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On January 02 2006 19:34 mitsy wrote:
provided that you try to hide it and remain plausibly legit, i think hacking helps you improve more quickly. it's easier than watching reps after a game. you can learn the timing, the options, what to "scout" for more quickly and more precisely.
there is a myth that hacking "takes no skill" or "ruins your skill." i think we have found that to not be the case. many of the strongest players became strong while hacking (feel free to name names). many more probably just won't admit to this.
now if you don't try to hide it at all, sure it's stupid. but if you hide it well enough that you don't get caught, i think you're basically building your skills faster than someone who doesn't hack because you can "watch the rep" and play at the same time--you can alter your gameplan for each matchup more efficiently, you can brainstorm about it while playing, etc. etc. provided that you turn off the hack now and then (to test your gameplan against the darkness), i think you can arrive at a good gameplan and be more creative and aware of the options AND more trained in execution with HACK ON.
First off, I've heard every word of this post before. We've already had this discussion on TL.net, so frankly, I'm not that interested.
Personally, I say maphacking would ruin your timing. If you're altering your game play according to what you see, you're not making the assumptions required for good timing in normal game.
Good players have hacked, but I'm betting that they would've been good anyways. There are basically two kinds of map hackers. Bad players who hack 'casually,' and good players who hack because they love the game so much they're desperate not too lose (I think testie fits squarely in this category).
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On January 03 2006 05:46 nova_442 wrote:
I think it's wrong to cheat other players.
this is basically it for me too =O
i can see it being useful but i disagree with the argument that "you're helping them because you're giving them a better game"
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man i am kind of tempted lol j/p
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Well, he's right that if you use hacking as a tool, you will improve, but in my opinion, a better way to train is to mass game on ladders like PGT (cough* PAT hurry...I'm dying*). Why? Because playing random B.net gamers leads to too huge a range of skill of your opponents, with most of them clustered near the bottom. Thus, you are forced to hack against friends. Not only does this betray those you trust (unless of course you tell them in advance), but your friends have certain styles, and it's no good to learn how to deal with only *certain* styles if you actually want to get good. When I first switched to terran, I was very confident in my TvP because it owned my friends so bad. When I hit PGT, I found it was my worst MU as terran, yet I had previously thought it my best.
Also, hacking is a bad habit to get into.
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On January 03 2006 03:36 ReTr0[p.S] wrote:Show nested quote +On January 03 2006 03:19 mitsy wrote:
i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc. So you think every player will do the same thing over and over again? I don't think they will, everyone plays differently, let's say you hacked in a pvp and you saw him go fast expo, you would expect the same thing in another game and rush into his expo and bam, he went 3 gate on you.
The direct in game learning homes your skills. You feel when the expo could apear there because off direct experience. Different then concluding it after the game watching the replay, this off game conclusion has much less learningeffect then seeing it happen when your middle in the action. You don't run in your zealots expecting a expansion. You don't forget to sent in a probe or 1 lot all of a sudden because you hacked. You act on experience or a hunch (mostly caused by experience).
I don't agree on all arguments posted by mitsy. My objections to his reasoning have allready been adressed by other posters.
In general I still agree it could improve your game sparcely mixed into the normal games.
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Vatican City State1872 Posts
mity's idea really reminds me of communism, it only works if someone has a gun pointed to your head. If the masses were to start hacking to "improve," the skill it would be accepted at would steadily rise and thus before long even the top players would be hacking to "keep the game fair". This idea might work in theory but I really don't think it will work when applied to humankind because we have a tendency to do wrong moreso than good.
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so where can we get hacks for bw ? 
