@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL. You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous.
How is this ridiculous ?
What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ?
That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran
a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
final words i have a feeling zerg will get nerfed in the future, rather than the other 2 races. less because of blizzards data and tournament results and rather that almost the entire community seems to be thinking zerg is "OP". i remember this happened just recently but the subject was about tvp and blizzard made a post and you all thought they were stupid and then you stopped talk about it and moved onto zerg. generally the community is right when almost absolute majority thinks the same, but it doesnt always have to be. this patch was so huge that results of this were almost unavoidable but i see it more as a bump in the road and expect the other races to adapt to the patch eventually.
I don't really see any consideration of the players' overall skill level increasing in the same period of time the patch has been out, which is a huge oversight.
It could be argued that Protoss, and Terran (to a more prominent extent) enjoyed advantages in game balance in between patches, but I don't recall anything like this being brought to bear.
In the end, the only test that truly matters it that of time. If you're legit, you're here to stay. If you don't stick around, well, it doesn't mean you were a "patch player" but it certainly will make spectators wonder.
@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL. You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous.
How is this ridiculous ?
What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ?
That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran
if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo!
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg.
You didn't watch the keen vs jrecco series or you just don't understand what you saw. Keen made lots of mistakes. Any pro level player can beat you if you keep making mistakes no matter how many times you've been to code S.
@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL. You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous.
How is this ridiculous ?
What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ?
That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran
if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo!
He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular
Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg.
Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup.
It's great when people reduce the argument to ad hominem attacks on players supposed skill levels.
On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote: a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad.
Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free.
No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene.
On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote: a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad.
Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free.
No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene.
like i said i think talking about which race is harder to play (not talking about which is harder to win with) is flawed because i have no understanding how hard protoss could be at top top level because i never was there myself to try it out.
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg.
Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup.
It's great when people reduce the argument to ad hominem attacks on players supposed skill levels.
Isn't that a bit of an ironic statement when the term 'patch-zerg' is just the latest ad hom attack from you and your swarm of equal minded buddies on these players? This thread wouldn't be here if it was not for all the 'silver and platinum' players' being busy doing just this.
On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote: a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad.
Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free.
No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene.
like i said i think talking about which race is harder to play (not talking about which is harder to win with) is flawed because i have no understanding how hard protoss could be at top top level because i never was there myself to try it out.
Ah. While I agree that a player of a certain race will not be able to fully understand the play experience of a player of another race, I don't think that's reason enough to set aside discussion on the particular difficulties players of a given race are having.
Certainly it isn't at all productive to say things like: "Lolol, Zerg EZ mode free win can't lose vs. Terran blah blah blah." But I think it is productive for players (particularly top professionals) to say "Well I think TvZ is unfairly difficult for Terran at the moment and not very difficult at all for Zerg, and here's why I think that is the case."
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg.
Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup.
It's great when people reduce the argument to ad hominem attacks on players supposed skill levels.
Isn't that a bit of an ironic statement when the term 'patch-zerg' is just the latest ad hom attack from you and your swarm of equal minded buddies on these players? This thread wouldn't be here if it was not for all the 'silver and platinum' players' being busy doing just this.
I don't attack players I'm unaware of. I'm of the opinion that a player is unknown until he becomes known and thus, the 'patchzerg' tag is often unfairly applied.
I judge games by the play exhibited. I was watching JRecco's games against Keen and both players were pretty sloppy, I felt Recco more so but that's a bit subjective. However what I did see was the exact same pattern pretty much every game, rush to hivetech and try to defend in the midgame.
It's patently clear that the patch has had a big knockon effect, and people aren't just whining because they're not winning, or because games have been going the way that they personally don't enjoy to watch. Some are whining because they feel the patch that made such play possible went too far, it's not that difficult a concept to accept, even if you disagree with their assessment.
