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LooZerg
United States32 Posts
A Term coined for people who have been playing these fairly strong races since release while Zerg had to figure them out. but when blizzard levels the playing field, they whine and whine about how Imba Zerg is instead of taking the ReleaseZerg route and just figuring out how to win at a disadvantage (Also, all that changed was overlord speed and Queen GROUND range. They're nerfing creep now and buffing Ravens. So chill) | ||
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ondik
Czech Republic2908 Posts
Really incredible, I don't even understand how the thread hasn't been closed yet. | ||
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TastiC
Netherlands40 Posts
Personally I feel that zerg is too forgiving for the zerg player, not scouting and still being able to hold off alot of attacks is just silly. The same goes for being able to have bad macro, but the race allows for bad macro, so you can spend it all in once whereas other races have to actually keep up with productions. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:31 kranten wrote: What does APM have to do with what he wrote? Mechanics and APM aren't the same. They are not the same (but what is meant by 'mechanics', in that context, if not something having to do with being able to do many things in a short period of time?), but they are related and APM puts a limit on the situations in which players can be successful. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10135 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:16 m0ck wrote: Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275. Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220. There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss. APM doesn't matter when you can't make the right decissions or multitask properly. Nice try tho. Nerchio and Vortix has almost zero multitask capabilities compared to really good players. | ||
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
 VortiX might have a similar win rate currently to what he had before, but the quality of opponents he's playing against has massively changed because he's suddenly qualifying for big tournaments with big name players instead of only playing in small scale tournaments.Lets take a look at some tournaments VortiX played pre-patchIEM Season 6 EU Qualifiera EU Zotac Cup #97 The Gathering Easter 2012 EU Zotac Cup #102 Zotac Monthly Final Can you honestly say you know most of these players, or even if you do, can you honestly say that these players are world class players? Having a score of 55% win rate against these is not impressive for a professional player. Now lets take a look at the opponents he's playing AFTER the patch. TSL4 EU-NA Qualifier #3 TSL StarLeague Qualfier #6 0-1 MaFiaEU ZOTAC Cup #112 1-2 BlyIPL 5 EU Regionals 1-2 CytoplasmTSL EU-NA Qualifier #7 IPL Fight Club 3-5  SquirtleTSL4 EU ZOTAC Cup IEM VII The difference between quality of players is insane, he went from barely coming out ahead against semi pro's to doing above average against top tier Koreans and foreigners. "Mysteriously" after the patch, obviously. Even looking at tournament wins this should be obvious. He has won 5 tournaments since patch 1.4.2, that is, he has won 5 tournaments in 2 months. Compared to his previous record of winning about 1 tournament every 2 months, going to winning 5 tournaments in 2 months is quite a substantial difference. Don't let win rates fool you. Instead, look at who they are winning against. The same basically applies to all of the other patch zergs, however, doing this for just one was enough work as it was. Don't be fooled by win rates, because they do not tell the whole story. | ||
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:39 LooZerg wrote: Hmm, I'd like to see you write a post about ReleaseToss* and ReleaseTerran* A Term coined for people who have been playing these fairly strong races since release while Zerg had to figure them out. but when blizzard levels the playing field, they whine and whine about how Imba Zerg is instead of taking the ReleaseZerg route and just figuring out how to win at a disadvantage LOL!!! Thank you so much. This is exactly the truth right here. 2010: "Zerg is fine." 2010: "Zergs QQ too much." 2010: "Zergs just need to innovate." 2010: "You can't keep doing the same losing plays and expect to start winning." 2012: "OMG SO IMBA!!!" Ah how the tables have turned. Zerg was UP for like a year and a half and Terrans were dominating tournaments since release. Go look at 2011 TLPD stats, Terran on top 12 months in a row! And now, one single patch where Terrans aren't so hot and they absolutely lose it. Suck it up, every race has had a chance at being weak and terran has been the strongest for so damn long. It is only a matter of time before blizz nerfs zerg or buffs terran, so everyone just calm down. It took like 2 years for blizzard to finally turn the dominant race into the weak race, but thank god they finally achieved it. Not just because it allows me to turn all those ridiculous comments about Zerg when they were weak back onto the Terrans, but because honestly struggle is good. Difficulty leads to better play, to more innovation, to superior strategies. Also, it helps for people to be in another's shoes for a bit so they learn a little humility and quit making ridiculous threads like "Are whiny people attracted to Zerg?" | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
