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France12795 Posts
On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) .
NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol.
NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen.
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On August 21 2012 00:03 TastiC wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:55 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 23:46 TastiC wrote:On August 20 2012 23:41 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 23:31 kranten wrote:On August 20 2012 23:16 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 22:53 Irre wrote:
The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play. Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275. Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220. There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss. What does APM have to do with what he wrote? Mechanics and APM aren't the same. They are not the same (but what is meant by 'mechanics', in that context, if not something having to do with being able to do many things in a short period of time?), but they are related and APM puts a limit on the situations in which players can be successful. Being fast as a player is a good thing yes, but the APM counter isn´t a good representation of this. You can download the replays aswell, nerchio has nowhere close as 310 apm vs the MVP games. His EPM is around 120~ while his apm is around 236 on atlantis spaceship. You could clearly see that the multi tasking of MVP was hurting the ''patchzergs''. the constant denying of bases and dropping in multiple places while losing infestors in the middle of the map. And still this isn't punishing enough for the zerg, because hivetech is extremely strong. I'm lifting my numbers from this weekends replays. And yes, MVP is faster still (~360) and is able to use his speed to punish the zergs. And he won 3-1 and 3-1 doing that. Funny you should mention eAPM (which means what, exactly? I see no reason to believe that it is a better representation of player-speed). Vortix ~183, Nerchio ~163 and MVP ~155. Oh, really? Then please direct me to the games where nerchios EPM was actually higher and in the 163? Same for Vortix? Please don't throw random numbers around. The reason why APM is a useless statistic, is because you can have 300 apm but not actually do anything of worth. EPM ignores this for the most part and is the more realistic statisitic. Which I still feel isn't a representation of skills.
Could you explain to me what exactly is done to the APM number to create eAPM?
I use Sc2gears to create an average over multiple replays. You can download replay-packs from the ESL-site. They are based on 12 replays for MVP, 13 for Nerchio and 10 for Vortix.
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Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league  They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
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On August 21 2012 00:07 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:03 TastiC wrote:On August 20 2012 23:55 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 23:46 TastiC wrote:On August 20 2012 23:41 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 23:31 kranten wrote:On August 20 2012 23:16 m0ck wrote:On August 20 2012 22:53 Irre wrote:
The reason people are upset about "patchzergs" is because mechanics in this game just seem to mean very little when its so easy for for a zerg now to just take 3 bases so quickly and tech to t3 deathball while being completely safe due to infestors, and at the same time not have to really do anything but macro up. This style was prevalent before the patch, but the patch made it that much easier to do. DRG and Nestea and Leenock and July at their top points were so impressive because they had incredible mechanics. The new players we see impress by their ability to block aggression and get a deathball. ( Oh yeah and "infestor control"). It just doesn't feel as good to see them win vs a player who has insanely good mechanical skill, and thus people get upset. I miss the days when July was crushing face with insanely good harass and mutaling bane attacks off 3/4 base. Was so fun to watch and I really feel like mutas not really being seen in the MU as much, and all the infestor heavy play has dumbed down zerg play. Nerchio and Vortix, the players with the most success against terran this past weekend, are both 300+ APM players (~320 and ~310 respectively). Sortof and Slivko are slower (~250 and ~240), but are their results versus terran really that impressive? Nestea plays at ~285 and Leenock at ~275. Meanwhile, Kas plays at ~240, Thorzain ~190, Lucifron ~240, socke ~225, Grubby ~180 and naniwa ~220. There are reasons to criticize the development of zerg metagame (it is becoming what people don't like about protoss, amass a deathball and win), but to point to it being easy because of speed is not the right place. Being a succesful zerg in lategame demands a lot of speed, maybe more so than the other