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On August 22 2012 13:42 ohampatu wrote:
lol. this thread still kicking.
sample size too small
You still miss what the LR threads are complaining about. We are watching the games, and watching mechanically bad players push MVP (among others) to the limit. Watching Vortix 1a his whole army from the the east side of the map to the west over and over to deal with a single marine drop is what is making people mad. Its stuff like that. The patch let zergs get to end game without having any issues, where they can compete on an even ground against better opponents.
Now maybe its an issue with infestor/brood being too easy to execute. But we call them 'patchzergs' because at least before the patch, you needed skill to get to infestor/brood. Infestor buff followed by queen buff gives Zergs their free ez mode lategame comp. Thats the issue.
If you can give me a legitmate reason not to call them patchzergs (cause your stats, while small, actually prove patchzergs exist. Your zvz argument is flawed), then i'll stop. But until they do the small things that separate a good player from a bad player, the flames wont stop. Tell me how you can defend them with so many examples like the one I gave above. Are we watching the same games?
To some extent this is actually a good point, but it doesn't change the fact that all three of these Zergs' results had already begun to significantly improve before the patch hit. Also, sLivko is legitimately kickass and obviously has a level of skill comprable to top foreigners of the other two races.
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Your results makes no sense. All three of them had drastically improved zvt, vortix even went up 14%. Do you understand how huge 14% is? This is clearly due to the patch.
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On August 22 2012 14:05 kochanfe wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 13:42 ohampatu wrote:
lol. this thread still kicking.
sample size too small
You still miss what the LR threads are complaining about. We are watching the games, and watching mechanically bad players push MVP (among others) to the limit. Watching Vortix 1a his whole army from the the east side of the map to the west over and over to deal with a single marine drop is what is making people mad. Its stuff like that. The patch let zergs get to end game without having any issues, where they can compete on an even ground against better opponents.
Now maybe its an issue with infestor/brood being too easy to execute. But we call them 'patchzergs' because at least before the patch, you needed skill to get to infestor/brood. Infestor buff followed by queen buff gives Zergs their free ez mode lategame comp. Thats the issue.
If you can give me a legitmate reason not to call them patchzergs (cause your stats, while small, actually prove patchzergs exist. Your zvz argument is flawed), then i'll stop. But until they do the small things that separate a good player from a bad player, the flames wont stop. Tell me how you can defend them with so many examples like the one I gave above. Are we watching the same games? To some extent this is actually a good point, but it doesn't change the fact that all three of these Zergs' results had already begun to significantly improve before the patch hit. Also, sLivko is legitimately kickass and obviously has a level of skill comprable to top foreigners of the other two races.
yea im not picking and choosing names of who are and aren't, i just feel that people are missing what we are complaining about. you see zergs getting to points in the game (aka lategame) that they couldn't before (not necessarily these zergs in the op either), because zergs defenders advantage is soo good at this point.
From what I see, zergs who can't do the little things that make the good zergs pro, are now making it to a point in the game where the small things dont matter as much. MVP won because he abused their mechanics, but alot of these zergs aren't getting abused early game as much because terrans/protoss are afraid to attack into a zergs defenses. I dont even think its the queen, i think its a combination of a lot of things from the last two patches. But im bordering on calling infestor/brood op so i should prolly stop
edit: and im sorry the post i made that the above user quoted used vortex as an example, he may be the next huge star, it was just an example from recent games/mistakes that we saw
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it's not just the patches but the ridiculously gigantic maps that are being played nowadays
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On August 22 2012 14:48 akalarry wrote:
it's not just the patches but the ridiculously gigantic maps that are being played nowadays
Big maps don't even necessarily favor zerg.... Calm before the storm is the biggest map that has been played competitively in 1v1, and it wasn't zerg favored against terran or protoss.
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On August 22 2012 14:52 goswser wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 14:48 akalarry wrote:
it's not just the patches but the ridiculously gigantic maps that are being played nowadays Big maps don't even necessarily favor zerg.... Calm before the storm is the biggest map that has been played competitively in 1v1, and it wasn't zerg favored against terran or protoss.