just look at one of warcraft 3s "patch orcs": lucifron. | ||
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TastiC
Netherlands40 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:41 m0ck wrote: They are not the same (but what is meant by 'mechanics', in that context, if not something having to do with being able to do many things in a short period of time?), but they are related and APM puts a limit on the situations in which players can be successful. Being fast as a player is a good thing yes, but the APM counter isn´t a good representation of this. You can download the replays aswell, nerchio has nowhere close as 310 apm vs the MVP games. His EPM is around 120~ while his apm is around 236 on atlantis spaceship. You could clearly see that the multi tasking of MVP was hurting the ''patchzergs''. the constant denying of bases and dropping in multiple places while losing infestors in the middle of the map. And still this isn't punishing enough for the zerg, because hivetech is extremely strong. | ||
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tgun
434 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:43 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:+ Show Spoiler + You can't just look at win rates, they don't tell the whole story. This is because you're only looking at a select few winrates from televised matches, not at their global win rates (counting qualifiers and open brackets, that are typically not broadcast). VortiX might have a similar win rate currently to what he had before, but the quality of opponents he's playing against has massively changed because he's suddenly qualifying for big tournaments with big name players instead of only playing in small scale tournaments.Lets take a look at some tournaments VortiX played pre-patchIEM Season 6 EU Qualifiera EU Zotac Cup #97 The Gathering Easter 2012 EU Zotac Cup #102 Zotac Monthly Final Can you honestly say you know most of these players, or even if you do, can you honestly say that these players are world class players? Having a score of 55% win rate against these is not impressive for a professional player. Now lets take a look at the opponents he's playing AFTER the patch. TSL4 EU-NA Qualifier #3 TSL EU-NA Qualifier #7 IPL Fight Club 3-5 SquirtleTSL4 EU ZOTAC Cup IEM VII The difference between quality of players is insane, he went from barely coming out ahead against semi pro's to doing above average against top tier Koreans and foreigners. "Mysteriously" after the patch, obviously. Even looking at tournament wins this should be obvious. He has won 5 tournaments since patch 1.4.2, that is, he has won 5 tournaments in 2 months. Compared to his previous record of winning about 1 tournament every 2 months, going to winning 5 tournaments in 2 months, that's quite a substantial difference. Don't let win rates fool you. Instead, look at who they are winning against. The same basically applies to all of the other patch zergs, however, doing this for just one was enough work as it was. Don't be fooled by win rates, because they do not tell the whole story. Are you kidding me? A 55% winrate against those opponents was good -- not amazing, but respectable and good. You're seeing names such as Nerchio, Bly, Dimaga.. and trying to downplay them? Deadset mate, stop trying to talk about balance when things like these are your arguments. You have no clue. | ||
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:50 tgun wrote: Are you kidding me? A 55% winrate against those opponents was good -- not amazing, but respectable and good. You're seeing names such as Nerchio, Bly, Dimaga.. and trying to downplay them? Deadset mate, stop trying to talk about balance when things like these are your arguments. You have no clue. The good players you mentioned are all zergs, mate. ZvZ isn't impacted by balance. My point still stands, sorry. Try again. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:43 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: You can't just look at win rates, they don't tell the whole story. This is because you're only looking at a select few winrates from televised matches, not at their global win rates (counting qualifiers and open brackets, that are typically not broadcast). VortiX might have a similar win rate currently to what he had before, but the quality of opponents he's playing against has massively changed because he's suddenly qualifying for big tournaments with big name players instead of only playing in small scale tournaments.Lets take a look at some tournaments VortiX played pre-patchIEM Season 6 EU Qualifiera EU Zotac Cup #97 The Gathering Easter 2012 EU Zotac Cup #102 Zotac Monthly Final Can you honestly say you know most of these players, or even if you do, can you honestly say that these players are world class players? Having a score of 55% win rate against these is not impressive for a professional player. Now lets take a look at the opponents he's playing AFTER the patch. TSL4 EU-NA Qualifier #3 TSL EU-NA Qualifier #7 IPL Fight Club TSL4 EU ZOTAC Cup IEM VII The difference between quality of players is insane, he went from barely coming out ahead against semi pro's to doing above average against top tier