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JohnnyREcco also appeared shortly after the patch. But I don'r believe in patch zergs, Ive seen vortiz work hard as well as Slivko and Sortof.
Terrans are generally in the mindset that they have to attack before zerg gets a 2nd base or bewfore they get a third and are obsessed with drop harass and timing attacks, If terran would secure an economic lead (ez pz 3cc mule party) then they would not have trouble on the ladder. We see the pro terran players doing builds that favor economy to harass lately while still balancing the aggressive nature of terran play (e.g. Taeja,Keen or in the case of Kas vs Dimaga.)
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On August 21 2012 02:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:16 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 21 2012 01:06 MorroW wrote:On August 21 2012 01:04 DebtSC2 wrote:On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote:
a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics
a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene
these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics
id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think.
win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have.
when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate
also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play
and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad. Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free. No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene. like i said i think talking about which race is harder to play (not talking about which is harder to win with) is flawed because i have no understanding how hard protoss could be at top top level because i never was there myself to try it out. Ah. While I agree that a player of a certain race will not be able to fully understand the play experience of a player of another race, I don't think that's reason enough to set aside discussion on the particular difficulties players of a given race are having. Certainly it isn't at all productive to say things like: "Lolol, Zerg EZ mode free win can't lose vs. Terran blah blah blah." But I think it is productive for players (particularly top professionals) to say "Well I think TvZ is unfairly difficult for Terran at the moment and not very difficult at all for Zerg, and here's why I think that is the case." Those arguments have been made and countered by professionals of the other races. However, these arguments are all very subjective and situational. Also, professional players are very bias torward their own race and its balance difficulties. The only thing those discussions lead to are threads like these, where people diminish the accomplishments of up and comming players. Personally, I am beyond tired of the balance whining. It takes away from every other aspect of the game and reduces amazing games to "Well it takes a player like MVP to beat a zerg in this day and age". It makes it hard to get excited about the next big tournament when I know it will be followed up by the community diving headlong into another discussion like this one.
+1
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On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that.
Out of the same amount of tries? And didnt jonnyrecco beat Naniwa as well? And Keen played horrindously in that set, did you watch it?
By the way this comparison makes no sense, up and comers are improving players and thus they will keep improving, patch or not. You obviously should compare the results of established pros instead.
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On August 21 2012 01:41 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:28 Talin wrote:On August 21 2012 01:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 21 2012 00:55 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league  They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro. First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg. Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup. Of course you can, and you should. The top Terrans have an issue with the matchup because they find the changes difficult to adapt to. A honest progamer will realize this is an issue with his own play and understanding of the game after the patch. A frustrated one will stir up the pot a little, because it costs him nothing to do so. We've been over this exact same discussions dozens of times for every single race in the last 2 years. I just don't understand how people don't get tired and frustrated by them by now more so than by whatever balance issues they believe exist. =/ It's not necessarily coming purely from a balance point of view. Most would agree that PvZ is largely balanced, but decry the dynamics of the matchup as it stands. Likewise, I don't just blindly agree/disagree but look at the actual arguments presented
I understand what you're saying. I'm a Protoss player myself, and I would gladly see my race changed or straight up nerfed in some ways to increase the level of play, which right now I feel is pretty abhorrent at pro level. I just try to not bring it up or avoid lengthy arguments because I feel they're completely useless and the only thing they accomplish is annoy other people (though at times I cannot help it).
It's not an issue of agreeing and disagreeing, it's an issue of how healthy these discussions are (or aren't). The arguments are shallow and inconclusive, and that isn't necessarily the fault of people discussing them, it's the fault of the subject that is being discussed. Balance is a subject that everybody discusses from a position of ignorance, because it's normally impossible to be aware of all the non-obvious repercussions of any balance tweak.
Your hypothetical Queen change might make sense in the scope that you presented it in, but that is a very limited scope. You cannot possibly imagine how it will interact with every strategic element in the game, let alone the future developments designed specifically to exploit that change, and least of all the breadth of possible Zerg responses to counter such strategies (and responses to those responses, and so forth). Three months from now, you could have a horde of Zergs backed up by every prominent progamer screaming for you to change it back because they don't know how to deal with the builds that arise to exploit it.
So in essence, even though you have some reasoning behind it, the reasoning doesn't go deep enough and you'd be making that change on a hunch. This is true of any change (or proposed / argued change). The only right thing to do is that, unless the game is broken to the point of being completely unplayable for one race, not to touch balance and design with a barge pole.
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On August 21 2012 01:41 Wombat_NI wrote:
To go into a hypothetical situation, let's say the Queens required larva, past the amount of hatches you had or something. You would see players have to make a strategic decision when it came to building defensive Queens versus the economic advantage of squeezing out extra drones. This adds an extra strategic dimension, and a bigger risk/reward balance and thus the players who actually know what they're doing gain bigger advantages over players who aren't as talented.
