|
On August 21 2012 03:02 balosan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 01:01 Wombat_NI wrote:On August 21 2012 00:55 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 00:08 AzoriuS wrote: Questioning someones success because u have problems with zergs and give them a title "patchzergs". I thought u will add Nerchio too and ashame yourself. If zerg is so op then tell me wheres Idra idol of teamliquid, wheres TLO, Sheth, Ret ? They all play zergs even prepatch and they are owned by koreans in every matchup. The most funny thing are players who whine and make some "patchzergs" names arent even in masters league  They struggle in diamond, plat,gold or even worse but they talk alot about balance instead of improving theirs macro. Balance is the problem in grandmaster/high master elo. Your only enemy dear whiners is macro. First post i completly agree with, it just makes me laugh when all this platinum and silver players are whining on teamliquid and posting 1000x posts how its impossible to beat zerg. Oh yeah and i forgot how every1 is suposed to loose when playing against korean or he is a patchzerg. Ok, but when even the top Terrans feel there's an issue with the matchup we should disregard them too? You can't castigate 'all the silver and platinum' players for having their opinion, and also disregard what top Terrans believe regarding the matchup. It's great when people reduce the argument to ad hominem attacks on players supposed skill levels. I didnt notice that majority of top terran are complaining(they kind of cant, looking at torunament results etc. or every1 would laugh at them) and beside that i was targeting with my post majority of this forum. Its not top terrans that post on every page "omfggg patch zergs blabla imba", and thats how live report threads of every tournament looks like at the moment.
This is true. The only complaints you see from professional terrans are outbursts of frustration on twitter right after a match saying “Zerg IMBA”. Most of them say that the match up is hard and discuss the holes they see in the current builds. But at the end of the day, I have not seen a single terran that is worth talking about complain the match up is totally broken.
After all, while we are all doing this, MVP is practicing.
|
Axiom: If the last balance update in truth is the reason these zergs made it to the top, one would assume high winrates in especially TvZ and possibly PvZ (some would argue that the overlord change made it easier for zerg to be greedy in this matchup as well) while their ZvZ winrates dropped off.
Why? Well we can safely assume that the balance in ZvZ was not affected by this or any previous patch, and while getting further in tournaments, they will now face the better pre-patch zergs. If these zergs in truth got to where they are because of the patch, they should lose more of these matches.
How does your theory respond to the claim: "Post patch ZvZ win rates may not drop off since they could be defeating other patchzergs."?
|
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame.
|
On August 20 2012 20:38 {ToT}ColmA wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:20 grush57 wrote:
Come on man u come up with this new fancy term and theory and then u disprove it in the same post.
User was temp banned for this post. the phrase has been heavily used in the wc3 community, yea the wc3 community was/is retarded
thanks for the useless post, you are retarded.
its kinda obvious that ZvT winrate should increase for the zerg due to the buff. its interesting that ZvP dropped possibly because increased preparation for zerg players from protoss. its hard to argue that the patch zerg phenomenon would lead to lower zerg winrates for these guys since they seem to be the best euro zergs anyways. technically their winrate should stay about the same. and if there is no phenomeon, their ZvZ winrate should go up slightly to show that they are indeed improving.
User was warned for this post
|
On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame.
I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better.
|
On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better.
People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always.
|
On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better.
People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not.
Agreed. But that would require a lot of effort on blizzard's part (and by a lot, i mean massive changes). So i guess we already know what to expect.
|
On August 21 2012 03:35 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better. People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always.
Yea and looking at HotS new untis thats also blizzards idea, warhound + tank hellions are a bit more a-movie and zerg gets viper(caster = micro intensive) + siege unit (positioning), protoss is getting harassment which requires some mico. Not sure how it will work out but at least they are aiming in good direction ^^.
|
I don't think this definitively proves anything, but it certainly is a good compilation of data. Obviously, Zergs are going to do better after a patch that buffs them, that is given. I don't think the patch took someone from trash to top-tier, though.