races. That may not be true of terran anymore (you need a lot of speed in order to multitask against Z in lategame), but it is definitely true of protoss. What does APM have to do with what he wrote? Mechanics and APM aren't the same. They are not the same (but what is meant by 'mechanics', in that context, if not something having to do with being able to do many things in a short period of time?), but they are related and APM puts a limit on the situations in which players can be successful. Being fast as a player is a good thing yes, but the APM counter isn´t a good representation of this. You can download the replays aswell, nerchio has nowhere close as 310 apm vs the MVP games. His EPM is around 120~ while his apm is around 236 on atlantis spaceship. You could clearly see that the multi tasking of MVP was hurting the ''patchzergs''. the constant denying of bases and dropping in multiple places while losing infestors in the middle of the map. And still this isn't punishing enough for the zerg, because hivetech is extremely strong. I'm lifting my numbers from this weekends replays. And yes, MVP is faster still (~360) and is able to use his speed to punish the zergs. And he won 3-1 and 3-1 doing that. Funny you should mention eAPM (which means what, exactly? I see no reason to believe that it is a better representation of player-speed). Vortix ~183, Nerchio ~163 and MVP ~155. Oh, really? Then please direct me to the games where nerchios EPM was actually higher and in the 163? Same for Vortix? Please don't throw random numbers around. The reason why APM is a useless statistic, is because you can have 300 apm but not actually do anything of worth. EPM ignores this for the most part and is the more realistic statisitic. Which I still feel isn't a representation of skills. Could you explain to me what exactly is done to the APM number to create eAPM? I use Sc2gears to create an average over multiple replays. You can download replay-packs from the ESL-site. They are based on 12 replays for MVP, 13 for Nerchio and 10 for Vortix.
I don't want to actually be drawn away from the point I was trying to make. APM/EPM isn't a relevant thing to consider in top level play.
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Northern Ireland25130 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
This is such a bullshit argument.
Not everybody is claiming that Zergs somehow became unbeatable, merely that they are easier to get to the stage where they become a very powerful race, that they have an extremely strong lategame, but that was mitigated in the past with the difficulty of achieving said compositions.
For example, most Protoss players don't claim PvZ is imbalanced in terms of the balance, but they dislike the form the matchup takes, i.e 2 base allin, or a pre-BL Collosus timing, or Vortex vs BL/Infestor is how the vast majority of PvZs play out. Way I see it the Terrans are decrying the current state of TvZ following a similar pattern, with the claim the Queen range update is a big contributory factor to this state of affairs.
The game is progressing in a way that now it's not just Protoss that have a deathball that they rush to in their matchups, but Zergs now do it too. It's not good for SC2 from a spectator perspective.
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On August 20 2012 23:44 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:39 LooZerg wrote:
Hmm, I'd like to see you write a post about ReleaseToss* and ReleaseTerran*
A Term coined for people who have been playing these fairly strong races since release while Zerg had to figure them out. but when blizzard levels the playing field, they whine and whine about how Imba Zerg is instead of taking the ReleaseZerg route and just figuring out how to win at a disadvantage LOL!!! Thank you so much. This is exactly the truth right here. 2010: "Zerg is fine." 2010: "Zergs QQ too much." 2010: "Zergs just need to innovate." 2010: "You can't keep doing the same losing plays and expect to start winning." 2012: "OMG SO IMBA!!!" Ah how the tables have turned. Zerg was UP for like a year and a half and Terrans were dominating tournaments since release. Go look at 2011 TLPD stats, Terran on top 12 months in a row! And now, one single patch where Terrans aren't so hot and they absolutely lose it. Suck it up, every race has had a chance at being weak and terran has been the strongest for so damn long. It is only a matter of time before blizz nerfs zerg or buffs terran, so everyone just calm down. It took like 2 years for blizzard to finally turn the dominant race into the weak race, but thank god they finally achieved it. Not just because it allows me to turn all those ridiculous comments about Zerg when they were weak back onto the Terrans, but because honestly struggle is good. Difficulty leads to better play, to more innovation, to superior strategies. Also, it helps for people to be in another's shoes for a bit so they learn a little humility and quit making ridiculous threads like "Are whiny people attracted to Zerg?"
This argument misses the point kind of.