Koreans and foreigners. "Mysteriously" after the patch, obviously. Even looking at tournament wins this should be obvious. He has won 5 tournaments since patch 1.4.2, that is, he has won 5 tournaments in 2 months. Compared to his previous record of winning about 1 tournament every 2 months, going to winning 5 tournaments in 2 months is quite a substantial difference. Don't let win rates fool you. Instead, look at who they are winning against. The same basically applies to all of the other patch zergs, however, doing this for just one was enough work as it was. Don't be fooled by win rates, because they do not tell the whole story. don't be fooled by opponents, because they do not tell the whole story. Did you look at before patch zvz and after patch? See the difference? He is just a patch zvz'er. I use the same logic as you, and come to a different conclusion, i wonder who's right? | ||
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krutopatkin
Germany2612 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:43 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: You can't just look at win rates, they don't tell the whole story. This is because you're only looking at a select few winrates from televised matches, not at their global win rates (counting qualifiers and open brackets, that are typically not broadcast). VortiX might have a similar win rate currently to what he had before, but the quality of opponents he's playing against has massively changed because he's suddenly qualifying for big tournaments with big name players instead of only playing in small scale tournaments.Lets take a look at some tournaments VortiX played pre-patchIEM Season 6 EU Qualifiera EU Zotac Cup #97 The Gathering Easter 2012 EU Zotac Cup #102 Zotac Monthly Final Can you honestly say you know most of these players, or even if you do, can you honestly say that these players are world class players? Having a score of 55% win rate against these is not impressive for a professional player. Now lets take a look at the opponents he's playing AFTER the patch. TSL4 EU-NA Qualifier #3 TSL EU-NA Qualifier #7 IPL Fight Club TSL4 EU ZOTAC Cup IEM VII The difference between quality of players is insane, he went from barely coming out ahead against semi pro's to doing above average against top tier Koreans and foreigners. "Mysteriously" after the patch, obviously. Even looking at tournament wins this should be obvious. He has won 5 tournaments since patch 1.4.2, that is, he has won 5 tournaments in 2 months. Compared to his previous record of winning about 1 tournament every 2 months, going to winning 5 tournaments in 2 months is quite a substantial difference. Don't let win rates fool you. Instead, look at who they are winning against. The same basically applies to all of the other patch zergs, however, doing this for just one was enough work as it was. Don't be fooled by win rates, because they do not tell the whole story. While he wins against way better players, those people are also Zerg, prepatch VortiX lost against people like DIMAGA, bly and syz, while after the patch he wins against people like Golden, darkforce and Revival with ease. While the patch gave him a boost for sure ( obviously, since his race got buffed) he also improved as a player. | ||
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m0ck
4194 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:46 TastiC wrote: Being fast as a player is a good thing yes, but the APM counter isn´t a good representation of this. You can download the replays aswell, nerchio has nowhere close as 310 apm vs the MVP games. His EPM is around 120~ while his apm is around 236 on atlantis spaceship. You could clearly see that the multi tasking of MVP was hurting the ''patchzergs''. the constant denying of bases and dropping in multiple places while losing infestors in the middle of the map. And still this isn't punishing enough for the zerg, because hivetech is extremely strong. I'm lifting my numbers from this weekends replays. And yes, MVP is faster still (~360) and is able to use his speed to punish the zergs. And he won 3-1 and 3-1 doing that. Funny you should mention eAPM (which means what, exactly? I see no reason to believe that it is a better representation of player-speed). Vortix ~183, Nerchio ~163 and MVP ~155. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:52 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: The good players you mentioned are all zergs, mate. ZvZ isn't impacted by balance. My point still stands, sorry. Try again. well, to make it short: nope, you don't even have a point, so how could it still stand? all you do is talk nonsense and try to interpret things you don't have a clue about with a method that doesn't make sense with a sample size which is a joke. | ||
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Swiipii
2195 Posts
On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote: See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . | ||
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rast