Should also mention that map is really easy to take and protect 3 bases, and much harder to take endgame bases 4+.
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I actually was very sceptical about this patchzerg thing and was just thinking that It's just people complaining about nothing, but then I've started noticing weird things, like mostly zergs are now on tournament tables, some of my friends that play ladder as zerg suddenly skyrocketed from gold to diamond in the matter of weeks, some Pro-Zerg players, that I've always thought was mediocre suddenly became top tier players, hell I didn't even know who VortiX was, until his Empire All-Kill in IPL TAC.
And now Nerchio, VortiX, Slivko, Bly and many others are on the same level of play as MVP, MC, MKP, MMA.
I really love all those "new" zerg players, but something strange is happening, that's for sure.
Althought there are no direct proofs, and winrates are still ~50% I'm sure that Patchzergs do exist.
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On August 22 2012 16:20 Rimak wrote:
I actually was very sceptical about this patchzerg thing and was just thinking that It's just people complaining about nothing, but then I've started noticing weird things, like mostly zergs are now on tournament tables, some of my friends that play ladder as zerg suddenly skyrocketed from gold to diamond in the matter of weeks, some Pro-Zerg players, that I've always thought was mediocre suddenly became top tier players, hell I didn't even know who VortiX was, until his Empire All-Kill in IPL TAC.
And now Nerchio, VortiX, Slivko, Bly and many others are on the same level of play as MVP, MC, MKP, MMA.
I really love all those "new" zerg players, but something strange is happening, that's for sure.
Althought there are no direct proofs, and winrates are still ~50% I'm sure that Patchzergs do exist.
these are the kinda posts we dont want
i would recommend to read my last two posts
nerchio, slivko, and bly have been known for quite a while, and thats coming from the dude who just posted two wall of texts explaining how patchzergs exist
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On August 22 2012 16:20 Rimak wrote:
I actually was very sceptical about this patchzerg thing and was just thinking that It's just people complaining about nothing, but then I've started noticing weird things, like mostly zergs are now on tournament tables, some of my friends that play ladder as zerg suddenly skyrocketed from gold to diamond in the matter of weeks, some Pro-Zerg players, that I've always thought was mediocre suddenly became top tier players, hell I didn't even know who VortiX was, until his Empire All-Kill in IPL TAC.
And now Nerchio, VortiX, Slivko, Bly and many others are on the same level of play as MVP, MC, MKP, MMA.
I really love all those "new" zerg players, but something strange is happening, that's for sure.
Althought there are no direct proofs, and winrates are still ~50% I'm sure that Patchzergs do exist.
In what universe is Nerchio,slivko or Bly "new" zergs?
hell, nerchio is one of the strongest foreigners in the scene, has been for quite some time.
And by watching VortiX play you can see the patch itself doesn't help him much really, he doesn't even use queens for defence early game..
What does help him is probably the metagame shift, that now more often gets to the lategame, where his broodlord pushes really shine. his earlygame looks really weak compared to other zergs tho, maybe if terrans punished that more he wouldn't look so strong.
And i can guarantee you that the gold zergs becoming diamond has nothing to do with the patch, seeing as there are alot less terrans on ladder compared to Z players and P players, and the patch change didn't really affect those matchups very much.
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Demonstrating that X doesn't prove Y doesn't disprove Y. This post is worthless.
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On August 22 2012 16:28 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:20 Rimak wrote:
I actually was very sceptical about this patchzerg thing and was just thinking that It's just people complaining about nothing, but then I've started noticing weird things, like mostly zergs are now on tournament tables, some of my friends that play ladder as zerg suddenly skyrocketed from gold to diamond in the matter of weeks, some Pro-Zerg players, that I've always thought was mediocre suddenly became top tier players, hell I didn't even know who VortiX was, until his Empire All-Kill in IPL TAC.
And now Nerchio, VortiX, Slivko, Bly and many others are on the same level of play as MVP, MC, MKP, MMA.
I really love all those "new" zerg players, but something strange is happening, that's for sure.
