EPTPatchzergs, Real or Imagniary? - Page 15
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Dumbtruck
56 Posts
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kubiks
France1328 Posts
Well for me the second zerg patch is DRG. Notice how he started to own everyone after the infestator patch ? | ||
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Yaki
France4234 Posts
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{ToT}ColmA
Japan3260 Posts
On August 20 2012 09:20 grush57 wrote: Come on man u come up with this new fancy term and theory and then u disprove it in the same post. User was temp banned for this post. the phrase has been heavily used in the wc3 community, yea the wc3 community was/is retarded | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On August 20 2012 20:32 Denzil wrote: This post really cracked me up.What a terrible post, clearly shows your lack of understanding of the game please edit it and make better points. Wow October 2010? Didn't know Avilo was balance whining that far back On October 26 2010 04:59 imPERSONater wrote: I bet Sen wishes he knew this before playing Loner. I don't see how the posts "You are playing your race wrong" aren't applicable anymore (as a similar sentiment was told to zergs when they complained). Terrans have been heavily affected by the new patches, however, there aren't many harassment options in the zerg early game arsenal that I have noticed besides zerglings so maybe the fast expand is the correct answer for Terrans as well. Granted I am not nearly at the level of the pros (and yourself OP), but fruitdealer and IdrA win most games deflecting an early terran attack and then using their early expo to pull ahead. Why can't terrans employ a similar strategy? Just a week and and half does seem a bit early to be making these overarching statements as the poster above me stated. On August 20 2012 20:39 figq wrote: AgreedI kindly suggest people who (improperly) overuse this term in other threads, particularly LRs, to get mod warnings. | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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WeRRa
378 Posts
[QUOTE]On August 20 2012 20:28 WeRRa wrote: zerg has at any stage of the game a unit wich totally controls the match. t1 queen holds all ins and gains you almost full map control without building units t2 infestor + tons of creep can hold every army for ages till t3 is out t3 broodlord/ultra gg[/QUOTE] What a terrible post, clearly shows your lack of understanding of the game please edit it and make better points. ever saw a recent zvt? watch some and come back when you know more. zzzzz | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On August 20 2012 20:13 wTeffecT wrote: When in the past did zergs significantly alter their playstyles? All the time. You're welcome!  | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
On August 20 2012 20:37 Yaki wrote: You know there is something wrong with the matchup when Nerchio says that he prefers to play Mvp over VortiX Not really I think VortiX plays an obnoxious style of ZvZ (or so I've heard) that the Foreign King of ZvZ can't figure out ever saw a recent zvt? watch some and come back when you know more. zzzzz I can't tell if you actually believe what you're typing or you're trying to lure me into insulting you I hope for the sake of the TL forums it's the latter | ||
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DougJDempsey
747 Posts
On August 20 2012 20:36 Yaki wrote: NesTea has been around the top for more than 2 years now, yeah surely he must be a patchzerg .... ... dear god in heaven, someone here doesnt understand obvious sarcasm.... /facepalm | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
On August 20 2012 20:14 Sethronu wrote: The problem isn't that they beat the favourites, the problem is HOW it happens. Most people (myself included) think that it shouldn't be possible for a Zerg to go a base down to T in the early game, throw away 500 supply worth of stuff by a-moving repeatedly into tank lines, then a-move some more with broodlords and win. Yes, there are strategies that beat that kind of play, as MVP has shown in the same tournament, but it's still very frustrating to watch regardless whether it's because T isn't very good at dealing with that style or the said style is just too 'noob friendly' or too strong in general. If you watch the TvZ games from IEM, or Keen vs JRecco series from last TSL matches, sure you can tell the Terrans make some mistakes and some questionnable decisions, but at the same time, the Zerg gets away with much bigger screw ups and comes out on top. Maybe that's just me, but there wasn't a single moment in SN vs Vortix or Keen vs Jrecco games where I'd think, "wow, Vortix/Recco is really giving SN/Keen a run for his money", it always feels like "welp, broodlords are pretty good". There wasn't anything spectacular or distinguishing about their play, it was more like watching countless Terrans win TvP a year ago. Sure, some T players had a flair and class of their own where you could really say, 'wow this guy is pretty good', but most of the time it was a grey faceless mass of boring and bland play that you just wanted to switch off after seeing 1 game. At least Terrans had to actually micro their units, though. This post neatly encapsulates my thoughts on the matchup. I'll take it way back here, to when Idra was one of the few foreign Zergs who would compete with foreign Terrans. You always got the sense the match was on a knife-edge, it was also one of the few times I've actively rooted for a Zerg player. With that muta/ling/bling style Zerg were much more delicate and you could actually see the Zergs working just as hard as their opponents. Likewise when Stephano was first emerging as a force, those were exciting epic games with lots of identifiable good play, for example his drop defence is always pretty damn good. Now however, it really does appear most competent Zergs can compete with top Terrans when they're not even playing optimally, as long as