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On January 02 2006 22:56 SoMuchBetter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2006 20:25 Murph wrote:
Hum.. Well bro, you make a lot of good points. Only thing you fail to mention is what happens to your oponent.. It is copiously selfish. Sure, YOU might accelerate your improvements.. But at the sacrafice of others. For the person playing against you, they won't learn as well by having their opponent counter perfectly their every move, build, etc. I think your opponent will gain more than you will. There is no way that you're going to lose to any cheese or hidden strategies if you can see what they're doing, so esstentially the only way they can beat you is by outplaying you, and if both players are at the same level, thats quite the task for them. However, your opponent is not getting practice in a relevant game. Even if he outplays you against your hack, he cant apply what he has learned to any game, because he just played a hacker who had total vision and did things only a hacker would do in the game. The types of moves and counters he encountered will not be the same or even remotely the same against any other kind of player no matter how good they were, because real players dont play like hackers. Becomming good with a hack is a certain kind of good. And i think it's obvious to say that if the person being hacked against were to suddenly begin using a hack of their own, so now it's equal, the original hacker would instantly lose. This is evidence if how you cheat yourself hacking. No good hacker will ever be better than an equally skilled non-hacker, even when they both hack.
And yes i strongly aggree with the negative impact it has on the victim. I stopped playing bw over a year ago because of this. I bought the game late and entered this world late, where 90% of players were already highly experienced and i was not. However i pulled through anyway. I think the pinnacle of my bw skills were about 120apm and an even 1:1 W/L capability. I was mostly fine with this, for every game i won, i would lose one. I only advertised "avg skill only" games and most people were kind enough to obey that and play within my ranks. Until i switched servers and started losing more and more. I had known about the hacks for a little while, but they seemed to be a sub-culture like most these days. But eventually it become more and more apparent that just about every other person i played hacked, or at least seemed to. I just gave up and quit, and looking back on it now i think i was right, just about everyone on public servers IS hacking. I tried the bnet+ thing and even pgt briefly but was met with overwhelming skill. Far beyond my capability to pick up and learn against, given the time i have between work and other games. What was once a game i could leisurely play and be decent at was gone. I had no outlet which i SHOULD have been given, the medium skilled players. It was either be hacked, or play on pro-servers and lose constantly. Even if i could have practiced with the pro's and gotten good enough to enjoy my time with them, i should not have been robbed of the luxery of playing with people in my skill bracket.
This is why i hate hacks and hackers alike.
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On January 03 2006 08:51 CrownRoyal wrote:
mity's idea really reminds me of communism, it only works if someone has a gun pointed to your head. If the masses were to start hacking to "improve." The skill it would be accepted at would steadily rise and thus before long even the top players would be hacking to "keep the game fair". This idea might work in theory but I really don't think it will work when applied to humankind because we have a tendency to do wrong moreso than good. well it would just change the outlook of the game. Starcraft would become a shared vision type of gameplay. Which would ultimately fail because theres a reason the game has been so successful up to this point. I dont think it would be as enjoyable for anyone to play nor anyone to watch if everyone shared vision. There really is only one reason people hack, and it's not to get good. It's to feel good. To them, they literally feel satisfaction if their opponent loses, no matter how it is accomplished. Even if it is a hollow victory, to know that they were awarded the win by a computerised function and not their opponent is enough of a high to keep them doing it.
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to be honest, I can honestly say that i have used a maphack to improve... and it worked. it improved my timing considerably, and gave me an idea of what people do when they do certain build orders. (for example, what to look for). But I do admit it is very unfair on the other player, but hacking only gets you SO far.
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Many of the strongest players used to hack, but MUCH MORE of the strongest players never hacked. And a lot of players who used to hack still sucks, we just don't know about them :/ cuz well... they suck
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stimey fucking hacking tard 
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Actually LeeJungTerran is a proved hacker..lol
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Why dont you just set up a game with someone on this forum and have them share vision with you, so you can learn, or better yet, just ask them to teach you.
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is awesome32281 Posts
On January 02 2006 20:03 EvilTeletubby wrote:For the love of god, yes...
You got my vote.
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Maphacking causes you to lose all your scouting skills, and that ain't cool. It's too far from a real game.
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stimey isn't an idiot, he knows what he's talking about and makes a shitload of valid points. i agree that he makes some dumb posts but so does 80% of tl does at one point or another.
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i actually recommend banning stimey
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On January 03 2006 14:23 WGT)DarkXprT wrote:
i actually recommend banning stimey
I actually recommend for you to shut the fuck up
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experience and practice gives u skill, not map hacking
not knowing what ur opponent has but preparing for everything makes u good
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EPT