Althought there are no direct proofs, and winrates are still ~50% I'm sure that Patchzergs do exist. these are the kinda posts we dont want i would recommend to read my last two posts nerchio, slivko, and bly have been known for quite a while, and thats coming from the dude who just posted two wall of texts explaining how patchzergs exist
I will read those ASAP, ty.
On August 22 2012 16:39 Mephtral wrote:Show nested quote +On August 22 2012 16:20 Rimak wrote:
I actually was very sceptical about this patchzerg thing and was just thinking that It's just people complaining about nothing, but then I've started noticing weird things, like mostly zergs are now on tournament tables, some of my friends that play ladder as zerg suddenly skyrocketed from gold to diamond in the matter of weeks, some Pro-Zerg players, that I've always thought was mediocre suddenly became top tier players, hell I didn't even know who VortiX was, until his Empire All-Kill in IPL TAC.
And now Nerchio, VortiX, Slivko, Bly and many others are on the same level of play as MVP, MC, MKP, MMA.
I really love all those "new" zerg players, but something strange is happening, that's for sure.
Althought there are no direct proofs, and winrates are still ~50% I'm sure that Patchzergs do exist. In what universe is Nerchio,slivko or Bly "new" zergs? hell, nerchio is one of the strongest foreigners in the scene, has been for quite some time. And by watching VortiX play you can see the patch itself doesn't help him much really, he doesn't even use queens for defence early game.. What does help him is probably the metagame shift, that now more often gets to the lategame, where his broodlord pushes really shine. his earlygame looks really weak compared to other zergs tho, maybe if terrans punished that more he wouldn't look so strong. And i can guarantee you that the gold zergs becoming diamond has nothing to do with the patch, seeing as there are alot less terrans on ladder compared to Z players and P players, and the patch change didn't really affect those matchups very much.
I'm not saying they are NEW zergs, I'm just saying, that they play really strong right now, and i mean STRONG.
And to be clear I'm not saying that it is BAD.
Even more I'm really enjoing games played by VortiX and I've been Slivko's fan long before he became really good.
The point was that I've started noticing more and more foreign zergs getting to the same level as korean pro's, and i find it kind of odd.
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I believe in patchzergs.. Destiny was one until they nerfed the infestor some months back. But yea, I can spot a patch zerg from a mile away
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This whole Patch Zerg term just keeps making me think of Robin Williams in the movie Patch Adams with that ridiculous red clown nose...
While I'm inclined to say that Patch Zergs exist, the examples being used in this thread are laughable. Vortix was pretty consistent in top EU GM before the patch, Nerchio has been a beast forever and Slivko made his name long before the patch.
I have to agree with ohampatu, watching recent TvZs seems more telling than win percentages. Once Zerg hits the infestor/BL deathball they can make so many mistakes while Terran has such a small margin for error. Gone are the days of ling/bling/muta all game long, and Zerg no longer needs to rely on multiple remaxes in the late game. With somewhat decent infestor usage and no severe lapses in BroodLord control Zerg suddenly has a highly cost effective late game army. Terran is now the race that needs to be constantly replenishing cheep units.
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PatchZergs™ are terrifying but not as terrifying as TerranQQ™
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In their tongue, he is Patchakiin.
Patch-born.
Nice article, though. You didn't go into full detail with phi square checks and so on, but you have a reasonable demonstration here. The real killer of the patchzerg idea, though, is the fact that there are no breakout Zergs in Korea, where Hellion play was the biggest and the Queen buff hurt the most. All the Zergs we see doing well were solid prior to the patch or are goddamn Broodwar legends.
That said, Terran especially seems to be hurting right now, although I think it might just be a metagame shift, as lategame strategies like mass Orbital in TvP and Sky Terran transitions in TvZ come to the fore. If those strategies end up crashing and burning, then T might need a patch. But I'd like to see these strategies fully tested before any patching, because what would suck most is to see them never be fully developed because Blizzard gave the Marine 7 damage. They're really cool builds.