they get to their strong lategame compositions. I've seen people not spreading creep well, pulling entire armies back to defend drops and they're still rolling. Zerg's lategame should be good, I don't think people dispute this, but it should be a titanic effort to get there unscathed when playing against the best Terran and Protoss players in the world, and I really don't see that as being the case anymore. It's not for me an issue of patchzergs existing, although that's an interesting avenue of discussion. It's how Zerg standard play has developed, in conjunction (for me anyway) with more favourable map-pools, to become terrible to watch. The whole patchzerg issue is hard to accept when Zergs who've shown good results in a much less favourable metagame aren't crushing face nowadays. I know Idra for one has better mechanics than some of the players mentioned in this thread, but he equally is pretty bad at exploiting infestors and using hivetech armies. Ret donates his hive armies all the time, especially to Protoss Perhaps we're just seeing players who have specific skillsets/mentalities getting results because the current Zerg style dovetails with their strengths, and the corresponding boost in results will not be applicable to those who are more accustomed to playing in other ways? | ||
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ODKStevez
Ireland1225 Posts
On August 20 2012 09:20 grush57 wrote: Come on man u come up with this new fancy term and theory and then u disprove it in the same post. User was temp banned for this post. It's called discussion. But I personally don't agree with it. Such a small change shouldn't cause shouldn't cause such a big impact. I think we need to give it more time before calling "imbalance". Terrans still need time to figure out new timings. | ||
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Phays
Sweden162 Posts
My opinion on this matter, yes there are patchzergs but if they are bad the system will sort them out and if they are good, they are here to stay. | ||
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Kotreb
Croatia1392 Posts
On August 20 2012 09:29 MasterOfPuppets wrote: People who complain about "patchzergs" are people who have absolutely no idea with regards to who is good in the foreign scene beyond the top 10. "OMG I don't know this guy therefore he's a noob; this noob just beat a player who i know is good, the game must be broken argh" It's simple. If you want to have an educated opinion on who is good at the moment, you need to follow a lot of starcraft, including the much overlooked daily/weekly cups and smaller invitationals. If you can't be bothered to do that then that's fine, I respect your choice but don't talk about something that you are intentionally uninformed about, it just makes you look ignorant and foolish. Thank you OP for putting the time and effort into this thread, I agree completely with you. On a semi-related note, this sort of reminds me in a way of Stephano back when he made his breakout, people thought he was a flash in the pan and not a genuinely talented player even though he's had absolute stomps (over top european terrans at the time) dating all the way back to april / may 2011 if I recall correctly. I'm pretty excited with regards to what the future holds for these players, as well as some others like Ziktomini, JohnnyREcco, Scarlett etc. Always good to have more talent. ^^ This. Like said, it is possible to be very good and just have a breakthrough finally (may or may not be aided by patch). It's not like they came out of diamond league and then conquered SC scene. They worked for that. | ||
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rast
Poland44 Posts
On August 20 2012 20:13 wTeffecT wrote: Funniest guy out right here. Seriously, this guy is the most hilarious person I have ever met. I can't tell if he is a troll or just stupid. When in the past did zergs significantly alter their playstyles? In all the months where Terran enjoyed dominance over zerg, zergs just kept doing the same thing over, and over, and over with only minor changes. Terran is the only race that has ever had to significantly adjust playstyle to the metagame again and again and again. Zerg's QQing that terrans can bio pressure early so that they can't spam hatcheries and drones - instead of adjusting to the meta by, I don't know, opening pool first or getting roaches before lair tech (I know so hard to do), they moan about it until bunker build time gets nerfed, barracks build time gets nerfed, stim reseach time gets nerfed. Again terran has to adjust to the meta and be more greedy. Infestor buffs: Terran adjust playstyle to include ghosts. Zergs start QQing 'OMG GHOST SO OP', but instead of taking your own advice and adapt to the meta, you moan until ghosts get nerfed again and again and again. Once more, it's terran who has to adapt by finding new ways to counter ultras, blords and infestors. Unwarranted Queen buffs: again terran is the one who has to adapt to the meta. When will the time come where terran gets buffed, instead of being told to 'adapt to the meta' when the other two races never have to adapt their playstyles as a result of nerfs/buffs? This is a example post from someone that does not understand how zerg race works. Spam hatcheries and drones? You HAVE to be +1 base agains terran as zerge, otherwise your are BEHIND, mathematically. Thats well established fact, and zerg does not do fast 3-hatch because they are allowed to, but because they have to, while terran is building his +2 additional CC safely behinds his invicible wall in early stages of the game. How is it exploiting game mechanism? Zerg had no viable early defense agains cheeses, before patch, and have to spend larva(drones) in case they are presured, thus, hurting their economy. How is terran hurted by making few marines and presuring with them, putting bunkers, while pumping out scv constantly? Terran is the race that has most build diversity out there. How can zerg adopt to the meta if they have no options because