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I think the difference of Zerg today from Zerg in the past is the way how balance is achieved. What happened over the series of patches is the nerfs of all-ins and risk-based (high variance) play, which most of us would agree is a good thing. It is silly that you just lose when you guessed the opponent's build slightly wrong. Bad thing is that SC2 balance is built upon these risky and fickle things. Zerg benefits from this development, being the reactive, mobile and tech-switchy race.
Characteristics of Korean players are their ultra-sharp builds and great execution, together with their quick and smart decision-making in the little things. European Zergs often have their unique and one-catch-all build which puts them ahead in most of their games. This comes in even more handy in when you cannot prepare against your opponent. Having to train only one style (one build or many closely resembling builds) is an advantage one should not underestimate.
One should not use the term "patch zerg" to blame otherwise talentless or bad players, they are not. They rise above other Zergs because they are strong mechanically in their style and have a robust winning mentally. I think they just lack something the player of the other races have to go through to be a "complete player". This being said, I would not consider Nerchio being even close in the "patch zerg" category.
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On August 20 2012 22:42 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:33 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier. So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim? list the all ins pls roach bane is canceled out with tanks in the 3 CC build watch idra v thorzain in the mouz v eg clan war for vod proof. i expect likewise evidence on your claims
One example with a Zerg who is performing poorly lately and a really good Terran? That seems relevant to the discussion, if you like I will find sets of examples of pro Terrans losing to ling baneling all ins, and roachling all ins later. And you can find me pro Terrans all inning Zerg and winning games, k? n_n
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On August 20 2012 22:48 Beatmania wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:42 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:33 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier. So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim? list the all ins pls roach bane is canceled out with tanks in the 3 CC build watch idra v thorzain in the mouz v eg clan war for vod proof. i expect likewise evidence on your claims One example with a Zerg who is performing poorly lately and a really good Terran? That seems relevant to the discussion, if you like I will find sets of examples of pro Terrans losing to ling baneling all ins, and roachling all ins later. And you can find me pro Terrans all inning Zerg and winning games, k? n_n
2 years worth of terran play to find those examples scattered all over
besides I can't even tell what you're implying anymore are you trying to imply that Terran can no longer all in because Queens have 2 extra range?
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The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play.
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Come on guys, Slivko has always been a good player, recently he is improving, but in 2010 I knew his name already..
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You also have to account for changes in metagame as well. There's only 1 real early game strategy against non-mirror matchups for Zerg. A year ago, going hatch pool against terran seemed like the greediest play in the book from a Zerg and was deemed punishable by any early game aggression due to the late pool and therefore late zergling speed. Going pool and then double hatch against Protoss seemed like a weak response to the popular forge fast expand openings that started to become more and more popular as an opening against Zerg but it is now the standard play and it's a pretty safe assumption that if you haven't been busted down by a roach ling timing attack, that your opponent has made only drones.
I've been playing Zerg since the game's release. While I'm at no point an expert in strategy nor an expert in execution I've seen the matchups change. Every single race will have its day in the sun. Remember when everyone was crying "Terran IMBA" because they won every tournament for the first 5 months? If what is happening is truly not intended and "broken" then some action will be taken. Perhaps there are ways of using units or building that people have never thought of.
I honestly just think people use the range 5 queen as an excuse for them losing. I've played so many game where people would type "zerg op" in chat when their loss had nothing to do with the fact that I built 2 extra queens. 2 years ago everyone considered zerg by far the most underpowered race and now with just a few tweaks to infestors, overlord speed, and queens we're crazy overpowered.
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On August 20 2012 22:53 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:48 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:42 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:33 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier. So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim? list the all ins pls roach bane is canceled out with tanks in the 3 CC build watch idra v thorzain in the mouz v eg clan war for vod proof. i expect likewise evidence on your claims One example with a Zerg who is performing poorly lately and a really good Terran? That seems relevant to the discussion, if you like I will find sets of examples of pro Terrans losing to ling baneling all ins, and roachling all ins later. And you can find me pro Terrans all inning Zerg and winning games, k? n_n 2 years worth of terran play to find those examples scattered all over besides I can't even tell what you're implying anymore are you trying to imply that Terran can no longer all in because Queens have 2 extra range?
