provided that you try to hide it and remain plausibly legit, i think hacking helps you improve more quickly. it's easier than watching reps after a game. you can learn the timing, the options, what to "scout" for more quickly and more precisely.
there is a myth that hacking "takes no skill" or "ruins your skill." i think we have found that to not be the case. many of the strongest players became strong while hacking (feel free to name names). many more probably just won't admit to this.
now if you don't try to hide it at all, sure it's stupid. but if you hide it well enough that you don't get caught, i think you're basically building your skills faster than someone who doesn't hack because you can "watch the rep" and play at the same time--you can alter your gameplan for each matchup more efficiently, you can brainstorm about it while playing, etc. etc. provided that you turn off the hack now and then (to test your gameplan against the darkness), i think you can arrive at a good gameplan and be more creative and aware of the options AND more trained in execution with HACK ON.
On January 02 2006 19:36 wasted wrote: who needs a hack? just tell your opponent why you would like to see what he's doing and make him give you vision...
easier than asking. u ever tried asking people on bnet ANYTHING? let alone explaining something controversial or complicated
On January 02 2006 19:38 Sacajawea wrote: Can we ban stimey yet, PLEASE.
why don't we ban you instead? what have you contributed in the past 3 weeks? everything i've seen from you has been OT, inflammatory, and reflecting no intention in discussing or even reading the topic at hand
On January 02 2006 19:38 karelen wrote: old and boring discussion that needs no revival. dumbest thread yet this year
old and boring? wtf. when have we seen anyone suggest that hacking is a good thing?
Misty you don't even play bw, all you seem to be doing is trying to project yourself as contributing so you may get moderator status, thats your whole fucking point about being here for some reason. But trust me, that will NEVER happen.
Yes hacking can be good for you for many reasons. So can murder. Whats your point? We allready know the benefits (seing opponent base)
If your only point is the "use hack gain skill" then I mean, why? If one are that serious, serious enough to use a cheat then one really wouldn't need the cheat would one?
Of course you gain skill by playing games, whith or without hacks. Maybe hack provides a little better learning but i doubt it. Shortcuts sucks when learning, and think about this
1. Your "feeling" could get worse. 2. Your nerves and offline skills would take damage
And also, if you accept it as a way of training, then why not use it all the time? Equally bad. The only thing of value in your post was the thought "you migh improve more", that might be true, but who cares?
"i actually recommend map hacking" lol quit trying to create controversy as ml1710 said.
Mitsy actually brings up some points that are interesting. I see hacking as evil and a way to not only cheat your opponent but also yourself. But it cannot be denied that a number of succesfull players got to where they are now with the aid of hacks.
i see your point .. but its unfair to the people you play...and then to take it further what if we all agreed that this is a good way to improve, and we have hackers playing hackers..?
i can seeing it being an ok learning tool, but i disagree with hiding it. the only acceptable use to me would be between 2 training partners, or a group of close-knit players
On January 02 2006 19:56 CTStalker wrote: i can seeing it being an ok learning tool, but i disagree with hiding it. the only acceptable use to me would be between 2 training partners, or a group of close-knit players
agreed, not just anyone, but your mates thank god for pgt --;;
Mitsy the self-proclaimed genius is at it again huh? Well hmm...
You can't develop a sense of timing if you become accustomed to just looking at what your opponent's doing everytime you're curious. Timing is infinitely more valuable than hacking as well, because your anti-builds will become more well-rounded. By hacking you're robbing yourself of the intuition it takes to beat an opponent shrouded by the fog of war. Hackers who turn their hacks off never know when to expect what. It's even more blatantly obvious to see than looking at the player's hotkeys.
So in a nutshell, hacking is a crutch and never allows you to develop the infinately important concept of timing.
banning him would be retarded. he hasnt said anything wrong and simply is stating his opinion. although i personally don't agree with his side of the argument he does support it and has every right to. by making this a huge flame topic your giving him what he wants anyway.
Hum.. Well bro, you make a lot of good points. Only thing you fail to mention is what happens to your oponent.. It is copiously selfish. Sure, YOU might accelerate your improvements.. But at the sacrafice of others. For the person playing against you, they won't learn as well by having their opponent counter perfectly their every move, build, etc.
I would have to agree with Murph on this one. Maybe using a hack would help you become better, faster... but steroids also let you build muscle faster. That doesn't mean there aren't other ramifications for using them.