of weak unit design early game? I hope hots would give use more options. On August 20 2012 20:17 Zarahtra wrote: Personally I've always felt the balance vs skill is kind of like this: [image loading] Edit: This pic isn't really suppose to show how the races are balanced against each other, but rather how a middle of the road terran does compared to a top terran, how a middle of the road zerg does compared to a top zerg and how a middle of the road toss does compared to a top toss. Just didn't wanna show 3 pics Why that is? Because both protoss and terran need to find creative ways to hurt zerg before t3, else against a player that defends decently enough, they just loose, not really because of skill, but because both races have a really hard time dealing with t3. Basically a BL army controlled by DRG with infestors underneath are pretty much exactly as good as if the army was controlled by Vortix. Compare that to stalkers/army controlled by MC vs it being controlled by Bling. And finally compare rines controlled by MKP to them being controlled by Sjow. The difference is: the BLs would end up relatively similarly controlled, stalkers would be a lot better controlled and rines are like 3x times better in the hands of MKP. Basically all the races need to look like terran(pref) or toss, and no race should ever look like zerg. Are you even aware what units does zerg have, because it seems that you have no clue. How is zerg suppose to micro meele units agains a ranget ones? Have you ever seen a zelot microed agains marines? No, because ITS NOT POSSIBLE. How are you supposed to micro like a slowest unit in the game (BL)? Do terrans micro their thors? No - because you cannot micro such slow unit... You compare one of the fastest unit in the game (stimmed marines), and one of the most mobile unit - blink stalkers, to some slow glass cannon type of unit - BL. Only units that zergs can shine with micro are zerglings and roaches, and only like in ZvZ matchup, because you can only micro agains similary fast unit with similar range, and in other MU terran and prottos ussualy have upper hand here. Its just the unit design that was delivered for zerg. Zerg is a swarm, they are suppose to swarm their enemy, no micro them to death. I dont judge wheather its good/bad design, its just how it has been thought of by Blizzard. Zergs are suppose to flak and runby armies. Compare this apects of zerg players, not BL control lol. And last poit -hos is it possible, that such A-moving race, I mean zerg, has comparable are often higher APM than their adversary? Are they just spamming a-move like 300 times a minute? | ||
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L3g3nd_
New Zealand10461 Posts
On August 20 2012 21:09 ODKStevez wrote: It's called discussion. But I personally don't agree with it. Such a small change shouldn't cause shouldn't cause such a big impact. I think we need to give it more time before calling "imbalance". Terrans still need time to figure out new timings. if this is a small change, what the hell do you consider as a big change? the 2 changes COMPLETELY changed the match up. Whether its because of balance, or terrans not adapting fast enough, zergs are doing the best they have ever done atm, these were huge changes. | ||
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nimbim
Germany983 Posts
The discussion in OP completely disregards the fact that T and P had to adjust their strategies to the new balance, so naturally they lost a ton of extra games at first. Also, as pointed out a couple of times, the sample size is way too small. Watch MVP vs Nerchio and maybe next we will see threads about "[D?]seeker missile op" and if there was a next patch, people would find something else that makes their race underpowered. If MVP and Taeja can stomp Zergs, other Terrans will (eventually) catch up. | ||
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TyrionSC2
United States411 Posts
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gakkgakk
Norway902 Posts
On August 20 2012 21:12 rast wrote: This is a example post from someone that does not understand how zerg race works. Spam hatcheries and drones? You HAVE to be +1 base agains terran as zerge, otherwise your are BEHIND, mathematically. Thats well established fact, and zerg does not do fast 3-hatch because they are allowed to, but because they have to. Yeah this is really not true. Zerg dont HAVE to be +1 base against terran. Equal bases is very much fine for zerg. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23768 Posts
On August 20 2012 21:24 nimbim wrote: This thread is just an excuse for every player who prefers to blame losses on external circumstances (i.e. "blizz screwed up balance") to vent their super biased opinion. The discussion in OP completely disregards the fact that T and P had to adjust their strategies to the new balance, so naturally they lost a ton of extra games at first. Also, as pointed out a couple of times, the sample size is way too small. Watch MVP vs Nerchio and maybe next we will see threads about "[D?]seeker missile op" and if there was a next patch, people would find something else that makes their race underpowered. If MVP and Taeja can stomp Zergs, other Terrans will (eventually) catch up. The entire reason people are annoyed is because this isn't a consequence of Zergs discovering new things, Blizzard are holding their hands and giving them the tools to defend what the other two races have been doing. The knock-on effects are pretty big too, in terms of interesting pressures and harassment. I play Protoss, and I used to like to do zealot/zealot/stalker pressures off one gate against Zerg, but it just doesn't really work anymore because Queens hold off those kind of small forces pretty easily. So instead of doing non-committal pressure harassment to force units, I found that I had to rely on 2 base timings much more given how good a catch-all defence Queens can be. Just makes for a more boring and less varied game | ||
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