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On August 20 2012 19:08 boxturtle wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 17:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
You might as well call Terrans who did well prior to the patch "pre-patch Terrans".
It's fucking stupid. People did call Morrow, bitbybit & co talentless when Terran was OP. Now they're calling any Zerg who started popping up as the result of a game breaking patch patchzerg.
Let's not forget,
+ Show Spoiler +
and the generally ridiculous levels of hate terran users received. Before winning the super tournament, even Polt was perceived as just another terran riding the strength of his race. Another example, protoss this time, was the state of the game right before the big fungal growth buff where protoss was perceived as an ez-mode race that could just turtle on 3 base and then 1a into the zerg and collect a win. Based on perceptions of balance the community to some extent delegitimizes the accomplishments of new players until they are able to prove themselves over time.
People frequently say bad things about players in every live report thread or stream chat and god help everyone if a fan-favorite loses in a non-mirror -- 100% there will be balance whine. 'Patchzerg' may be a new term but there is actually nothing new here. The white knighting about how offensive 'patchzerg' is only encourages people to use the term and seems hypocritical given the historical amount of whine against terran/protoss and the lack of white knighting against balance whine in general.
Furthermore, it is easy to see that if one race is buffed and the other races stay the same, then the buffed race should perform better. Currently, the last patch contained a buff for zerg so zergs are performing better e.g. 'patchzerg.' I'm sure that in the future, we'll see 'patchterrans' and 'patchtoss' now that the term is spreading (thanks in part to this thread).
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On August 20 2012 19:26 Tuthur wrote:
There is no "patch zergs". Only "patch terrans" that failed to adapt to the new metagame. They whine because they're less used to completely change their openings like their zerg counterparts often did in the past. Now they're starting to catch up but some people in the lower leagues who don't have the right mindset are still crying instead of actually trying to improve (avilosc2 for example, look at his reddit posts)
please deinstall sc2
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 20 2012 19:38 Kurumi wrote:
I have been watching the SC2 scene from the very start. The five rax reaper silliness , 4gate, 1/1/1 , voidray rushes , proxy marauders versus P pre concussive shell nerf... I think people have forgotten the times where zergs were going hydra roach.. then infestor revolt happened. Zergs did not know how to play anything on Hive honestly. Ultras? Pff, a joke. Broodlords ? They are too slow and getting them means getting useless corruptors. Some people have changed the metagame forever. I wont talk about it because I dont remember every name and everyone deserves the credit for their work. Remember , immortal all in was possible for a looong time. No one just wanted to build that damn warp prism. People have always said it is too early to talk about balance overall. Why rush conclusions from this patch?
The patches happended. Zergs didn't revolt anything. The patches changed metagame, not zergs. All zergs did was created few new builds which were encouraged by the patches. Nerfs for 2 rax and 4 gate made zergs early greedy play a "standard". Infestor buff allowed zergs to go infestor heavy style and fast hive as well as new Infestor/Ling style. Ultra production time decrease gave zergs strong Ultra/Ling/Infestor timings and made them less vulrnable. Queen change made it possible for zergs to get increadibly fast third in ZvT which results in 13 minutes hive. New maps allowed super turtle play with broodlord/infestor.
Zergs who are saying that they inovated this metagame is making me giggle. I have seen a lot of metagame changes in TvP (from both sides, for example even the double forge build was popular before the upgrades cost change), TvZ and PvZ and most of them happened not after patches. Sadly, I can't say the same about zerg. Everything was forced by patches. And the question is, did they need those patches ? Maybe it was the players factor in the first play, not a balance flaw.
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On August 20 2012 19:26 Tuthur wrote:
There is no "patch zergs". Only "patch terrans" that failed to adapt to the new metagame. They whine because they're less used to completely change their openings like their zerg counterparts often did in the past. Now they're starting to catch up but some people in the lower leagues who don't have the right mindset are still crying instead of actually trying to improve (avilosc2 for example, look at his reddit posts)
Funniest guy out right here. Seriously, this guy is the most hilarious person I have ever met. I can't tell if he is a troll or just stupid.
When in the past did zergs significantly alter their playstyles? In all the months where Terran enjoyed dominance over zerg, zergs just kept doing the same thing over, and over, and over with only minor changes. Terran is the only race that has ever had to significantly adjust playstyle to the metagame again and again and again.