One, patch zergs are mostly foreign phenomenon as far as highest level of play is concerned. Why are there no Korean patch zergs and so many of them in foreign scene ?
Second, if it was only about zergs finally being on the same level as the other two races, why only foreign zergs can consistently cause problems for Korean pros ? Are people that are playing zerg outside of Korea just naturally more skilled and were just being held back by imbalance before ? This would be similar argument as was made so long for Terrans in Korea.
My own hypothesis is that with the patch zerg became the most "flat" race in terms of skill differentiation. Basically a lot of zergs thanks to a patch got elevated to a top foreigner level. But that is where the patch ends, to achieve anything higher you need to be actually good. Thus no such phenomenon in Korea due to higher level of play.
Second most flat race is protoss, terran is most differentiated. The whole problem is caused by bad design of zerg that makes skill differentiation at top foreigner level too flat. Similarly flat as it is for protoss in some ranges in lower leagues.
Another thing that happened is that some niche zerg plays that were unstable before the patch, became much more stable due to either patch or metagame shifts. And since it seems foreign scene has more such niche styles, patch would affect it more.
Anyway, anything said on the topic is more or less speculation.
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The first question to ask is how much of the SC2 scene do you actually follow (and care about). If it's just the very top (GSL & top EU / NA events) everything seems right and zergs by no means feel OP.
But you follow more of the scene - well, some things feel weird. Take the GO4SC2 cup standings:
http://www.esl.eu/eu/sc2/go4sc2/standings/
I know, the level of this cup is nowhere near a premier event with a bunch of Code-S invites. But this is competitive gaming and it seems that zergs are a bit too good here. They keep pushing the most spectacular TvX match-ups towards extinction, making the cup not that good too watch.
I can certainly live with that - it is no problem to kill the stream at the point it becomes the usual ZvZ / PvZ fest. Still, I'd prefer to have a better chance for good games involving all three races at this competitive / semi-pro level too.
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On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
THANK YOU!
its funny to see some low league players trying to argue with gm players about balance tho.
but ye its really disrespectful calling people patchzergs or whatever if you really dont know anything about the person ... god knows he couldve played 18hrs/day for the last 3 months and you disregard such hard workethic by saying patchzerg while you self are stuck in silver and rather whine about balance than actually playing and improving. stop it for gods sake
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France12795 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
Lol is this for real...
Why would they even take games off koreans? -;-.
Most koreans are better than the players you quoted so I don't see your point.
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On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen.
Gets in every code S in existence and reigned since the dark ages of zerg.
gets called not a top zerg.
Yea that ro8 was decent, not good, just decent...
Excuse me?
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On August 21 2012 00:20 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro. Lol is this for real... Why would they even take games off koreans? -;-. Most koreans are better than the players you quoted so I don't see your point.
His point is, that most ppl claiming that "patchzerg" like Slivko, Votix and SortOf, who are also supposedly worse that most koreans, suddenly started to take games off them.
U see it now, or still more explaination is needed?
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On August 21 2012 00:24 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen. Gets in every code S in existence and reigned since the dark ages of zerg. gets called not a top zerg. Yea that ro8 was decent, not good, just decent... Excuse me?
Is the only player to ever win a GSL without dropping a single set and the only one to have ever won 2 GSLs in a row, gets called decent in GSL settings by a random guy on TL.
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On August 20 2012 09:29 MasterOfPuppets wrote:
People who complain about "patchzergs" are people who have absolutely no idea with regards to who is good in the foreign scene beyond the top 10. "OMG I don't know this guy therefore he's a noob; this noob just beat a player who i know is good, the game must be broken argh"
It's simple. If you want to have an educated opinion on who is good at the moment, you need to follow a lot of starcraft, including the much overlooked daily/weekly cups and smaller invitationals. If you can't be bothered to do that then that's fine, I respect your choice but don't talk about something that you are intentionally uninformed about, it just makes you look ignorant and foolish.