The Queen patch, coupled with the overlord speed buff has become a crutch on which Zerg can rush to hive with. When Donraegu says that he feels it went too far/was unnecessary. This trend towards hive rushes also largely bypasses the midgame and ling/bling/muta compositions that the likes of DRG were able to use more effectively than their Zerg peers. As somebody earlier posted, there's not degrees of difference in a hive tech army controlled by DRG, than there is by nearly any other pro zerg. However, there's a world of difference between Donraegu's ling/bling/muta play than almost any other Zerg.
Some of us don't like this trend, we don't have to shit on other players to express it (i.e the 'patch zerg' trend), but equally it's pretty apparent that it's had an effect. There are intelligent posters here from both sides, but equally there are retards who either think it's some kind of karmic justice that Terran is struggling, or that the patch shouldn't matter/doesn't have an effect.
If there's a lategame composition like BL/Infestor that's extremely potent, relatively easy to use and hard to engage, then it should be difficult to obtain. I and others feel this balance between risk/reward has been somewhat skewed, perhaps a bit too far. Also bear in mind that with hivetech coming out earlier and earlier nowadays, Terran's old counters to that lategame, i.e mass ghosts being mixed in, no longer work.
On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote: a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad.
Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free.
No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene.
like i said i think talking about which race is harder to play (not talking about which is harder to win with) is flawed because i have no understanding how hard protoss could be at top top level because i never was there myself to try it out.
Ah. While I agree that a player of a certain race will not be able to fully understand the play experience of a player of another race, I don't think that's reason enough to set aside discussion on the particular difficulties players of a given race are having.
Certainly it isn't at all productive to say things like: "Lolol, Zerg EZ mode free win can't lose vs. Terran blah blah blah." But I think it is productive for players (particularly top professionals) to say "Well I think TvZ is unfairly difficult for Terran at the moment and not very difficult at all for Zerg, and here's why I think that is the case."
Exactly, and there have been posts that make reasoned points that are shut down as QQing or balance whining. It's nice that pros like Morrow still reside on these forums and interact on these kind of issues, nice to see.
In terms of the other race point it's pretty salient as well. I play P and T pretty proficiently but I am terrible with Zerg. This isn't because I am bad, or don't have mechanics but because it's just very strange for me to build either drones, or attacking units. With Protoss and Terran it's a case of building economy, teching and popping out units when you have money, with Zerg it just feels instinctively awkward for me to have to decide when to drone or not, sometimes blindly.
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg.
Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup.
Of course you can, and you should.
The top Terrans have an issue with the matchup because they find the changes difficult to adapt to. A honest progamer will realize this is an issue with his own play and understanding of the game after the patch. A frustrated one will stir up the pot a little, because it costs him nothing to do so.
We've been over this exact same discussions dozens of times for every single race in the last 2 years. I just don't understand how people don't get tired and frustrated by them by now more so than by whatever balance issues they believe exist. =/
On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup.
The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro.
First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg.
Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup.
Of course you can, and you should.
The top Terrans have an issue with the matchup because they find the changes difficult to adapt to. A honest progamer will realize this is an issue with his own play and understanding of the game after the patch. A frustrated one will stir up the pot a little, because it costs him nothing to do so.
We've been over this exact same discussions dozens of times for every single race in the last 2 years. I just don't understand how people don't get tired and frustrated by them by now more so than by whatever balance issues they believe exist. =/
It's not necessarily coming purely from a balance point of view. Most would agree that PvZ is largely balanced, but decry the dynamics of the matchup as it stands. Likewise, I don't just blindly agree/disagree but look at the actual arguments presented
This is an old video, and it's Idra being Idra, but I feel it's relevant here
In short, he's saying Zerg need either better scouting information, or an ability to defend better blindly. The Queen/Overlord speed buff pretty much improved both of those, with no real corresponding downsides.
Likewise, when discussing the mothership core, I was one who, despite playing Protoss wasn't exactly happy with it. It appears from a design perspective, with that deathcannon ability it has, to allow blind greedy play and reduce smart reactive aggression.
