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I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
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On August 20 2012 21:54 avc wrote:
It's a stupid term created by stupid people.
I completly agree with this and thats just the plain answer to this thread.
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Zerg is really strong at the moment in my opinion!
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This game become balanced purely after legacy of void this is only path to pure balance u must count with it when u play it at this time train + little patch help can make result ,after legacy it will be only skill , experience and train,play vs players with it.... players who will play during all new patch and hots+lotv will be strongest after and game become more less random .....
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I didn't really give any thought to the whole "patchzerg" craze, but Supernova vs Vortix on Antiga was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.
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People are just too focused on the term "patchzerg" than the real problem. While i agree the term per se is kinda stupid and offensive, because they're players who puts effort and passion, maybe more than others (who really knows), the "patchzerg" drama mislead the discussion. Simply, with a zerg lategame comp, everyone can put in serious troubles a pro player ten times better than you in all the others aspect in the game. More blizzard help zerg players to reach that comp easy and safe, more the overall skillcap of the zerg race simply degrees in a hilarious way.
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On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
The problem with the whole "TvZ is terribly imbalanced" is that at the highest level - in Korea - there is no reason from results that we've seen (save a short period immediately following the patch) to believe that the match-up is imbalanced.
MVP lost to monchi and naama at homestory-cup, to ret and idra pre-patch and to naniwa at mlg. You're making things up to support your conclusion.
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On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg
Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds
What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier.
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Northern Ireland24443 Posts
On August 20 2012 22:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 21:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 20 2012 21:51 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 20 2012 21:24 nimbim wrote:
This thread is just an excuse for every player who prefers to blame losses on external circumstances (i.e. "blizz screwed up balance") to vent their super biased opinion.
The discussion in OP completely disregards the fact that T and P had to adjust their strategies to the new balance, so naturally they lost a ton of extra games at first. Also, as pointed out a couple of times, the sample size is way too small.
Watch MVP vs Nerchio and maybe next we will see threads about "[D?]seeker missile op" and if there was a next patch, people would find something else that makes their race underpowered. If MVP and Taeja can stomp Zergs, other Terrans will (eventually) catch up. The entire reason people are annoyed is because this isn't a consequence of Zergs discovering new things, Blizzard are holding their hands and giving them the tools to defend what the other two races have been doing. The knock-on effects are pretty big too, in terms of interesting pressures and harassment. I play Protoss, and I used to like to do zealot/zealot/stalker pressures off one gate against Zerg, but it just doesn't really work anymore because Queens hold off those kind of small forces pretty easily. So instead of doing non-committal pressure harassment to force units, I found that I had to rely on 2 base timings much more given how good a catch-all defence Queens can be. Just makes for a more boring and less varied game What the fuck man? Protoss has gotten more buffs in the past year than zerg. Blizzard patches those things, because they don't work out the way they think they should. But yeah, please go and figure out how to play 5range immortal allin and do 40HP warp prism harass. Dual forges builds existed before the upgrade buff, I don't really get why the buff was put in there. From my past posts I actually disagreed with the idea to buff the immortal to hold 1/1/1s, it was tough to hold back in the day but that was as much a result of the map pool at that time than it was a consequence of the build itself. The warp prism buff was to encourage a less deathball-centric style, and to an extent it did this. However for me it's only really HerO's PvZ that consistently does this, as timing attacks and deathballs are still just as viable. Bit of a shame as I love to watch HerO's multitasking at work what's your point? Those patches happened regardless, whether you think they were needed or not. I could say the same thing about the queen range. It was not needed, but it happened. If they don't want to remove it, then they should try to fix other parts of the one MU that got really affected too much by it. Hey wait, that's what they are doing!
Protoss received buffs to augment existing builds, or deal with a specific early/midgame push. However you don't see Protoss players claiming that their good play is a reason that the 1/1/1 push died, they'll accept that the patch to immortal range was the largest contributory factor.
We whined like fuck about the 1/1/1, so I think it'd be hypocritical of us to castigate Zergs or Terrans for asking for changes, however most of the good Protoss posters around at least acknowledge the effect patches had.
Zergs seem to on the whole claim it's righting some karmic imbalance that their race is ridiculous at the minute in ZvT
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On August 20 2012 21:57 Adonminus wrote:
I know that Vortix, SortOf and Nerchio were all good players. I usually check the grandmaster league from time to time and there were many times I saw either Nerchion or Vortix in rank 1. SortOf is also quite good, I believe he was gm since it first came out.
However, it amazes me that most of the successful foreign players are zerg. It really bothers me, why protoss players aren't that good? Imbalance or simply not talented enough? I would really want to know.