Thank you OP for putting the time and effort into this thread, I agree completely with you. On a semi-related note, this sort of reminds me in a way of Stephano back when he made his breakout, people thought he was a flash in the pan and not a genuinely talented player even though he's had absolute stomps (over top european terrans at the time) dating all the way back to april / may 2011 if I recall correctly.
I'm pretty excited with regards to what the future holds for these players, as well as some others like Ziktomini, JohnnyREcco, Scarlett etc. Always good to have more talent. ^^
Suppy too! How dare you forget Suppy?!? :O!!
Now get CS:GO! I don't care if it's not 1.6 lol.
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On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen.
Keen equal to Taeja , Ryung or MKP ? At TvZ ? Not really no .
"Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either" ? Lol really ?
Nestea is Nestea . The only Zerg who won 3 GSL and never droped from code S . If Nestea is far from being a top Zerg then Keen is just a random shit and SuperNova aswell .
I'll stop posting now . I can understand that seing not so good Zerg players make a few wins is bothering (to say the least). But they are not winning anything . And people should acknowledge this fact .
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On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen.
This is wrong and biased
"Nestea is far from being a top zerg", i'm already laughing but ok let's go on
Then Keen is somehow as good as Taeja or MKP ? Protip : He is just like Nestea, an old player that hasnt made any results since 2011
Also, Nerchio is indeed way above Demuslim
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France12795 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:27 Yaki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:24 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen. Gets in every code S in existence and reigned since the dark ages of zerg. gets called not a top zerg. Yea that ro8 was decent, not good, just decent... Excuse me? Is the only player to ever win a GSL without dropping a single set and the only one to have ever won 2 GSLs in a row, gets called decent in GSL settings by a random guy on TL.
He didn't really won 2 GSLs in a row since Polt won the Super Tournament in between. Winning a GSL without dropping a single set with the weakest road of the history of GSL doesn't tell much about his current skill level.
And yeah relative to the GSL players a ro8 result is decent : who remembers the top 8 players of GSL that occured 3 months ago? And yes I said it he does decent in GSL because of the format but in live events he probably won't post the same result as other GSL ro8 players.
@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous.
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Northern Ireland25130 Posts
On August 21 2012 00:35 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:27 Yaki wrote:On August 21 2012 00:24 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen. Gets in every code S in existence and reigned since the dark ages of zerg. gets called not a top zerg. Yea that ro8 was decent, not good, just decent... Excuse me? Is the only player to ever win a GSL without dropping a single set and the only one to have ever won 2 GSLs in a row, gets called decent in GSL settings by a random guy on TL. He didn't really won 2 GSLs in a row since Polt won the Super Tournament in between. Winning a GSL without dropping a single set with the weakest road of the history of GSL doesn't tell much about his current skill level. And yeah relative to the GSL players a ro8 result is decent : who remembers the top 8 players of GSL that occured 3 months ago? And yes I said it he does decent in GSL because of the format but in live events he probably won't post the same result as other GSL ro8 players.
Nestea is a strategically strong player, with adequate mechanics behind that. He shines in that kind of environment, but he generally struggles at the grind of LANs, historically and nowadays too. His only really strong LAN experience that I recall from memory is that he did pretty damn well at Ironsquid
Foreign Z players on the other hand, tend to have good catch-all styles that they can whip out every single time. In the GSL these weaknesses can be analysed and specific builds prepared, at tournaments on the fly it's a bit difficult to do. I figure this is also part of the reason people are whining so much about Z at present, that the onus is on P and T players to have to mix it up a lot, while the Zerg largely can continue to do their own thing
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On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
Citizen kane.gif
Splendid, truly splendid.
Balance patch obviously had huge impact to the TvZ match up, but it is ridiculous to suggest that these eu players are only able to beat korean terran is because of the patch. where as there guys have not had winning.
Now that this statment is made, whole round of 16 will be Zergs at the MLG. You heard it first here folks!