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The 1A syndrome... Moving the whole army to fight a single drop is ONLY an error if the enemy actually exploits it... If the Terran attacks 2-3 Places at once the Zerg pays for sending his whole army to one place, if the Terran is only attacking one place at a time sending your whole army is actually the best answer possible.
Don't blame the Zergs for getting away with this... No Patch or anything has something to do with this. If there is only 1 Place to defend at one time it's actually "smart" to take your whole army to defend it because you will get rid of it faster while using less units lost.
Zergs should pay for moving their whole army to defend against some small drop.. But the Terran/Protoss/Whoever has to make them pay....
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On August 22 2012 17:30 Velr wrote:
The 1A syndrome... Moving the whole army to fight a single drop is ONLY an error if the enemy actually exploits it... If the Terran attacks 2-3 Places at once the Zerg pays for sending his whole army to one place, if the Terran is only attacking one place at a time sending your whole army is actually the best answer possible.
Don't blame the Zergs for getting away with this... No Patch or anything has something to do with this. If there is only 1 Place to defend at one time it's actually "smart" to take your whole army to defend it because you will get rid of it faster while using less units lost.
Zergs should pay for moving their whole army to defend against some small drop.. But the Terran/Protoss/Whoever has to make them pay....
Captain obvious here didn't watch Mvp's games. That's why we know they are not good, as they were moving one big army around to try to deal with multi-drops. Surprise surprise, it didn't end up working well, although they somehow still made the games look close.
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On August 22 2012 17:22 SupLilSon wrote:
This whole Patch Zerg term just keeps making me think of Robin Williams in the movie Patch Adams with that ridiculous red clown nose...
While I'm inclined to say that Patch Zergs exist, the examples being used in this thread are laughable. Vortix was pretty consistent in top EU GM before the patch, Nerchio has been a beast forever and Slivko made his name long before the patch.
I have to agree with ohampatu, watching recent TvZs seems more telling than win percentages. Once Zerg hits the infestor/BL deathball they can make so many mistakes while Terran has such a small margin for error. Gone are the days of ling/bling/muta all game long, and Zerg no longer needs to rely on multiple remaxes in the late game. With somewhat decent infestor usage and no severe lapses in BroodLord control Zerg suddenly has a highly cost effective late game army. Terran is now the race that needs to be constantly replenishing cheep units.
Yeah, I don't like the metagame. Most zergs realise that once they have that deathball it's very hard for terran to win the game. What happens is that they turtle forever on ling/bling/roach/infestor untill they have that composition. It's a terrible style to watch but fairly succesful.
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Patchforeigners:
Patchforeigner is a term used to describe the sudden appearance of a foreigner in the international scene. Common traits are overhype, playing either protoss or zerg, doing much better everytime a patch hits that affects their race positively, being able to take games off koreans that are undoubtedly better in every aspect of the game coupled with falling off as soon as certain balance issues are remedied and doing the best broodlord pushes [tasteless] has ever seen in his life. While it is obvious that the spontaneous raise in skill of said patchforeigner is not coincidental, the common fanboy refuses to believe that there is any link between balance issues and the foreign community doing well.
As opposed to ordinary foreigners who only get recogntion for nationality and rude behavior and fail to get the foreign community's hopes up patchforeigners still manage to do so by looking promising - until everyone realizes what race they play.
It usually takes an Mvp to make them realize.
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On August 22 2012 17:30 Velr wrote:
The 1A syndrome... Moving the whole army to fight a single drop is ONLY an error if the enemy actually exploits it... If the Terran attacks 2-3 Places at once the Zerg pays for sending his whole army to one place, if the Terran is only attacking one place at a time sending your whole army is actually the best answer possible.
Don't blame the Zergs for getting away with this... No Patch or anything has something to do with this. If there is only 1 Place to defend at one time it's actually "smart" to take your whole army to defend it because you will get rid of it faster while using less units lost.
Zergs should pay for moving their whole army to defend against some small drop.. But the Terran/Protoss/Whoever has to make them pay....
Hell, we saw 'the best protoss in the world', Seed, do it yesterday against Polt..
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EPT