If you find an old post of Testie's (I can find it for you) where he talks about hacking on these forums, you will notice he says that hacking is a huge disadvantage, because you get out of the habit of doing things like scouting, only making obs if you need them, etc.
he's had his admin status revoked there the forum's useless for him anyway, 99% of it's content is for stacks smaller than his pfr 'everybody's welcome'
Yes hack may be good for skill for some people, but we still shouldn't allow it because I everyone hates to play against hackers in ladders like PGTour or WGTour.
Hacks are things we must get rid of as quickly as possible.
On January 02 2006 20:23 cava wrote: banning him would be retarded. he hasnt said anything wrong and simply is stating his opinion. although i personally don't agree with his side of the argument he does support it and has every right to. by making this a huge flame topic your giving him what he wants anyway.
the problem is he always says the stupidest fucking things and makes the biggest deal out of the least important matters
he stays 'in the rules' but its so fucking annoying because he's a retarded argumentative cunt
congrats stimey another fakesteve post dedicated to you, another notch on the keyboard, another step closer to coveted internet fame. kill yourself.
Maphack is a crutch, and one that's hard to let go of. Once you start, it's not easy to go back to the fog. Yes, it can help you get better, but you won't be able to scout well without it.
The two good players that have hacked in the past that I can think of would be good without hacks and didn't use them much TMK.
On January 02 2006 21:13 Sacajawea wrote: Well if you need to hack to get better, because you have learning deficiencies, then you don't deserve to be good.
Hahaha, now I'm not going to say whether I believe it's true or not, but that isn't relavent. The discussion is about whether it helps or not, not whether you "deserve" the improvement. o_0
Having said that I can't see how hacking would help. Most of the good players that hacked in the past that Stimey is refering to only did it in major tournaments or games and only for a short period of time. They were also already good. So this is not evidence that a training routine of hacking would make you better.
Ehh, I suppose the 10000000 games these players who hacked once or twice are completly irrelevent? this topic has been overly discused, it is dumb, childish and makes absolutely no sence whatsoever. You wanna be good? Then play 10000000 games and you will be. If you hack it will make you worse for when you don't hack. Its simple. It does not help your timing at all. I understand what you believe to make you think that it might be so. But you are so wrong. How the fuck would it help your timing? The only way it might is because you see what he is doing. How the fuck you exposed to know the timing if you can no longer see what your opponent is doing. It makes absolutely no sence at all and enrages the boiling lava within me when someone states this.
hacking DOES take skill, just not as much skill as playing a real legit game. by hacking you have to hide the fact that you're actually hacking, by not right-clicking his units so it doesn't show up in those apm chart things, and so on.
On January 02 2006 22:08 Tossim1 wrote: honestly, i agree with him.
hacking DOES take skill, just not as much skill as playing a real legit game. by hacking you have to hide the fact that you're actually hacking, by not right-clicking his units so it doesn't show up in those apm chart things, and so on.
So what's the point in it if you gain more from a legit game?
On January 02 2006 20:25 Murph wrote: Hum.. Well bro, you make a lot of good points. Only thing you fail to mention is what happens to your oponent.. It is copiously selfish. Sure, YOU might accelerate your improvements.. But at the sacrafice of others. For the person playing against you, they won't learn as well by having their opponent counter perfectly their every move, build, etc.
I think your opponent will gain more than you will. There is no way that you're going to lose to any cheese or hidden strategies if you can see what they're doing, so esstentially the only way they can beat you is by outplaying you, and if both players are at the same level, thats quite the task for them.
and by this you recommend to everyone to stop playing PGTour ? where are they gonna play, if they can't improve by playing on a ladder ? normal games on b.net ? don't forget that maphacking makes you have a VERY BAD reputation.
I think maphacking can improve your skill and take leaps in improving attack and BO timing. I've never done it. Simply unfair to your oponent.
! It can screw up his play beyond the games you played with him. !
He will be trying to find out WTF went wrong trying to change aspects that were good under normal play but sucked because you hacked.
Trying to cover up that you hack in game, oh the agony of having to perform this actingclass. It outweights the advantages you get from the maphack. Oh poor Hacky.
Good point. I've never hacked but there are times when my timing attacks failed miserably... Like worse than ever before and I always get curious... Like how the fuck u see a +1/speed timing rush when the ovie saw the citadel or forge and ran away seeing cyber....
idiotic OT contributions aside, i think i was not as clear as i could be in my first post, and so, there are some worthwhile things to respond to.
