and thus got better at the game because he worked hard.
He's also been rated pretty highly in the UK scene for ages.


Recco was a joke at best before he beat naniwa. And what is the UK scene? I didnt realize that there was one beyond DeMuslim. He is the very definition of what the OP is talking about.

"I am ignorant so i don't care you post facts!"
justinpal
Profile Joined September 2010
United States3810 Posts
August 20 2012 10:15 GMT
#242
On August 20 2012 18:53 Yorbon wrote:
Anyone who considers this ridiculous term to be real: have you ever thought about the player? He can't possibly do anything right in this scenario. He loses and he's just bad. He wins and his wins come from a patch. So he would have lost if the patch wasn't there, or something...
1. You won't know if anyone would've lost without the patch
2. This is completely ignoring players getting better/worse or evolving metagame
3. These terms work extremely demotivating.

This is the same as (for example but not limited to):
I saw someone post: "I knew Hero didn't jump in skill, it was because of all (non) recent buffs protoss got" (after hero failed to get to ro 8 twice in a row). It's the same as this case: if hero loses, he is bad; if he wins, it's because of the patch.
Also the standard gom vs kespa player discussion is as bad as this. Gomtv players (i'll call them that, but this term is even rubbish) cannot win in wcs. If they win, it's logical, because they played the game for two years; but notice how good the kespa players were in terms of mechanics (omg, how strange...). If they lose, they are nothing more then old b-teamers.

I don't want to spark the discussion in elephant direction. I just want to say that this kind of attitude is very destructive and not dealable with from a players' point of view. He/she just tries his best to win.



Hate the game not the player. They are winning because they adapted quicker to the changes made by our masters, Blizzard. Whether this is because their style was too greedy before this or because they just figured it out will remain unknown to me. IF they remain in the scene for longer than this month than they are indeed not just patch Zergs.

However, when the players start to figure out where the meta-game is shifting and adapt themselves there are two possibilities:

1) The patch Zergs continue to win against Code S players and prove they are a force to be reckoned with: OR

2) They fade into the non-nonexistence of semi-Pro hell.

The third possibility is that Blizzard makes another ridiculous patch that causes more rifts in the meta-game.
Never make a hydralisk.
ejozl
Profile Joined October 2010
Denmark3561 Posts
August 20 2012 10:15 GMT
#243
How can you argue there's no such thing as a patch-zerg? Before there was less zergs at the top, now there's much more zergs at the top. People who're in the top now, but weren't before, are patch zergs.
However this does not dispute their skill as a player. I feel like many Zergs winrates started to top and they started going deeper into tournaments facing better players, thereby motivating the Zerg to play a TON.
When things balance out these Zergs will probably still be around, little less dominant, but due to their now strong experience they've gained the skill to stay.

Vortix is a player I've watched in Warcraft 3 for long time, he's soo strong.
But after his run at IEM people will probably rate him one of the best European players and much higher than his brother Lucifron.
This is just not the case, in reality their skill is very much the same.

Sortof has shown that he can go the distance, but IMO, should not handily defeat players like Grubby, Inori, Demuslim, as if he was the clear favourite.
There are many Zergs i'm happy for since all they needed was a pat on the back and they started to showcase skill, but i feel many of the not top end Zergs realistically shouldn't stand a chance vs the top korean terrans, which they do atm.
SC2 Archon needs "Terrible, terrible damage" as one of it's quotes.
sVnteen
Profile Joined January 2011
Germany2238 Posts
August 20 2012 10:19 GMT
#244
On August 20 2012 09:32 Wockets wrote:
The first few posts are horrible. You raise a good point.

Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 09:27 xPabt wrote:
Johnnyrecco should be in this too.

And this. Some may say that he's already been working his way up the ranks pre-patch but at the speed he's doing it in.. that's a bit ridiculous.

Edit: You should also try adding in some other zergs as a comparison - that way we can really see the "difference" that this patch makes.

so he beat naniwa 3-1 because of the queen range buff?