Two Queens costs 300 minerals + 4 supply, which is ~350 minerals and half a larva. A hatchery costs 350 minerals and a whole larva, counting the price of the drone. So, you could cut two defensive queens for a macro hatchery, allowing additional production at the expense of short-term defense (and possibly creep spread). Similarly, if you use a defensive Roach Warren, you could cut a Queen and delay that Warren for a macro hatch.
There are definitely ways to be greedy. (Even something as simple as dumping your Queen mana into more tumors, instead of holding some back for healing, trades short-term safety for longer-term benefit.)
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On August 21 2012 01:04 DebtSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote:
a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics
a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene
these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics
id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think.
win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have.
when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate
also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play
and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad. Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free. No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene.
Defend his race's advantages, as in wanting Terran to be weak so he can maul face in the TvZ match up he plays?
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On August 21 2012 02:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that. Out of the same amount of tries? And didnt jonnyrecco beat Naniwa as well? And Keen played horrindously in that set, did you watch it? By the way this comparison makes no sense, up and comers are improving players and thus they will keep improving, patch or not. You obviously should compare the results of established pros instead.
Jonnyrecco didn't play spectacular by any stretch of the imagination either...
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Most zerg, even the better one play very far from the skill ceilling anyway.
They all really need to work on army control.
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On August 21 2012 02:22 Noocta wrote:
Most zerg, even the better one play very far from the skill ceilling anyway.
They all really need to work on army control.
They need to start controlling their army in the first place. Zergs army control at ESL was just awful.
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On August 21 2012 02:19 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:11 Shikyo wrote:On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that. Out of the same amount of tries? And didnt jonnyrecco beat Naniwa as well? And Keen played horrindously in that set, did you watch it? By the way this comparison makes no sense, up and comers are improving players and thus they will keep improving, patch or not. You obviously should compare the results of established pros instead. Jonnyrecco didn't play spectacular by any stretch of the imagination either...
You don't need to play spectacular you just need to play solid and good. If they make the mistakes and you don't you'll be in a good position
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people need to get over that jonny beat naniwa, everyone know or should know jonny best mu is vs p and naniwa worth mu is z and also jonny isn't top5 gm for no reason, he was almost gm with terran before he swaped to z. so i wouldnt jump to any forgone conclusion without really watching and seeing his play before down-writing as a noob.
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The question is a bit odd because there is obviously no binary between whether someone is a 'patch zerg' or not. Vortix, Slivko and JonnyREcco are obviously immensely talented players who are up and coming, but the patch has definitely helped them on their way. The same could be said to be true for someone like Symbol who, although he is almost unarguably in the top 2 of zergs, would probably have had somewhat less of a breakthrough without the patch. If a player improves exponentially as his race gets buffed, then both factors are obviously important in determining his level of success.
I would tend to agree that ZvT seems easier for the zerg at this point, but I would also strongly argue that Europe and the foreign scene in general has a lot stronger zerg players than they do terrans, which also contributes to why you don't see Korean zergs lose to foreigner terrans very often.
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Northern Ireland25152 Posts
On August 21 2012 02:16 Talin wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:41 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 21 2012 01:28 Talin wrote:On August 21 2012 01:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 21 2012 00:55 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro. First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg. Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup. Of course you can, and you should. The top Terrans have an issue with the matchup because they find the changes difficult to adapt to. A honest progamer will realize this is an issue with his own play and understanding of the game after the patch. A frustrated one will stir up the pot a little, because it costs him nothing to do so. We've been over this exact same discussions dozens of times for every single race in the last 2 years. I just don't understand how people don't get tired and frustrated by them by now more so than by whatever balance issues they believe exist. =/ It's not necessarily coming purely from a balance point of view. Most would agree that PvZ is largely balanced, but decry the dynamics of the matchup as it stands. Likewise, I don't just blindly agree/disagree but look at the actual arguments presented I understand what you're saying. I'm a Protoss player myself, and I would gladly see my race changed or straight up nerfed in some ways to increase the level of play, which right now I feel is pretty abhorrent at pro level. I just try to not bring it up or avoid lengthy arguments because I feel they're completely useless and the only thing they accomplish is annoy other people (though at times I cannot help it). It's not an issue of agreeing and disagreeing, it's an issue of how healthy these discussions are (or aren't). The arguments are shallow and inconclusive, and that isn't necessarily the fault of people discussing them, it's the fault of the subject that is being discussed. Balance is a subject that everybody discusses from a position of ignorance, because it's normally impossible to be aware of all the non-obvious repercussions of any balance tweak. Your hypothetical Queen change might make sense in the scope that you presented it in, but that is a very limited scope. You cannot possibly imagine how it will interact with every strategic element in the game, let alone the future developments designed specifically to exploit that change, and least of all the breadth of possible Zerg responses to counter such strategies (and responses to those responses, and so forth). Three months from now, you could have a horde of Zergs backed up by every prominent progamer screaming for you to change it back because they don't know how to deal with the builds that arise to exploit it. So in essence, even though you have some reasoning behind it, the reasoning doesn't go deep enough and you'd be making that change on a hunch. This is true of any change (or proposed / argued change). The only right thing to do is that, unless the game is broken to the point of being completely unplayable for one race, not to touch balance and design with a barge pole.