Examples since the patch please, do you know what we're discussing here? I'm saying Zerg have the advantage when it comes to the power of an "All in" in the matchup. Which they do. Otherwise Terrans would be doing all ins, and not being greedy defending all ins trying to be ready to fight toe to toe late game. It's a problem for the game as an esport when options to win games start to become limited. That is what people are failing to see because of ego.
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On August 20 2012 22:58 Beatmania wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:53 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:48 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:42 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:33 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier. So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim? list the all ins pls roach bane is canceled out with tanks in the 3 CC build watch idra v thorzain in the mouz v eg clan war for vod proof. i expect likewise evidence on your claims One example with a Zerg who is performing poorly lately and a really good Terran? That seems relevant to the discussion, if you like I will find sets of examples of pro Terrans losing to ling baneling all ins, and roachling all ins later. And you can find me pro Terrans all inning Zerg and winning games, k? n_n 2 years worth of terran play to find those examples scattered all over besides I can't even tell what you're implying anymore are you trying to imply that Terran can no longer all in because Queens have 2 extra range? Examples since the patch please, do you know what we're discussing here? I'm saying Zerg have the advantage when it comes to the power of an "All in" in the matchup. Which they do. Otherwise Terrans would be doing all ins, and not being greedy defending all ins trying to be ready to fight toe to toe late game. It's a problem for the game as an esport when options to win games start to become limited. That is what people are failing to see because of ego.
All inning into a Siege Tank and sim city sure Zerg has the advantage
Terran can still disguise their all ins if they try to and they can still do effective all ins seems lately 3 CC macro up is the standard
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On August 20 2012 22:54 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Come on guys, Slivko has always been a good player, recently he is improving, but in 2010 I knew his name already..
Just because you know him from 2010, that doesn't mean anything. He improved, but that's normal for somebody that remains active and is motivated.
P.S Please stop QQing so much on ladder when you lose, thanks
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your post fails to mention who their wins came against in non-mirror matchups, nor does it mention which tournaments those wins and losses came from. For all we know, pre-patch slivko was playing relatively weaker protoss while post-patch ended up playing stronger ones resulting in those losses. This data alone can't be used to determine whether the concept of patchzergs is a correct one.
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On August 20 2012 22:53 Irre wrote:
The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play.
Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275.
Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220.
There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss.
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On August 20 2012 23:02 Denzil wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:58 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:53 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:48 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:42 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:33 Beatmania wrote:On August 20 2012 22:21 Denzil wrote:On August 20 2012 22:13 Beatmania wrote:
I love how the community is so deluded by protecting their own ego. There are many major factors here that point to there being severe game imbalances. Whilst I don't care for this new phrase, it really can't be argued that success for these Zerg has been elevated to some level. This does not mean they aren't great players. But in ZvT at least they are having a much easier ride.
Though it's difficult to define skill exactly in a game like this, in the most generic sense it is the ability to macro, micro, and multi task better than your opponent whilst executing strategy and making smart decisions. With the patch it is far too difficult for Terran to stunt the Zergs growth with multitasking alone so one of the core skills becomes negated heavily. Some might argue this is the most important skill that defines a players ability. Right now every Terran is playing greedy hoping the Zerg won't choose to just all in them. Zerg DO NOT have this problem to worry about, and that is a problem for the game, especially as a spectator sport. Only the ignorant would contradict this point given all of the games we currently see, results, and feedback from pro Terrans.
This leads to ZvP and some of the statistics shown. A lot of the Zergs ZvP hasn't shown incredible rises like ZvT has done. And this makes perfect sense. The goal for Zerg is the same, be as greedy as possible whilst defending what Protoss throw at them. Cannon FE is a versatile build, Not only does it have potential early game damage, the follow up can be different. Whether Voidray play, or Gateway+1 timings into late game Immortal styles. The Zerg has to have better multitasking and scouting to be able to deal with it. These are the kind of strong options Terran are lacking against Zerg. And why Zerg aren't showing as strong a climb in this MU.
I really don't question these Zergs ability as players. I believe they would be able to compete at high levels regardless. But TvZ is suffering heavily right now. And if they hadn't had the large rise in win percentage vs Terran. Then it is more than likely they would have been knocked out of tournaments sooner by Terrans who can't utilise the fact they are currently better. (Koreans especially). So they are getting more credit than deserved. Though they still deserve a lot of credit.