Mana winning DH, Naniwa doing great in GSL, Thorzain winning the other DH? Only zergs posting good results?
Dont be so "narrow-sighted", any maybe you would spot other decent players  .
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On August 20 2012 22:22 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:09 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 21:58 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 20 2012 21:51 Big J wrote:On August 20 2012 21:30 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 20 2012 21:24 nimbim wrote:
This thread is just an excuse for every player who prefers to blame losses on external circumstances (i.e. "blizz screwed up balance") to vent their super biased opinion.
The discussion in OP completely disregards the fact that T and P had to adjust their strategies to the new balance, so naturally they lost a ton of extra games at first. Also, as pointed out a couple of times, the sample size is way too small.
Watch MVP vs Nerchio and maybe next we will see threads about "[D?]seeker missile op" and if there was a next patch, people would find something else that makes their race underpowered. If MVP and Taeja can stomp Zergs, other Terrans will (eventually) catch up. The entire reason people are annoyed is because this isn't a consequence of Zergs discovering new things, Blizzard are holding their hands and giving them the tools to defend what the other two races have been doing. The knock-on effects are pretty big too, in terms of interesting pressures and harassment. I play Protoss, and I used to like to do zealot/zealot/stalker pressures off one gate against Zerg, but it just doesn't really work anymore because Queens hold off those kind of small forces pretty easily. So instead of doing non-committal pressure harassment to force units, I found that I had to rely on 2 base timings much more given how good a catch-all defence Queens can be. Just makes for a more boring and less varied game What the fuck man? Protoss has gotten more buffs in the past year than zerg. Blizzard patches those things, because they don't work out the way they think they should. But yeah, please go and figure out how to play 5range immortal allin and do 40HP warp prism harass. Dual forges builds existed before the upgrade buff, I don't really get why the buff was put in there. From my past posts I actually disagreed with the idea to buff the immortal to hold 1/1/1s, it was tough to hold back in the day but that was as much a result of the map pool at that time than it was a consequence of the build itself. The warp prism buff was to encourage a less deathball-centric style, and to an extent it did this. However for me it's only really HerO's PvZ that consistently does this, as timing attacks and deathballs are still just as viable. Bit of a shame as I love to watch HerO's multitasking at work what's your point? Those patches happened regardless, whether you think they were needed or not. I could say the same thing about the queen range. It was not needed, but it happened. If they don't want to remove it, then they should try to fix other parts of the one MU that got really affected too much by it. Hey wait, that's what they are doing! Protoss received buffs to augment existing builds, or deal with a specific early/midgame push. However you don't see Protoss players claiming that their good play is a reason that the 1/1/1 push died, they'll accept that the patch to immortal range was the largest contributory factor. We whined like fuck about the 1/1/1, so I think it'd be hypocritical of us to castigate Zergs or Terrans for asking for changes, however most of the good Protoss posters around at least acknowledge the effect patches had. Zergs seem to on the whole claim it's righting some karmic imbalance that their race is ridiculous at the minute in ZvT
I havent seen Vortix or SortOf or Nerchio use any big queen builds either at IEM
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On August 20 2012 22:20 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
The problem with the whole "TvZ is terribly imbalanced" is that at the highest level - in Korea - there is no reason from results that we've seen (save a short period immediately following the patch) to believe that the match-up is imbalanced. MVP lost to monchi and naama at homestory-cup, to ret and idra pre-patch and to naniwa at mlg. You're making things up to support your conclusion.
That's why I said players like and not one player specifically. I use MVP as an example of a high level Korean Terran. Your few references to games do not make any strong cases against my points either. As my point is a general theme everyone here reading knows exists. Terran are just having a harder time in the matchup, it can't really be argued, players are able to overcome it obviously. But they shouldn't have to to this extent. Do you think that out of all the foreign players appearing from the tier below suddenly excelling, there shouldn't be one Terran making waves? Do you not think that's a bit of a problem for the scene?
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On August 20 2012 22:15 xrapture wrote:
I didn't really give any thought to the whole "patchzerg" craze, but Supernova vs Vortix on Antiga was one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen.
How so? SN and Vortix made the same major mistake - to attack into siege units that they were not prepared for.
Vortix was ahead until his Ultras-attack into SNs sieged position and lost much of his army without killing an equal amount. He was ahead because SN cancelled his stim-upgrade and his marine-medivac pressure did nothing.
Then SN was ahead until he attacked into BLs (to take down a hatch that he didn't manage to take down) with minimal anti-air and lost much of his army without killing an equal amount.
From that point on Vortix could take out SNs fourth and deny new expansions, while taking his own expansions.