On January 02 2006 19:52 Patriot.dlk wrote: If your only point is the "use hack gain skill" then I mean, why? If one are that serious, serious enough to use a cheat then one really wouldn't need the cheat would one?
My argument is that, whatever your level of seriousness or effort, hacking can increase the gains per time or per effort or however you measure it. Arguing that one "doesn't need" to hack if they are "serious" etc. therefore doesn't apply. For N seriousness, a person gains more with hack (properly used, see below) than not. That's my claim. I supported this claim in the initial post. You go on to say that "it might be true, but who cares?" It means that people are missing out by not hacking.
On January 02 2006 19:53 Freezer_au wrote: Mitsy actually brings up some points that are interesting. I see hacking as evil and a way to not only cheat your opponent but also yourself. But it cannot be denied that a number of succesfull players got to where they are now with the aid of hacks.
What I'm trying to challenge is the common sense notion that hacking is necessarily always "cheating yourself," and while we're on the subject, that it's necessarily cheating the opponent. Maybe if FrozenArbiter started map hacking (and hiding it well) he would provide opponents a much higher challenge--no harm, no foul. The important ingredient, whether talking about using it for your own improvement or to provide a greater opponent for others, is whether you truly honestly use it in such a way that remains plausibly non-hacking. This means that you stick to your knowledge as much as possible and NOT what the hack shows you. You use the hack to alter this knowledge for the purposes of future games. This means that you alter your patterns of scouting and decisions based on things you wouldn't see without tediously studying replays--but now you can do this while playing, generating many positive effects. If you don't honestly do this, you miss out. And if you don't test this with vision-off games, you also erode some abilities. I feel these points answer this:
[QUOTE]On January 02 2006 20:12 SpeaKinRiddleS wrote: You can't develop a sense of timing if you become accustomed to just looking at what your opponent's doing everytime you're curious. Timing is infinitely more valuable than hacking as well, because your anti-builds will become more well-rounded. By hacking you're robbing yourself of the intuition it takes to beat an opponent shrouded by the fog of war. Hackers who turn their hacks off never know when to expect what. It's even more blatantly obvious to see than looking at the player's hotkeys. I'm saying you build multitasking abilities and knowledge by being able to keep everything going while understanding what your opponent is doing, and that you learn how their decisions line up with yours. You still must know how to scout them, and you can't change how you scout every game. You must follow a basic "blind" set of rules for scouting or people who see you game-to-game will know you hack. So if you remain plausibly non-hacking, you are simply improving and evolving your knowledge and gameplan and yes, timing, more efficiently, with hacking. Then, when you play with the hack off, you can more clearly say to yourself "i don't know if he's doing X or Y", but you already are used to facing this situation while you hacked, because you were already saying "i have to appear like i don't know if he's doing X or Y--so i play this way each game."
[QUOTE]On January 02 2006 21:52 greatmeh wrote: Ehh, I suppose the 10000000 games these players who hacked once or twice are completly irrelevent?[/quote] We really don't know how many games they played while hacking and how quickly they improved while doing that. My theory is that playing with hack (while trying to appear legit, therefore keeping a consistent gameplan that stands up to scrutiny and is plausibly non-hacking behavior) will improve a player (both in raw skill, i.e. multitasking, and in knowledge/gameplan) more quickly than simply staring into that fog, wondering, trial and error, and checking the reps for info.
[quote]this topic has been overly discused, it is dumb, childish and makes absolutely no sence whatsoever.[/quote] where has this been discussed before? i don't recall people challenging the assumption that hacking hurts the hacker and that it is a crutch before. i am here to suggest hacking can actually be good in some situations for the hacker and even for the opponent. if this is true, it's not dumb or childish at all. what doesn't make sense?
[quote]You wanna be good? Then play 10000000 games and you will be. If you hack it will make you worse for when you don't hack. Its simple. It does not help your timing at all. I understand what you believe to make you think that it might be so. But you are so wrong. How the fuck would it help your timing? The only way it might is because you see what he is doing. How the fuck you exposed to know the timing if you can no longer see what your opponent is doing. It makes absolutely no sence at all and enrages the boiling lava within me when someone states this. [/QUOTE] This is what I am challenging. You say I am wrong, you say this is childish, but where is YOUR support? All you say is "X is false." I think I supported my arguments a bit better than that. The theory is that it takes less games to become better if you hack in the ways I've mentioned above. You simply say it won't. That's all anyone's said to challenge this so far in this thread. And THAT is childish and makes no sense. Where's the discussion?