Zerg's QQing that terrans can bio pressure early so that they can't spam hatcheries and drones - instead of adjusting to the meta by, I don't know, opening pool first or getting roaches before lair tech (I know so hard to do), they moan about it until bunker build time gets nerfed, barracks build time gets nerfed, stim reseach time gets nerfed. Again terran has to adjust to the meta and be more greedy.
Infestor buffs: Terran adjust playstyle to include ghosts. Zergs start QQing 'OMG GHOST SO OP', but instead of taking your own advice and adapt to the meta, you moan until ghosts get nerfed again and again and again. Once more, it's terran who has to adapt by finding new ways to counter ultras, blords and infestors.
Unwarranted Queen buffs: again terran is the one who has to adapt to the meta.
When will the time come where terran gets buffed, instead of being told to 'adapt to the meta' when the other two races never have to adapt their playstyles as a result of nerfs/buffs?
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On August 20 2012 19:38 Kurumi wrote:
I have been watching the SC2 scene from the very start. The five rax reaper silliness , 4gate, 1/1/1 , voidray rushes , proxy marauders versus P pre concussive shell nerf... I think people have forgotten the times where zergs were going hydra roach.. then infestor revolt happened. Zergs did not know how to play anything on Hive honestly. Ultras? Pff, a joke. Broodlords ? They are too slow and getting them means getting useless corruptors. Some people have changed the metagame forever. I wont talk about it because I dont remember every name and everyone deserves the credit for their work. Remember , immortal all in was possible for a looong time. No one just wanted to build that damn warp prism. People have always said it is too early to talk about balance overall. Why rush conclusions from this patch?
EDIT: Game changes. Some builds change the game forever. It is an evolution , breakthroughs are important. Patch just hit together with development for a new strategy. And yes , Queen range helped executing it!
By 'infestor revolt' you must mean the 'patch 1.3.0 fungal growth buff.'
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On August 20 2012 20:01 Lylat wrote:
I think the main problem is that people are angry toward those new players who managed to beat their favorites. Hence they will try to lower their performance calling them "patchzerg"... Which is sad imo because I'm pretty sure they work a lot and definitely deserve some recognition.
The problem isn't that they beat the favourites, the problem is HOW it happens. Most people (myself included) think that it shouldn't be possible for a Zerg to go a base down to T in the early game, throw away 500 supply worth of stuff by a-moving repeatedly into tank lines, then a-move some more with broodlords and win. Yes, there are strategies that beat that kind of play, as MVP has shown in the same tournament, but it's still very frustrating to watch regardless whether it's because T isn't very good at dealing with that style or the said style is just too 'noob friendly' or too strong in general.
If you watch the TvZ games from IEM, or Keen vs JRecco series from last TSL matches, sure you can tell the Terrans make some mistakes and some questionnable decisions, but at the same time, the Zerg gets away with much bigger screw ups and comes out on top. Maybe that's just me, but there wasn't a single moment in SN vs Vortix or Keen vs Jrecco games where I'd think, "wow, Vortix/Recco is really giving SN/Keen a run for his money", it always feels like "welp, broodlords are pretty good". There wasn't anything spectacular or distinguishing about their play, it was more like watching countless Terrans win TvP a year ago. Sure, some T players had a flair and class of their own where you could really say, 'wow this guy is pretty good', but most of the time it was a grey faceless mass of boring and bland play that you just wanted to switch off after seeing 1 game. At least Terrans had to actually micro their units, though.
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Personally I've always felt the balance vs skill is kind of like this:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vAtzs.png)
Edit: This pic isn't really suppose to show how the races are balanced against each other, but rather how a middle of the road terran does compared to a top terran, how a middle of the road zerg does compared to a top zerg and how a middle of the road toss does compared to a top toss. Just didn't wanna show 3 pics
Why that is? Because both protoss and terran need to find creative ways to hurt zerg before t3, else against a player that defends decently enough, they just loose, not really because of skill, but because both races have a really hard time dealing with t3.
Basically a BL army controlled by DRG with infestors underneath are pretty much exactly as good as if the army was controlled by Vortix. Compare that to stalkers/army controlled by MC vs it being controlled by Bling. And finally compare rines controlled by MKP to them being controlled by Sjow. The difference is: the BLs would end up relatively similarly controlled, stalkers would be a lot better controlled and rines are like 3x times better in the hands of MKP.