Poland44 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:41 TastiC wrote: atleast bring EPM in it, having 400 apm but spam clicking your units 5x more isn't relevant. Besides, your numbers aren't correct. Personally I feel that zerg is too forgiving for the zerg player, not scouting and still being able to hold off alot of attacks is just silly. The same goes for being able to have bad macro, but the race allows for bad macro, so you can spend it all in once whereas other races have to actually keep up with productions. THis is both true and false. Zerg is reactionary race, you are not supposed to build units prematurely, because for instance roche ling is so easly countered by tank helion. Zerg cannot drop a money-scan in opponents base to see what is his tech choice. Zergs are by design supposed to stockpile money in order to be able to react if they see what's opponents army composition. While I agree it doesn't punish bad macro players, zergs pays for such feature with weaker units overall. On the other hand, I've seen terran work regardless of tech choice on recent IEM to some extent. | ||
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tgun
434 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:52 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: The good players you mentioned are all zergs, mate. ZvZ isn't impacted by balance. My point still stands, sorry. Try again. Yeah, and all the other players, he beat. Your point doesn't stand at all.. Editing in relevant point: On August 20 2012 23:54 krutopatkin wrote: + Show Spoiler + On August 20 2012 23:43 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: You can't just look at win rates, they don't tell the whole story. This is because you're only looking at a select few winrates from televised matches, not at their global win rates (counting qualifiers and open brackets, that are typically not broadcast). VortiX might have a similar win rate currently to what he had before, but the quality of opponents he's playing against has massively changed because he's suddenly qualifying for big tournaments with big name players instead of only playing in small scale tournaments.Lets take a look at some tournaments VortiX played pre-patchIEM Season 6 EU Qualifiera EU Zotac Cup #97 The Gathering Easter 2012 EU Zotac Cup #102 Zotac Monthly Final Can you honestly say you know most of these players, or even if you do, can you honestly say that these players are world class players? Having a score of 55% win rate against these is not impressive for a professional player. Now lets take a look at the opponents he's playing AFTER the patch. TSL4 EU-NA Qualifier #3 TSL EU-NA Qualifier #7 IPL Fight Club TSL4 EU ZOTAC Cup IEM VII The difference between quality of players is insane, he went from barely coming out ahead against semi pro's to doing above average against top tier Koreans and foreigners. "Mysteriously" after the patch, obviously. Even looking at tournament wins this should be obvious. He has won 5 tournaments since patch 1.4.2, that is, he has won 5 tournaments in 2 months. Compared to his previous record of winning about 1 tournament every 2 months, going to winning 5 tournaments in 2 months is quite a substantial difference. Don't let win rates fool you. Instead, look at who they are winning against. The same basically applies to all of the other patch zergs, however, doing this for just one was enough work as it was. Don't be fooled by win rates, because they do not tell the whole story. While he wins against way better players, those people are also Zerg, prepatch VortiX lost against people like DIMAGA, bly and syz, while after the patch he wins against people like Golden, darkforce and Revival with ease. While the patch gave him a boost for sure ( obviously, since his race got buffed) he also improved as a player. | ||
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BadgerBadger8264
Netherlands409 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:54 krutopatkin wrote: While he wins against way better players, those people are also Zerg, prepatch VortiX lost against people like DIMAGA, bly and syz, while after the patch he wins against people like Golden, darkforce and Revival with ease. While the patch gave him a boost for sure ( obviously, since his race got buffed) he also improved as a player. He won against Nerchio pre-patch as well. And, I didn't include these three tournaments because I didn't think they were relevant to a discussion on ZvP and ZvT, I will if people think his "ZvZ" is such a big deal. I'll update my original post with them as well. All post patch. TSL StarLeague Qualfier #6 0-1 MaFiaEU ZOTAC Cup #112 1-2 BlyIPL 5 EU Regionals 1-2 Cytoplasm | ||
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TastiC
Netherlands40 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:55 m0ck wrote: I'm lifting my numbers from this weekends replays. And yes, MVP is faster still (~360) and is able to use his speed to punish the zergs. And he won 3-1 and 3-1 doing that. Funny you should mention eAPM (which means what, exactly? I see no reason to believe that it is a better representation of player-speed). Vortix ~183, Nerchio ~163 and MVP ~155. Oh, really? Then please direct me to the games where nerchios EPM was actually higher and in the 163? Same for Vortix? Please don't throw random numbers around. The reason why APM is a useless statistic, is because you can have 300 apm but not actually do anything of worth. EPM ignores this for the most part and is the more realistic statisitic. Which I still feel isn't a representation of skills. | ||
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