I mean, this is a recommendation from Stimey, not a law. He recommends map hack, others don't. The choice is still yours. Like Captn planet said... The Power.... is yours~ So learn from the Turner and make your own choice. I personally also think Map hack could help players get better and I would except I pride myself on never EVER EVER even having a map hack on my comp.
On January 03 2006 01:35 SuperJongMan wrote: I mean, this is a recommendation from Stimey, not a law. He recommends map hack, others don't. The choice is still yours. Like Captn planet said... The Power.... is yours~ So learn from the Turner and make your own choice. I personally also think Map hack could help players get better and I would except I pride myself on never EVER EVER even having a map hack on my comp.
lol amen to that
On January 02 2006 21:08 iG....CoolT wrote: Yes hack may be good for skill for some people, but we still shouldn't allow it because I everyone hates to play against hackers in ladders like PGTour or WGTour.
Hacks are things we must get rid of as quickly as possible.
It's a bit unfair. But who cares since we are just playing for fun really.
I thought there wasn't map hack anymore but I was playing fastest 4v4 comps and the guys told me the colour and race of the computers so I guess it's still around.
Dude, that's shit logic. We play for fun... So tell me, is it fun losing to a hacker cuz he hacked? That's a dick thing to do.. you can potentially steal the fun factor from another.
Think a lil deeper than you are right now... cuz you thinkin real shallow
Just ask Testie, Trek or Selector if they think that's what made them good :/
And even if it helps your timing you'll lose your instinct/intuition and scouting abilities. Watching the rep after the game, even if it takes more time at least wont teach you bad habbits.
If you want to enhance your timing ask a friend to play with his vision on and try different builds that way.
I don't think any respectable player should ever come close to losing if they are given vision. That's just really sad. And you have no proof you lose instinct and scouting abilities.... especially scouting... wtf? The whole point of Stimey's hack point is that it teaches timing. You wouldn't lose instinct, it would hone it since you watching a rep and having vision in a game is very different.
On January 03 2006 02:54 Beamo wrote: Just ask Testie, Trek or Selector if they think that's what made them good :/
i'm arguing not that it will make u go farther, but that it will get you there faster if u use it.
And even if it helps your timing you'll lose your instinct/intuition and scouting abilities.
i'm arguing the opposite, that u will be more clear about how you should scout and what you must assume and uw ill know more clearly exactly when to scout,w here, and what it's for and what it's worth
Watching the rep after the game, even if it takes more time at least wont teach you bad habbits.
with less effort than that u can avoid doing bad-habit causing things while hacking, and gain all the benefits i mentioned
If you want to enhance your timing ask a friend to play with his vision on and try different builds that way.
this is all i'm saying to do, except more convenient.... u admit this would work,t hen.
I don't think anyone argued it. It's just no one is that desperate to improve to be a hacker... Man, you sound more and more convincing... but morals first -_-;;
On January 03 2006 02:58 SuperJongMan wrote: I don't think any respectable player should ever come close to losing if they are given vision. That's just really sad. And you have no proof you lose instinct and scouting abilities.... especially scouting... wtf? The whole point of Stimey's hack point is that it teaches timing. You wouldn't lose instinct, it would hone it since you watching a rep and having vision in a game is very different.
You play this game a little ???....
Mind giving me the difference between having map hack on and the opponent giving vision ?
How do you expect to not lose scouting abilities while playing with hack ? You'll lose all reflexes of searching for hidden bases since you already know he doesn't have any. You'll also lose the reflexes to adapt as fast as possible to a tech you hadn't seen coming. And you'll lose the reflexes to how and when to get a unit inside the opponents main to see what they are up to.
If you want to enhance your timing ask a friend to play with his vision on and try different builds that way.
this is all i'm saying to do, except more convenient.... u admit this would work,t hen.