There is a reason players like MVP would never lose to foreigners in the past, there is a reason that players like MVP are losing only to foreign Zergs. There is a reason that all new talent on the scene is Zerg. There is a reason that more people are playing Zerg than ever. It is as clear as day, and is already having a huge negative impact on the scene. We may only hope that HotS rectifies this severely flawed balance.
Also, I play Zerg n_n.
What foreign zergs is MVP losing to? Last time I checked Violet is a Korean Zerg Why did the TvZ match up win rates change so much? Doesn't take a rocket scientist, it was the patch, where every Terran suddenly lost their grasp on the TvZ matchup because the timings don't work anymore and there was a period where they were losing terribly because they had to reinvent the timings and come up with new builds What this queen buff did allow is Zerg to defend easier which is what Blizzard intended but the side effect of that being we can now reach the promised land of Brood Lord Infestor easier because we don't have to guess what all in we're defending against. So Blizzard is making a change to help Terran deal with late game Zerg, obviously 1 changes the early game and 1 changes the late game so any win rate changes won't be obvious but after seeing MVP use it successfully without the change I can only think that it's going to help the problem, the thought now should be is it going to be too good and completely destroy Zerg's late game forcing them into winning earlier. So how does the fact Zerg have the option to all in Terran for being greedy to deal with the new style, whilst Terran don't so much, support your claim? list the all ins pls roach bane is canceled out with tanks in the 3 CC build watch idra v thorzain in the mouz v eg clan war for vod proof. i expect likewise evidence on your claims One example with a Zerg who is performing poorly lately and a really good Terran? That seems relevant to the discussion, if you like I will find sets of examples of pro Terrans losing to ling baneling all ins, and roachling all ins later. And you can find me pro Terrans all inning Zerg and winning games, k? n_n 2 years worth of terran play to find those examples scattered all over besides I can't even tell what you're implying anymore are you trying to imply that Terran can no longer all in because Queens have 2 extra range? Examples since the patch please, do you know what we're discussing here? I'm saying Zerg have the advantage when it comes to the power of an "All in" in the matchup. Which they do. Otherwise Terrans would be doing all ins, and not being greedy defending all ins trying to be ready to fight toe to toe late game. It's a problem for the game as an esport when options to win games start to become limited. That is what people are failing to see because of ego. All inning into a Siege Tank and sim city sure Zerg has the advantage Terran can still disguise their all ins if they try to and they can still do effective all ins seems lately 3 CC macro up is the standard
Yeah, cos standard TvZ isn't hellion banshee for map control, and Zerg all ins don't come when 2 banshees and 6 hellions are out. You're talking about one example that isn't even the standard. Vs so many examples everywhere of hellion banshee being destroyed. Go watch demuslims stream.. If you can anyway, as he has just stopped lately. 
Also the problem isn't just the all in aspect, it's the fact that if you choose to all in a player, it should have negative implications for the player. If a Terran all in fails, it is generally always a huge loss against a early third zerg. Zerg are allowed to all in and then be massively ahead, Even if they don't do significant damage. Anyway, I don't feel like your points are worth debating any more.
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On August 20 2012 23:16 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:53 Irre wrote:
The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play. Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275. Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220. There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss.
and drg plays at 400+, almost loses to naniwa who got smashed by jrecco
and now?
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I am sure without the patch Supernova would have made the Ro.4.
We will have to see how successful Mvp style TvZ will be. If zergs find an easy solution I think a buff for Terran is necessary.
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On August 20 2012 23:04 n0ave wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:54 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Come on guys, Slivko has always been a good player, recently he is improving, but in 2010 I knew his name already.. Just because you know him from 2010, that doesn't mean anything. He improved, but that's normal for somebody that remains active and is motivated. P.S Please stop QQing so much on ladder when you lose, thanks
He's been getting results since IEM Sao Paulo.
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On August 20 2012 23:16 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:53 Irre wrote:
The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play. Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275. Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220. There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss.
What's the link between APM and skill ? DRG has more than 400 APM.
When I play terran, I have something like 180 APM, and when I play zerg, it's more like 220. But i'm master as terran and diamond as zerg. It does mean nothing at all.