To go into a hypothetical situation, let's say the Queens required larva, past the amount of hatches you had or something. You would see players have to make a strategic decision when it came to building defensive Queens versus the economic advantage of squeezing out extra drones. This adds an extra strategic dimension, and a bigger risk/reward balance and thus the players who actually know what they're doing gain bigger advantages over players who aren't as talented.
@Protosnake : Keen isn't as good as TaeJa or MKP that's not the problem LOL. You should not need TaeJa or MKP to crush a new GM scottish zerg player -;-, a 4-3 vs Keen is almost ridiculous.
How is this ridiculous ?
What kind of results has keen made recently that should made him unbeatable against Jonnyrecco ?
That's one of the problem in your post, you're implying that Nestea isnt a top Zerg, but Yet keen is somehow still a top terran
if i remember correctly he made Code S at least 1 time this year?!? keen is one of the better terrans, not as good as MVP, MKP or Taeja, but if jonnyrecco would have won that, that would be a huge upset imo!
He made the Ro16 once this year, nothing spectacular
Also, as pointed out above, people that didnt watch the serie shouldnt comment on it. Keen litteraly threw games against Jonnyrecco, yet he still won the whole thing
Round of 16 Code S IS spectacular for a foreigner. Only Jinro, Idra, Huk, an Naniwa have ever achieved that.
On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote: a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
final words i have a feeling zerg will get nerfed in the future, rather than the other 2 races. less because of blizzards data and tournament results and rather that almost the entire community seems to be thinking zerg is "OP". i remember this happened just recently but the subject was about tvp and blizzard made a post and you all thought they were stupid and then you stopped talk about it and moved onto zerg. generally the community is right when almost absolute majority thinks the same, but it doesnt always have to be. this patch was so huge that results of this were almost unavoidable but i see it more as a bump in the road and expect the other races to adapt to the patch eventually.
Agree completely, except for the well known part. I don't follow the pro scene enough to be up to date on up and coming players.
Especially the judging of up and coming players part is noteworthy. I was very annoyed with people saying Keen should not lose to johnnyrecco (or how you write it) and his loss is indicative of balance. The whole point of up and coming players is that they're on the rise, so occasionally, an upset is to be expected.
On August 20 2012 23:43 BadgerBadger8264 wrote: You can't just look at win rates, they don't tell the whole story. This is because you're only looking at a select few winrates from televised matches, not at their global win rates (counting qualifiers and open brackets, that are typically not broadcast).
VortiX might have a similar win rate currently to what he had before, but the quality of opponents he's playing against has massively changed because he's suddenly qualifying for big tournaments with big name players instead of only playing in small scale tournaments.
Lets take a look at some tournaments VortiX played pre-patch
Can you honestly say you know most of these players, or even if you do, can you honestly say that these players are world class players? Having a score of 55% win rate against these is not impressive for a professional player.
Now lets take a look at the opponents he's playing AFTER the patch.
The difference between quality of players is insane, he went from barely coming out ahead against semi pro's to doing above average against top tier Koreans and foreigners. "Mysteriously" after the patch, obviously. Even looking at tournament wins this should be obvious. He has won 5 tournaments since patch 1.4.2, that is, he has won 5 tournaments in 2 months. Compared to his previous record of winning about 1 tournament every 2 months, going to winning 5 tournaments in 2 months is quite a substantial difference. Don't let win rates fool you. Instead, look at who they are winning against.
The same basically applies to all of the other patch zergs, however, doing this for just one was enough work as it was. Don't be fooled by win rates, because they do not tell the whole story.