MY LIFE STARTS NOW ♥
TigerKarl
Profile Joined November 2010
1757 Posts
August 20 2012 10:21 GMT
#245
Just a term to be mean to each other. Leave such things for reddit
Tuthur
Profile Joined July 2010
France985 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 10:26:52
August 20 2012 10:26 GMT
#246
There is no "patch zergs". Only "patch terrans" that failed to adapt to the new metagame. They whine because they're less used to completely change their openings like their zerg counterparts often did in the past. Now they're starting to catch up but some people in the lower leagues who don't have the right mindset are still crying instead of actually trying to improve (avilosc2 for example, look at his reddit posts)
imre
Profile Blog Joined November 2011
France9263 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 10:36:18
August 20 2012 10:28 GMT
#247
When Z players will learn to micro and flank we'll consider them as good players (DRG/Stephano/Nestea in mid game...)
Seeing awful creep spread combined with 1a syndrom is horrible.
The biggest problem is that we currently have the biggest imbalanced mappol in ZvT.
Zest fanboy.
Ryps
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
Romania2740 Posts
August 20 2012 10:30 GMT
#248
You know what would be awesome in the OP ? a poll.
RandomAccount#106470
Profile Joined September 2010
Lithuania1506 Posts
August 20 2012 10:37 GMT
#249
--- Nuked ---
Kurumi
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Poland6130 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 10:47:18
August 20 2012 10:38 GMT
#250
I have been watching the SC2 scene from the very start. The five rax reaper silliness , 4gate, 1/1/1 , voidray rushes , proxy marauders versus P pre concussive shell nerf... I think people have forgotten the times where zergs were going hydra roach.. then infestor revolt happened. Zergs did not know how to play anything on Hive honestly. Ultras? Pff, a joke. Broodlords ? They are too slow and getting them means getting useless corruptors. Some people have changed the metagame forever. I wont talk about it because I dont remember every name and everyone deserves the credit for their work. Remember , immortal all in was possible for a looong time. No one just wanted to build that damn warp prism. People have always said it is too early to talk about balance overall. Why rush conclusions from this patch?
EDIT: Game changes. Some builds change the game forever. It is an evolution , breakthroughs are important. Patch just hit together with development for a new strategy. And yes , Queen range helped executing it!
I work alone. // Visit TL Mafia subforum!
pOnarreT
Profile Joined March 2012
155 Posts
August 20 2012 10:39 GMT
#251
lets do a poll! if patch zergs are real or not... or maybe no. why bother, we all know most terrans would vote yes
pOnarreT
Profile Joined March 2012
155 Posts
August 20 2012 10:44 GMT
#252
On August 20 2012 19:19 sVnteen wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 09:32 Wockets wrote:
The first few posts are horrible. You raise a good point.

On August 20 2012 09:27 xPabt wrote:
Johnnyrecco should be in this too.

And this. Some may say that he's already been working his way up the ranks pre-patch but at the speed he's doing it in.. that's a bit ridiculous.

Edit: You should also try adding in some other zergs as a comparison - that way we can really see the "difference" that this patch makes.

so he beat naniwa 3-1 because of the queen range buff?





Wow how'd you come up with that
Sethronu
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United Kingdom450 Posts
August 20 2012 10:52 GMT
#253
Patchzergs or not, I don't know how can anyone consider Vortix's play in IEM 'good' or 'fun' to watch. Pretty much every engagement, including his 'best broodlord pushes ever' was a straight up a-move the whole army deal, same with his 'great drop defense' and stuff. I don't really think that Z is so imba that any noob can win with it, or that TvZ is impossible blah blah blah, but there's no denying that the Z side of these games is much more forgiving, and usually very uninspiring to watch.
Denzil
Profile Joined August 2010
United Kingdom4193 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 11:00:28
August 20 2012 10:52 GMT
#254
On August 20 2012 19:02 Poopi wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 18:57 Superiorwolf wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:30 Denzil wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:27 maregemini wrote:
You have forgotten Jonnyrecco,a guy who was prepatch MASTER player,and now beats top level terrans,almost wins Mvp_Keen in a bo7,and tell me,is that NOT a patchzerg?