Basically all the races need to look like terran(pref) or toss, and no race should ever look like zerg.
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On August 20 2012 20:17 Zarahtra wrote:Personally I've always felt the balance vs skill is kind of like this: Why that is? Because both protoss and terran need to find creative ways to hurt zerg before t3, else against a player that defends decently enough, they just loose, not really because of skill, but because both races have a really hard time dealing with t3. Basically a BL army controlled by DRG with infestors underneath are pretty much exactly as good as if the army was controlled by Vortix. Compare that to stalkers/army controlled by MC vs it being controlled by Bling. And finally compare rines controlled by MKP to them being controlled by Sjow. The difference is: the BLs would end up relatively similarly controlled, stalkers would be a lot better controlled and rines are like 3x times better in the hands of MKP. Basically all the races need to look like terran(pref) or toss, and no race should ever look like zerg. lol, you've got to be kidding.
I agree with your point though, except for last sentence, that's too much of an generalization of zerg.
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I think the infestor buff had much more of an impact on zergs than this one.
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On August 20 2012 20:21 Yorbon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:17 Zarahtra wrote:Personally I've always felt the balance vs skill is kind of like this: Why that is? Because both protoss and terran need to find creative ways to hurt zerg before t3, else against a player that defends decently enough, they just loose, not really because of skill, but because both races have a really hard time dealing with t3. Basically a BL army controlled by DRG with infestors underneath are pretty much exactly as good as if the army was controlled by Vortix. Compare that to stalkers/army controlled by MC vs it being controlled by Bling. And finally compare rines controlled by MKP to them being controlled by Sjow. The difference is: the BLs would end up relatively similarly controlled, stalkers would be a lot better controlled and rines are like 3x times better in the hands of MKP. Basically all the races need to look like terran(pref) or toss, and no race should ever look like zerg. lol, you've got to be kidding. I agree with your point though, except for last sentence, that's too much of an generalization of zerg.
Pretty much exactly might be a poor choice of words, but the difference isn't really that great, while the difference in skill is huuuuuuuge.
Edit: last sentence is more about how they look on my pic. The top zergs just don't get enough fancy micro to distinguish themselves from their mid tier counterparts.
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zerg has at any stage of the game a unit wich totally controls the match.
t1 queen holds all ins and gains you almost full map control without building units
t2 infestor + tons of creep can hold every army for ages till t3 is out
t3 broodlord/ultra gg
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On August 20 2012 20:27 kubiks wrote:Well you're all late to the party, patchzerg are around for such a long time. Nestea ? an other patchzerg. You don't trust me ? Just look at this blog thta forsaw a patchzerg winning GSL season 2... : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=163744
Wasn't that the patch were ultralisks just melted things with the bugged splash damage + nerfed stim time/reapers + roach range etc ? People got a point there, because it was almost impossible to kill the zerg before lategame, and ultralisk just raped EVERYTHING with the bugged splash damage, so what's your point ?
Edit - And yeah, nestea proved later he was awesome. As MVP, MKP, and many others. But because they had strong mechanichs and you never saw so many flaws on their engagements. Terran players like Morrow weren't actually top, and really was a patchterran at prolvl. Same as Vortix. You see the guy multitask and you feel really bad.
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On August 20 2012 20:24 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:21 Yorbon wrote:On August 20 2012 20:17 Zarahtra wrote:Personally I've always felt the balance vs skill is kind of like this: Why that is? Because both protoss and terran need to find creative ways to hurt zerg before t3, else against a player that defends decently enough, they just loose, not really because of skill, but because both races have a really hard time dealing with t3. Basically a BL army controlled by DRG with infestors underneath are pretty much exactly as good as if the army was controlled by Vortix. Compare that to stalkers/army controlled by MC vs it being controlled by Bling. And finally compare rines controlled by MKP to them being controlled by Sjow. The difference is: the BLs would end up relatively similarly controlled, stalkers would be a lot better controlled and rines are like 3x times better in the hands of MKP. Basically all the races need to look like terran(pref) or toss, and no race should ever look like zerg. lol, you've got to be kidding. I agree with your point though, except for last sentence, that's too much of an generalization of zerg. Pretty much exactly might be a poor choice of words, but the difference isn't really that great, while the difference in skill is huuuuuuuge. Edit: last sentence is more about how they look on my pic. The top zergs just don't get enough fancy micro to distinguish themselves from their mid tier counterparts. Well, i agree compared to certain terran and protoss units.
another thing is late game army control does not necessarily relate to overall skill. Nestea for example, regularly messes up his late game army control, while being very good in other aspects of the game (I leave to you whether he is really good or not)
Edit on last sentence: i get what you mean, i just think that small tweaks can take care of that, personally. 