We'll see how the game develops, I was more reacting to the characterisation of all anti-patch folks being balance QQers or biased in some other way against Zergs. Likewise anybody suggesting certain design changes get accused of being BW fanboys. I feel the game of Starcraft 2 has the potential to be better both as a competitive game and as a spectacle, it's not terrible as it is by any means otherwise I wouldn't play or watch it, but if people feel it could be better there's nothing wrong with expressing that view.
As reversion or other changes don't appear forthcoming we'll have to see how the trends in the game develop, should be interesting for sure. Likewise I feel its unfair to bash players who are just starting to post results, it's a bit distasteful to me but it seems to be the new thing on TL
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On August 21 2012 02:11 Shikyo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that. Out of the same amount of tries?
Jinro make round of 16 3 times. He tried in 15 seasons.
Idra made it twice. Tried in 5 seasons.
Huk made it twice. Tried 5 seasons.
Naniwa made it twice, tried 3 seasons.
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I don't know how much the patch changed, objectively. What I do know, is that Zerg players in general do not impress me at all with their play, and these up and comers embody this better than anyone else. Sorry, but there's almost nothing impressive about the way they play, sending their 100+ supply armies to catch a single drop, losing half their main to 8 marines during a battle, constantly a-moving their infestors into opposing armies, and still managing to have 10+ broordlords vortexed even though spreading those out is the only thing needed to win with that army. They don't seem particularly clever with their unit compositions and tactics (like Stephano is) either. Frankly, it's hard for me to quantify what they're actually good at. Scouting and reacting to what they see, I guess?
I wouldn't mind if they were tearing up tournaments with amazing play. But they're just kind of mediocre. Supernova looked way better than Vortix during their series, and still lost. I play Protoss (and PvT is my worst matchup, no less), so I should be relatively impartial when watching TvZ - and it always seems like the Terran has to work really hard and do all kinds of difficult stuff, while the Zerg randomly herpderps around and then a-moves to victory. It's quite painful to watch.
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On August 21 2012 02:36 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:11 Shikyo wrote:On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that. Out of the same amount of tries? Jinro make round of 16 3 times. He tried in 15 seasons. Idra made it twice. Tried in 5 seasons. Huk made it twice. Tried 5 seasons. Naniwa made it twice, tried 3 seasons.
Remember the 0-6 from Naniwa before he starts doing well ?
A lot of foreigner got seeded though, like Naniwa or Idra, they didn't need to run through code B and code A.
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On August 21 2012 02:42 Faust852 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:36 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 02:11 Shikyo wrote:On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that. Out of the same amount of tries? Jinro make round of 16 3 times. He tried in 15 seasons. Idra made it twice. Tried in 5 seasons. Huk made it twice. Tried 5 seasons. Naniwa made it twice, tried 3 seasons. Remember the 0-6 from Naniwa before he starts doing well ? A lot of foreigner got seeded though, like Naniwa or Idra, they didn't need to run through code B and code A.
Pretty sure idra never got seeded in the seasons he made it
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On August 21 2012 01:01 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 00:55 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro. First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg. Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup. It's great when people reduce the argument to ad hominem attacks on players supposed skill levels.
I didnt notice that majority of top terran are complaining(they kind of cant, looking at torunament results etc. or every1 would laugh at them) and beside that i was targeting with my post majority of this forum. Its not top terrans that post on every page "omfggg patch zergs blabla imba", and thats how live report threads of every tournament looks like at the moment.
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On August 21 2012 02:52 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 02:42 Faust852 wrote:On August 21 2012 02:36 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 02:11 Shikyo wrote:On August 21 2012 01:47 Luepert wrote:On August 21 2012 01:00 Protosnake wrote:On August 21 2012 00:52 MyLastSerenade wrote:On August 21 2012 00:44 Protosnake wrote:@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL.
You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous. How is this ridiculous ? What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ? That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo! He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that. Out of the same amount of tries? Jinro make round of 16 3 times. He tried in 15 seasons. Idra made it twice. Tried in 5 seasons. Huk made it twice. Tried 5 seasons. Naniwa made it twice, tried 3 seasons. Remember the 0-6 from Naniwa before he starts doing well ? A lot of foreigner got seeded though, like Naniwa or Idra, they didn't need to run through code B and code A. Pretty sure idra never got seeded in the seasons he made it
Idra was only seeded when he returned to Korea. He qualified for all of the seasons where he made it to the round of 16 until he left Korea.
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EPT