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/JonnyREcco

Have a read through that, on the basis of the guy stopped school and went full time into Starcraft I think it's safe to say that he probably put more time into it and thus got better at the game because he worked hard.
He's also been rated pretty highly in the UK scene for ages.

This. Patchzerg is a ridiculous term. SortOf's worst matchup is still ZvT, and ZvT is one of my worser matchups right now as well. What's the best explanation for "patchzergs" for doing well? Well I don't know about Slivko or Vortix or whatever, but I do know that JonnyREcco finished school -> started getting good results, SortOf finished school -> started getting good results, and it was my summer break -> got some okay results as well. Perhaps instead of downplaying people's hard work, time, and effort, you should be glad to see new faces in the scene and glad to see people's efforts paying off.

Do you really think that if a foreign MASTER terran went on to stop school because of summer or whatever, he would start BEATING code S zergs/protoss?
This excuse is valuable when players go from low GM to relevant "pro" player, not when masters players start beating code S players.
It's sad for the players such as VortiX, JRecco etc to be called patch zergs, but it's even more sad for the freaking korean terrans who lost to inferior players despite working harder and better for a long time.


On the basis that quite a few foreign terrans are actually pretty lazy and don't try to improve themselves and much rather make posts on balance I think no they wouldn't

who are the Code S players you're stating that he's beaten? If you're saying Naniwa you should know to take that with a pinch of salt because Naniwa is Code S but his play very rarely looks Code S he played bad against JRecco that some pros noted and deserved to lose

The 4-3 against Keen should be credit to all the hard work this guys put in, besides the UK players seem to be pretty decent at beating Code S guys

Bling generally beats a Code S Terran whenever he plays Demuslims beaten NesTea and it seems JReccos beaten Naniwa and almost beat Keen

I'll throw it in there as well, time spent doesn't always equal success Stephano used to do fuckall practice look who he was beating during that time. Also Korean Masters Terrans seem to be pretty good I'm sure many of them could beat Code S players there's literally a sea of god Korean Master Terrans
Anna: So Sen how will you prepare for your revenge v MC? Sen: With a smile.
Kinsal
Profile Joined August 2011
United States66 Posts
August 20 2012 10:54 GMT
#255
On August 20 2012 19:52 Sethronu wrote:
Patchzergs or not, I don't know how can anyone consider Vortix's play in IEM 'good' or 'fun' to watch. Pretty much every engagement, including his 'best broodlord pushes ever' was a straight up a-move the whole army deal, same with his 'great drop defense' and stuff. I don't really think that Z is so imba that any noob can win with it, or that TvZ is impossible blah blah blah, but there's no denying that the Z side of these games is much more forgiving, and usually very uninspiring to watch.


pretty much agree
Lylat
Profile Joined August 2009
France8575 Posts
August 20 2012 11:01 GMT
#256
I think the main problem is that people are angry toward those new players who managed to beat their favorites. Hence they will try to lower their performance calling them "patchzerg"... Which is sad imo because I'm pretty sure they work a lot and definitely deserve some recognition.
Assirra
Profile Joined August 2010
Belgium4169 Posts
August 20 2012 11:02 GMT
#257
On August 20 2012 19:44 pOnarreT wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 19:19 sVnteen wrote:
On August 20 2012 09:32 Wockets wrote:
The first few posts are horrible. You raise a good point.

On August 20 2012 09:27 xPabt wrote:
Johnnyrecco should be in this too.

And this. Some may say that he's already been working his way up the ranks pre-patch but at the speed he's doing it in.. that's a bit ridiculous.

Edit: You should also try adding in some other zergs as a comparison - that way we can really see the "difference" that this patch makes.

so he beat naniwa 3-1 because of the queen range buff?