Vortix made mistakes, but so did SN. Among them never establishing a fifth base when he was far ahead and being slow to deny Vortixs retake of his fourth.
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On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier.
So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim?
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cause the races work diffrently mby?
plus terran can punish greedy play or have you not seen vortix losing his 3rd base 3 times in a row?
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On August 20 2012 22:30 Beatmania wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:20 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
The problem with the whole "TvZ is terribly imbalanced" is that at the highest level - in Korea - there is no reason from results that we've seen (save a short period immediately following the patch) to believe that the match-up is imbalanced. MVP lost to monchi and naama at homestory-cup, to ret and idra pre-patch and to naniwa at mlg. You're making things up to support your conclusion. That's why I said players like and not one player specifically. I use MVP as an example of a high level Korean Terran. Your few references to games do not make any strong cases against my points either. As my point is a general theme everyone here reading knows exists. Terran are just having a harder time in the matchup, it can't really be argued, players are able to overcome it obviously. But they shouldn't have to to this extent. Do you think that out of all the foreign players appearing from the tier below suddenly excelling, there shouldn't be one Terran making waves? Do you not think that's a bit of a problem for the scene?
Well, it is telling that the example you used, MVP, directly contradicts your point. As for talents, in Korea, there certainly still are terran players breaking out. How about Sting? I can't speculate on why foreign terrans lack behind their Korean breathren, but it has been this way throughout the history of SC2. And even so, both Thorzain and Kas has won major tournaments in the last months.
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The whole concept of a patchzerg is that their zvt winrate would be higher, which the op kind of proves. For the op to completely ignore his zvt findings and focus on ZvZ instead is kind of silly. There's a reason that every single up and coming foreigner (sortof, vortix, suppy, livezerg, jonnyrecco) is Zerg. Do you people really think that's just a coincidence. Also you can't just point to Korean Terrans and say the MU is balanced. The overwhelming evidence outside of Korea is not random chance.
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On August 20 2012 22:38 Doodsmack wrote:
The whole concept of a patchzerg is that their zvt winrate would be higher, which the op kind of proves. For the op to completely ignore his zvt findings and focus on ZvZ instead is kind of silly. There's a reason that every single up and coming foreigner (sortof, vortix, suppy, livezerg, jonnyrecco) is Zerg. Do you people really think that's just a coincidence. Also you can't just point to Korean Terrans and say the MU is balanced. The overwhelming evidence outside of Korea is not random chance.
funny because vortix and slivko both went down in the opposite MU (ZvT <> ZvP) kinda the same percentage which they went up in the other. Last time I checked my SC2gears thats kinda the normal process if you improve in one MU.
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On August 20 2012 22:33 Beatmania wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier. So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim?
list the all ins pls
roach bane is canceled out with tanks in the 3 CC build watch idra v thorzain in the mouz v eg clan war for vod proof.
i expect likewise evidence on your claims
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On August 20 2012 22:37 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:30 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:20 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
The problem with the whole "TvZ is terribly imbalanced" is that at the highest level - in Korea - there is no reason from results that we've seen (save a short period immediately following the patch) to believe that the match-up is imbalanced. MVP lost to monchi and naama at homestory-cup, to ret and idra pre-patch and to naniwa at mlg. You're making things up to support your conclusion. That's why I said players like and not one player specifically. I use MVP as an example of a high level Korean Terran. Your few references to games do not make any strong cases against my points either. As my point is a general theme everyone here reading knows exists. Terran are just having a harder time in the matchup, it can't really be argued, players are able to overcome it obviously. But they shouldn't have to to this extent. Do you think that out of all the foreign players appearing from the tier below suddenly excelling, there shouldn't be one Terran making waves? Do you not think that's a bit of a problem for the scene? Well, it is telling that the example you used, MVP, directly contradicts your point. As for talents, in Korea, there certainly still are terran players breaking out. How about Sting? I can't speculate on why foreign terrans lack behind their Korean breathren, but it has been this way throughout the history of SC2. And even so, both Thorzain and Kas has won major tournaments in the last months.
MVP I guess was a bad example to make that generalisation, but most should be smart enough to see the point and the fact it is a generalisation. And that is Korea where people have much stronger discipline to get to the point of the game where skill can overcome anything. I think the point that I'm making that people will overlook due to their ego or whatever suffering. Is that I'm just saying it's harder for Terrans pretty much all over in this matchup. And the data collected in this thread does represent that. Thorzain and Kas have been in the scene a long time, already established as high level players. Foreign Terrans lack behind, because it requires more time, and a better attitude to achieve anything with the race. Because it is harder right now. Imbalances or not.
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EPT