$0.02
|
After the patch i switched to zerg cause its so much easier to play with lol. Patch Zergs do exist, good write up!!
|
This is quite interesting. http://www.gaming-insight.de/sc2/2890
On August 21 2012 03:46 NaEjeOn88 wrote:
After the patch i switched to zerg cause its so much easier to play with lol. Patch Zergs do exist, good write up!!
So did i.
|
On August 21 2012 03:35 Zarahtra wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better. People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always.
Terran is the most micro intensive race ?
|
On August 21 2012 03:46 Yaki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:35 Zarahtra wrote:On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better. People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always. Terran is the most micro intensive race ?
Yes, because you can't trade efficiently if you don't micro hard, like actually zerg and to a lesser extent protoss can.
|
On August 21 2012 03:46 Yaki wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:35 Zarahtra wrote:On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better. People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always. Terran is the most micro intensive race ?
Terran mainly involves relatively more movement based micro (Marines, Marauders, Medivac, Vikings, setting up right rallies, dropping, Hellions/Banshees move-kite). When playing mech, it becomes more positioning based though.
Protoss involves relatively more casting based micro (Sentry FF/GS, Stalker Blink, HT storm/feedbacks, warping in reinforcements) It does feel easier for me, which is why I used to main protoss.
Zerg involves relatively more positioning/map awareness micro (Keeping them Ovies pooping/floating, being active with mutas without them flying into turrets, positioning Zerglings/Roaches/Banes/Ultras for surrounds, moving Broods/Queens in positions to fight the main army of opponent, keeping creep spread going)
Just different kind of micro imo. For me I find Terran micro (marine splitting) to be hard.
|
I wouldn't call them "patch zergs", but I do think zerg has gotten less volatile since the patch and thereby safer in a tournament format. With the buffed queen and the faster OL for scouting, zerg is much less vulnerable to early timing attacks/cheese, and zerg players can safely take earlier expansions and go for the broodlord/infestor end game.
I think a lot of terran/protoss based their vs Z on the fact that zerg was inherently susceptible to early aggression/threat, and now they need to find other ways to play. Maybe some balancing is needed, but it's to early to tell imho.
|
On August 21 2012 04:01 desarrisc wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 03:46 Yaki wrote:On August 21 2012 03:35 Zarahtra wrote:On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better. People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always. Terran is the most micro intensive race ? Terran mainly involves relatively more movement based micro (Marines, Marauders, Medivac, Vikings, setting up right rallies, dropping, Hellions/Banshees move-kite). When playing mech, it becomes more positioning based though. Protoss involves relatively more casting based micro (Sentry FF/GS, Stalker Blink, HT storm/feedbacks, warping in reinforcements) It does feel easier for me, which is why I used to main protoss. Zerg involves relatively more positioning/map awareness micro (Keeping them Ovies pooping/floating, being active with mutas without them flying into turrets, positioning Zerglings/Roaches/Banes/Ultras for surrounds, moving Broods/Queens in positions to fight the main army of opponent, keeping creep spread going) Just different kind of micro imo. For me I find Terran micro (marine splitting) to be hard.
Wait, you are telling me that all three races require different skill sets to play effectively and not all of them require studder-stepping?