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On August 20 2012 23:16 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 22:53 Irre wrote:
The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play. Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275. Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220. There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss.
What does APM have to do with what he wrote? Mechanics and APM aren't the same.
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On August 20 2012 23:20 Dexington wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:04 n0ave wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Come on guys, Slivko has always been a good player, recently he is improving, but in 2010 I knew his name already.. Just because you know him from 2010, that doesn't mean anything. He improved, but that's normal for somebody that remains active and is motivated. P.S Please stop QQing so much on ladder when you lose, thanks He's been getting results since IEM Sao Paulo.
Well, I don't think any of these players barring Slivko has enough games against notables to even begin to see anything but random chance. But it is notable that Slivko lost every set to a Korean trained terran before the (latest) patch. Thorzain, Jinro, Polt, Supernova, etc all beat him. And now he lost to Bomber and Mvp. No change, really.
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On August 20 2012 21:12 rast wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 20:17 Zarahtra wrote:
Personally I've always felt the balance vs skill is kind of like this:
[image loading]
Edit: This pic isn't really suppose to show how the races are balanced against each other, but rather how a middle of the road terran does compared to a top terran, how a middle of the road zerg does compared to a top zerg and how a middle of the road toss does compared to a top toss. Just didn't wanna show 3 pics
Why that is? Because both protoss and terran need to find creative ways to hurt zerg before t3, else against a player that defends decently enough, they just loose, not really because of skill, but because both races have a really hard time dealing with t3.
Basically a BL army controlled by DRG with infestors underneath are pretty much exactly as good as if the army was controlled by Vortix. Compare that to stalkers/army controlled by MC vs it being controlled by Bling. And finally compare rines controlled by MKP to them being controlled by Sjow. The difference is: the BLs would end up relatively similarly controlled, stalkers would be a lot better controlled and rines are like 3x times better in the hands of MKP.
Basically all the races need to look like terran(pref) or toss, and no race should ever look like zerg.
Are you even aware what units does zerg have, because it seems that you have no clue. How is zerg suppose to micro meele units agains a ranget ones? Have you ever seen a zelot microed agains marines? No, because ITS NOT POSSIBLE. How are you supposed to micro like a slowest unit in the game (BL)? Do terrans micro their thors? No - because you cannot micro such slow unit... You compare one of the fastest unit in the game (stimmed marines), and one of the most mobile unit - blink stalkers, to some slow glass cannon type of unit - BL. Only units that zergs can shine with micro are zerglings and roaches, and only like in ZvZ matchup, because you can only micro agains similary fast unit with similar range, and in other MU terran and prottos ussualy have upper hand here. Its just the unit design that was delivered for zerg. Zerg is a swarm, they are suppose to swarm their enemy, no micro them to death. I dont judge wheather its good/bad design, its just how it has been thought of by Blizzard. Zergs are suppose to flak and runby armies. Compare this apects of zerg players, not BL control lol. And last poit -hos is it possible, that such A-moving race, I mean zerg, has comparable are often higher APM than their adversary? Are they just spamming a-move like 300 times a minute?
My point is that due to how the game is designed the skill... curve is like it is. I mean players will always just play as good as their race/skill allows it, so it's not the players that can do anything about it.
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On August 20 2012 23:36 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:20 Dexington wrote:On August 20 2012 23:04 n0ave wrote:On August 20 2012 22:54 E.L.V.I.S wrote:
Come on guys, Slivko has always been a good player, recently he is improving, but in 2010 I knew his name already.. Just because you know him from 2010, that doesn't mean anything. He improved, but that's normal for somebody that remains active and is motivated. P.S Please stop QQing so much on ladder when you lose, thanks He's been getting results since IEM Sao Paulo. Well, I don't think any of these players barring Slivko has enough games against notables to even begin to see anything but random chance. But it is notable that Slivko lost every set to a Korean trained terran before the (latest) patch. Thorzain, Jinro, Polt, Supernova, etc all beat him. And now he lost to Bomber and Mvp. No change, really.
He has been consistently making it to the top 16 or 8 of tournaments though, since before the patch. That speaks to a consistency that shows he isn't a patch Zerg.
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EPT