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This game become balanced purely after legacy of void this is only path to pure balance u must count with it when u play it at this time train + little patch help can make result ,after legacy it will be only skill , experience and train,play vs players with it.... players who will play during all new patch and hots+lotv will be strongest after and game become more less random .....
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On August 21 2012 00:35 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:27 Yaki wrote:On August 21 2012 00:24 Assirra wrote:On August 21 2012 00:04 Poopi wrote:On August 20 2012 23:57 Swiipii wrote:On August 20 2012 21:53 Sethronu wrote:On August 20 2012 21:35 Swiipii wrote:
I don't think that anyone is denying the fact that Zerg are doing quite well vs Terrans atm . But saying that Zerg is just "A+click trololol sdsdsdsds 1a1a1a1a" and that SortOf/JR/etc.. can be compared to players like DRG or even Stephano is just bullshit .
Whether they are pre-patch Zergs or not they aren't winning anything and i am sure they never will (at the highest level of play).
Looking forward to the next MLG and watch some "real" TvZ .
See, I don't think anyone is saying that every Zerg is just a+click 1a1a1a1 and that SortOf = DRG; what annoys people is that there is very little difference in results between players like SortOf/JR/Vortix who are obviously not anywhere close to being Code S levels in their control and mechanics etc compared to Code S level zergs, at least in ZvT. It's entirely possible that the current ZvT situation is very temporary, but in the meantime it's frustrating watching that kind of play going as far as it did in tournaments like IEM which was 'supposed' to be pretty loaded with talent. I don't want to say that Vortix or JohnnyRecco or whatever is talentless and bad - but I don't see how can anyone deny that their games in IEM & TSL were awful in every sense of that word. It's obvious that the way the game was patched has a lot to do with viability of the style of play they used, hence the hate on the patches and the 'patchzergs'. It's silly to sit around guessing whether they'd be any good without the queen / infestor patches or not (or if the patches were different), but looking at how they play - in the game as it is now, 'patchzerg' does seem like a pretty fitting name. :p Did you even watch those games ? ForGG's play at IEM against Vortix was just embarrassing to the Terran race . And you can wonder how did he took 3rd place at Assembly . Again not saying that those players are not surfing on the patch wave but stop being overdramatic (not pointing at you in particular of course) . Every one kept their mouth shut when Nestea got rolled by Puma and Kas or when Strelok took a game from him or even when Demuslim defeated Nerchio in group stages . Upsets happens . As long as I don't see JR or SortOf taking a game from players like MKP, Taeja, Ryung or even Polt I am cool with it . And for the record, SuperNova's TvZ is pretty meh . Nestea won twice against him in the last GSL (yeah the same Nestea who struggles A LOT in ZvT and who barely reach a 50% ratio in the match up) and if I remember correctly he complained about his TvZ at IEM Sao Paulo (where he lost 3-1 to Violet) . NesTea being defeated by PuMa and Kas isn't an upset lol. NesTea is far from being a top zerg, except in GSL settings where he is decent. In live events settings he just isn't at the level of PuMa, Kas or other players. Demuslim defeating Nerchio isn't really an upset either, both are around at the same skill level? JRecco taking 3 games from Keen is the same as him taking games off of MKP, TaeJa or Ryung, it should not ever happen. Gets in every code S in existence and reigned since the dark ages of zerg. gets called not a top zerg. Yea that ro8 was decent, not good, just decent... Excuse me? Is the only player to ever win a GSL without dropping a single set and the only one to have ever won 2 GSLs in a row, gets called decent in GSL settings by a random guy on TL. He didn't really won 2 GSLs in a row since Polt won the Super Tournament in between. Winning a GSL without dropping a single set with the weakest road of the history of GSL doesn't tell much about his current skill level. And yeah relative to the GSL players a ro8 result is decent : who remembers the top 8 players of GSL that occured 3 months ago? And yes I said it he does decent in GSL because of the format but in live events he probably won't post the same result as other GSL ro8 players. @Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL. You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous.
Do you have anything against Scottish people? You find them inferior?
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EPT