|
On August 21 2012 04:27 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On August 21 2012 04:01 desarrisc wrote:On August 21 2012 03:46 Yaki wrote:On August 21 2012 03:35 Zarahtra wrote:On August 21 2012 03:23 balosan wrote:On August 21 2012 03:14 Thurken wrote:
The results in high level korean tournaments are really different than that, showing that a race is not imba at the moment, but more a metagame. I dont think its about metagame, in my opinion most of this "terrans are doing fine in korea and bad outside" has to do with game design. Terran more micro intensive and requires more skill on high level then other races so only very top of terrans will do well. I dont think there is a patch that can fix it, we need to wait for add ons and hope that blizzard give terrans some less micro intesive units so weaker terran can do better. People really need to stop asking Blizzard to lower the skill ceiling of terran. The other 2 races should rather be made as micro intesive, that way the better player would win more often than not. Right now I feel TvT and ZvZ(after the queen buff) are really the only 2 MUs where the better player wins almost always. Terran is the most micro intensive race ? Terran mainly involves relatively more movement based micro (Marines, Marauders, Medivac, Vikings, setting up right rallies, dropping, Hellions/Banshees move-kite). When playing mech, it becomes more positioning based though. Protoss involves relatively more casting based micro (Sentry FF/GS, Stalker Blink, HT storm/feedbacks, warping in reinforcements) It does feel easier for me, which is why I used to main protoss. Zerg involves relatively more positioning/map awareness micro (Keeping them Ovies pooping/floating, being active with mutas without them flying into turrets, positioning Zerglings/Roaches/Banes/Ultras for surrounds, moving Broods/Queens in positions to fight the main army of opponent, keeping creep spread going) Just different kind of micro imo. For me I find Terran micro (marine splitting) to be hard. Wait, you are telling me that all three races require different skill sets to play effectively and not all of them require studder-stepping?
Terran need to stutter step waayyy more than the others races, Split and kitt vs gling baneling, kitting vs Charlots, etc..
|
On August 20 2012 09:18 nkr wrote:
Axiom: If the last balance update in truth is the reason these zergs made it to the top, one would assume high winrates in especially TvZ and possibly PvZ (some would argue that the overlord change made it easier for zerg to be greedy in this matchup as well) while their ZvZ winrates dropped off.
Why? Well we can safely assume that the balance in ZvZ was not affected by this or any previous patch, and while getting further in tournaments, they will now face the better pre-patch zergs. If these zergs in truth got to where they are because of the patch, they should lose more of these matches.
This is incredibly flawed in a number of ways. Assuming patchzergs exist as zergs who only are succeeding because of the patch...
1) Overall balance is ZvZ is not affected by patches but a particularly players style of ZvZ is. Example: Someone who goes hatch first more often benefited from the queen range more than someone who goes for early ling aggression.
2) There's no clear cut way to define "better pre-patch zergs" if these players weren't making it deep into tournaments to test their ZvZ. Furthermore, better is a subjective term particularly in the ZvZ matchup.
3) If patchzergs get to where they are because of the patch, they'll be competing with other patchzergs AND pre-patch zergs so their winrate won't necessarily change depending on who they hit in the tournament.
This is to say nothing of your small sample size. Your "safe assumptions" are far from safe and show you're really just trying to retaliate against people who use the term patchzerg.
|
On August 21 2012 05:07 R3DT1D3 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 20 2012 09:18 nkr wrote:
Axiom: If the last balance update in truth is the reason these zergs made it to the top, one would assume high winrates in especially TvZ and possibly PvZ (some would argue that the overlord change made it easier for zerg to be greedy in this matchup as well) while their ZvZ winrates dropped off.
Why? Well we can safely assume that the balance in ZvZ was not affected by this or any previous patch, and while getting further in tournaments, they will now face the better pre-patch zergs. If these zergs in truth got to where they are because of the patch, they should lose more of these matches. This is incredibly flawed in a number of ways. Assuming patchzergs exist as zergs who only are succeeding because of the patch... 1) Overall balance is ZvZ is not affected by patches but a particularly players style of ZvZ is. Example: Someone who goes hatch first more often benefited from the queen range more than someone who goes for early ling aggression. 2) There's no clear cut way to define "better pre-patch zergs" if these players weren't making it deep into tournaments to test their ZvZ. Furthermore, better is a subjective term particularly in the ZvZ matchup. 3) If patchzergs get to where they are because of the patch, they'll be competing with other patchzergs AND pre-patch zergs so their winrate won't necessarily change depending on who they hit in the tournament. This is to say nothing of your small sample size. Your "safe assumptions" are far from safe and show you're really just trying to retaliate against people who use the term patchzerg.
I was gonna say the same thing. Number 1 was especially annoying.
|
love threads like this and meanwhile P has the highest winrates (not saying P is imba) without anybody noticing :-D
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