While he wins against way better players, those people are also Zerg, prepatch VortiX lost against people like DIMAGA, bly and syz, while after the patch he wins against people like Golden, darkforce and Revival with ease. While the patch gave him a boost for sure ( obviously, since his race got buffed) he also improved as a player.
just saying, lucifron also improved and was smashing face a few weeks before his brother, this leads me to the conclusion that luficfron and vortix just really know how to get better and practice
On August 21 2012 00:49 MorroW wrote: a change in this game benefits the one who practice a lot at that point, also a buff should help statistics a patch so major such as this queen+overlord buff is of course going to push every zerg out there forward a bit, progamers especially (since they practice so many hours a day to figure out the new things they can change up their builds and plays)
so looking at an active progamers stats before patch and after patch should of course bring better results for them, their race did after all get better than before
the new zergs your talking about were here before, and by no means no-name in the proscene these "no names" might be mediocre to you, vortix sortof slivko etc. but in the european progamer scene they have been up and coming for at least a half year and been considered within the top10 best zergs in eu (about~ not exact) for at least 3 months now, prior to the patch
i dont know the exact dates when forge upgrades and immortals got buffed, but its obvious they helped protosses around the world and were more noticable on hard working protoss players, such as bischu, titan, feast, bling etc.
gsl is more reliable than foreigner events in terms of statistics id say statistics from gsl are more reliable than looking at foreigner events where half of the player pool is very nervous, generally not that good or simply jetlagged. those are factors that scew foreigner lan events results more than you'd think. win rates of gsl season 1, 2 and 3 follows tvz winratio (map score) of 52.8%, 48,7% and 48,8%. i dont know when exactly the patch came between these 3 seasons but it did have less impact than we all thought it would have. when the patch just came i thought id never lose a zvt again, i was wrong
judging up and coming player stats when looking at a patch is not accurate also i think its pretty flawed to look at a single up and coming players results, simply because they generally face harder opponents the stronger they are as players. i for example used to play a ton of weekly cups and was at around 70% winratio for a very long time, then i stopped doing that and almost exclusively played big lan events and online tournaments and dropped to the 60% range
lets not discuss which race is harder to play and i think as some do, talking about balance in terms of which race is harder to play is just pretty retarded. there are things that make my race etc hard that people who arent on my level wouldnt understand what im going through. thats why i generally dont talk about this since i dont know how actually hard protoss is to play at the highest levels. all races have different things which makes it difficult, they dont all have to be the same
Why shouldn't we talk about which race is harder to play, especially when it harms the play experience of a significant number of players? When Zerg was considered 'harder to play' (i.e. were extremely underpowered) it wasn't an issue at the top level (GSL,) but was a massive issue everywhere else. Zerg had to outclass their opponents to have a chance at winning, and so, almost no one played Zerg outside of Korea. It's the exact same problem that Terran is having right now. Terran players must train harder than Zerg/Protoss players in order to reach the same level of efficacy. That's just bad.
Not only that, but having large skill gaps between races is just piss poor game design. Zerg shouldn't have a virtually microless army while Terran has an army with many, many units that scale extremely well with micro. It leads to problems like, well, having a foreigner scene that is virtually terran-free.
No offense intended MorroW but it seems like you are defending your race's current advantages, rather than trying to contribute to a discussion on the issues it currently causes in the foreigner scene.
like i said i think talking about which race is harder to play (not talking about which is harder to win with) is flawed because i have no understanding how hard protoss could be at top top level because i never was there myself to try it out.
Ah. While I agree that a player of a certain race will not be able to fully understand the play experience of a player of another race, I don't think that's reason enough to set aside discussion on the particular difficulties players of a given race are having.
Certainly it isn't at all productive to say things like: "Lolol, Zerg EZ mode free win can't lose vs. Terran blah blah blah." But I think it is productive for players (particularly top professionals) to say "Well I think TvZ is unfairly difficult for Terran at the moment and not very difficult at all for Zerg, and here's why I think that is the case."
Those arguments have been made and countered by professionals of the other races. However, these arguments are all very subjective and situational. Also, professional players are very bias torward their own race and its balance difficulties. The only thing those discussions lead to are threads like these, where people diminish the accomplishments of up and comming players.
Personally, I am beyond tired of the balance whining. It takes away from every other aspect of the game and reduces amazing games to "Well it takes a player like MVP to beat a zerg in this day and age". It makes it hard to get excited about the next big tournament when I know it will be followed up by the community diving headlong into another discussion like this one.
EPT
They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro. 