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One thing people always seem to forget, is the fact that in the foreign scene, there are many many more zerg-protoss players in general, than terran players (on all skill levels). So why is this important?
This is important because, 6 months back, there were a ton of really good, hard working zerg players that couldn't break out, because of the state of the zerg matchups back then. Today zerg matchups have clear paths / build orders / strategies, that "generally" work. So hard working people, that work on their mechanics, macro, are able to shine much more than 6 months back.
So the fact that so many zerg players seem to "break" out, at the same time after a patch, shouldn't make people think that Zerg's are actually doing so great. Yeah sure... they are doing great, but my point is if you have a tournament with 10/16 zerg players and top 4 is all zerg's, then that doesn't mean anything. I'm not trying to say the game is balanced, but trust me Terrans are actually doing kinda ok if you think how many terrans are actually out there.
Even in IEM, look at how many foreigner Terrans were there... Most of them were Koreans. So even if one day the game becomes 100% balanced (somehow, lol), then we'll still see a lot more zerg players shine in the foreign scene.
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On August 20 2012 20:27 kubiks wrote:Well you're all late to the party, patchzerg are around for such a long time. Nestea ? an other patchzerg. You don't trust me ? Just look at this blog thta forsaw a patchzerg winning GSL season 2... : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=163744
This has to be sarcasm, right?
RIGHT?
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On August 20 2012 20:28 WeRRa wrote:
zerg has at any stage of the game a unit wich totally controls the match.
t1 queen holds all ins and gains you almost full map control without building units
t2 infestor + tons of creep can hold every army for ages till t3 is out
t3 broodlord/ultra gg
What a terrible post, clearly shows your lack of understanding of the game please edit it and make better points.
On August 20 2012 20:27 kubiks wrote:Well you're all late to the party, patchzerg are around for such a long time. Nestea ? an other patchzerg. You don't trust me ? Just look at this blog thta forsaw a patchzerg winning GSL season 2... : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=163744
Wow October 2010? Didn't know Avilo was balance whining that far back
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nope you simply dont address the fact that the players are getting better. Im no where near the pros in terms of skill but my understanding of what builds i should be doing on each map and why against certain matchups has developed and im winning more. I couldnt beat toss for the life of me before or after the main patches but i went a month concentrating on the ZvP-MU, i even bought coaching which now i feel is a bit of a waste of money as you can google all of the advice (although it is nice to have the session and ask the questions i get modded for on this site and be told i have no opinion cos im sub masters) or even watch a commentating stream
no. I believe as the hrs go by with these guys they address the problem over time, sure buffs help but im sure they drill their tournie builds over and over and over and get rid of any leaks, ill go as far as to say, the pro doesnt care about the scouting info up to a point, they have oiled a build against a player they've studied quite a bit. Its only the same as me in a field im good at, when i did martial arts, the opp has certain tells before he does something, it only relates the same in sc as the builds from the pros are now optimal (or are they1!!!! love sc for this)
nope patch has not created patchzergs cos when the other buffs cvome out to flip the game again we can say "patch*" and they were no good before. I sense a dunning/Kruger effect here. please recognise the skill and improvement of others
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On August 20 2012 20:27 kubiks wrote:Well you're all late to the party, patchzerg are around for such a long time. Nestea ? an other patchzerg. You don't trust me ? Just look at this blog thta forsaw a patchzerg winning GSL season 2... : http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=163744
NesTea has been around the top for more than 2 years now, yeah surely he must be a patchzerg ....
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EPT![[image loading]](http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_yI3p8aRQnHo/TLVsXQJDdsI/AAAAAAAAHsk/o8i-ubu-Lio/s1600/30923.jpg)