Wow how'd you come up with that

Well if it is the patchzerg reason he won it clearly was because of the queen buff.
teddyoojo
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
Germany22369 Posts
August 20 2012 11:03 GMT
#258
On August 20 2012 20:01 Lylat wrote:
I think the main problem is that people are angry toward those new players who managed to beat their favorites. Hence they will try to lower their performance calling them "patchzerg"... Which is sad imo because I'm pretty sure they work a lot and definitely deserve some recognition.

id be so happy when there would be a patchterran t-t
but there is just no terran for 2 years outside of korea
Esports historian since 2000. Creator of 'The Universe' and 'The best scrambled Eggs 2013'. Host of 'Star Wars Marathon 2015'. Thinker of 'teddyoojo's Thoughts'. Earths and Moons leading CS:GO expert. Lord of the Rings.
Yaki
Profile Joined April 2011
France4234 Posts
August 20 2012 11:04 GMT
#259
On August 20 2012 19:52 Denzil wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 19:02 Poopi wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:57 Superiorwolf wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:30 Denzil wrote:
On August 20 2012 18:27 maregemini wrote:
You have forgotten Jonnyrecco,a guy who was prepatch MASTER player,and now beats top level terrans,almost wins Mvp_Keen in a bo7,and tell me,is that NOT a patchzerg?


http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/JonnyREcco

Have a read through that, on the basis of the guy stopped school and went full time into Starcraft I think it's safe to say that he probably put more time into it and thus got better at the game because he worked hard.
He's also been rated pretty highly in the UK scene for ages.

This. Patchzerg is a ridiculous term. SortOf's worst matchup is still ZvT, and ZvT is one of my worser matchups right now as well. What's the best explanation for "patchzergs" for doing well? Well I don't know about Slivko or Vortix or whatever, but I do know that JonnyREcco finished school -> started getting good results, SortOf finished school -> started getting good results, and it was my summer break -> got some okay results as well. Perhaps instead of downplaying people's hard work, time, and effort, you should be glad to see new faces in the scene and glad to see people's efforts paying off.

Do you really think that if a foreign MASTER terran went on to stop school because of summer or whatever, he would start BEATING code S zergs/protoss?
This excuse is valuable when players go from low GM to relevant "pro" player, not when masters players start beating code S players.
It's sad for the players such as VortiX, JRecco etc to be called patch zergs, but it's even more sad for the freaking korean terrans who lost to inferior players despite working harder and better for a long time.


On the basis that quite a few foreign terrans are actually pretty lazy and don't try to improve themselves and much rather make posts on balance I think no they wouldn't

who are the Code S players you're stating that he's beaten? If you're saying Naniwa you should know to take that with a pinch of salt because Naniwa is Code S but his play very rarely looks Code S he played bad against JRecco that some pros noted and deserved to lose

The 4-3 against Keen should be credit to all the hard work this guys put in, besides the UK players seem to be pretty decent at beating Code S guys

Bling generally beats a Code S Terran whenever he plays Demuslims beaten NesTea and it seems JReccos beaten Naniwa and almost beat Keen

I'll throw it in there as well, time spent doesn't always equal success Stephano used to do fuckall practice look who he was beating during that time. Also Korean Masters Terrans seem to be pretty good I'm sure many of them could beat Code S players there's literally a sea of god Korean Master Terrans

He took 2 maps off of ForGG and 3 off of Keen.
MC ■ MarineKing ■ LosirA ■ To someone who has lost after trying his best, no words from the winner can console him.
Godwrath
Profile Joined August 2012
Spain10167 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-08-20 11:06:29
August 20 2012 11:05 GMT
#260
On August 20 2012 20:03 teddyoojo wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2012 20:01 Lylat wrote:
I think the main problem is that people are angry toward those new players who managed to beat their favorites. Hence they will try to lower their performance calling them "patchzerg"... Which is sad imo because I'm pretty sure they work a lot and definitely deserve some recognition.

id be so happy when there would be a patchterran t-t
but there is just no terran for 2 years outside of korea


Didn't you know ? MVP and MKP are patchterrans too.

More news at 11.
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