Yes I think it can make you get pbetter timing but I also think you'll lose other fondamentals while doing that. And I don't see how you can avoid the bad habbits... send a probe out to scout a map exp each time you take a look at the mini map to see if he has a hidden base ? Even doing this your timing will be off since going back to not using hack your probe will see that expansion moments later then U used to with hack. (and sometimes those are the seconds that count)
Lings are plentiful. Zealots should be nearing or already be on meth. And terran should have comsat-ish..
The point is, you understand the timing. So in a past phase where you may have started expecting expos, you now understand that an opponant can safely expand maybe 20 seconds earlier, saving you hassle. I really don't think you can argue with Stimey, it's just a moral choice one has to make.
On January 03 2006 03:09 Beamo wrote: How do you expect to not lose scouting abilities while playing with hack ? You'll lose all reflexes of searching for hidden bases since you already know he doesn't have any.
not necessarily. since you sitll built a knowledge base (and more quickly) of when and where to scout, you probably understand better this. reflex is pobably the wrong word. what hacking could do is let you see what kinds of things u must assume, what kinds of things u must check for. obviously u must also practice these with the hack off.. but i say u can learn them better with the hack on 80% of the time at least.
You'll also lose the reflexes to adapt as fast as possible to a tech you hadn't seen coming.
no, i think u would be BETTER at this. u still have to appear like a non-hacker. so u are basically waiting to be surprised. u have all the time in the world to think about how you are going to react when u suddenly get surprised by mutas if u really think ur gameplan is solid enough. so say some surprise comes at u. u have to be man enough to elt it beat you if you really dont understand how u shoulda been ready for it.. and not use the hack. with the hack u have the opportunity to cheat yourself in this way, but no one makes you do it. and then, and only then, that's what replays are for. but u can work out so many minor kinks that you wouldn't bother doing otherwise, and much more efficiently and quickly. and i argue that after u spend those 5 minutes thinking of how you're going to react to a surprise, u remember that reaction even when the hack is off. ppl who just react spur of the moment probably do a worser reaction and have to be in that situation dozens of times before they get the 5 minute thought out reaction.
my response to the moral argument: if you do what i am talking about well enough, you might actually be doing your opponent the favor of providing a more skilled, more solid opponent for them than you would otherwise. i'm not talking about doing anything suspicious. if they proxy something really intelligently you have to bite the bullet and completely be surprised by it, for instance.... u cannot show hack or you're cheating yourself.
in my experience, u gain more insight into early game scouting by 100 hacking (while not showing hack) games than u would by 5000 legit games.
i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc.
On January 03 2006 03:19 mitsy wrote: i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc.
So you think every player will do the same thing over and over again? I don't think they will, everyone plays differently, let's say you hacked in a pvp and you saw him go fast expo, you would expect the same thing in another game and rush into his expo and bam, he went 3 gate on you.
On January 03 2006 03:19 mitsy wrote: i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc.
So you think every player will do the same thing over and over again? I don't think they will, everyone plays differently, let's say you hacked in a pvp and you saw him go fast expo, you would expect the same thing in another game and rush into his expo and bam, he went 3 gate on you.
exactly, you would have to figure out when to scout or in situations where there is no viable scouting option u would have to decide which to guess based on which u see more often, whether it is better to assume this based on that, and so on. u might see a guy do 3 gate and then say "well i scouted him doing X Y Z, maybe i will pretend that anyone who does that is 3 gating from now on" and u see how that pans out. u have to think aobut these things a lot more.
with the hack on, it's like a visual aid, u know what to hink about (when ur trying to not look like a hacker) and are constantly reminded and have much more to multitask. u have to decide how to read a 3 gate vs an expand, or how to play the middle road or play the odds. all this is much more easily apparanent with my method than staring at the fog and checking reps, so i argue u can learn faster the hacking way i am describing.
Plus, hacking let's you see units which I'm sure would be so nice. In the expo vs 3 gate scenario, you get a goon count, and you would be able to compare early unit count differences. if you have 8 goons and he has 13, something is whack. With the hack, you'd be able to see things like that and react accordingly, and use that reaction in a real hack-free game. I personally think PvZ and ZvT would be most useful to learn off hacking simply cuz of the intuition involved in PvZ and ZvT has a lot of techattack timings. Most people have a feel for mirror matches since you should be able to tell.. it's your own race you're playing...
i guess the most important point is that u dont have to look just because u have the option. u must only look "to learn", not to cheat yourself for a win inconsistent with your understanding of the game. but if u are unsure how something plays out, hack lets you know what's going on so you better understand the game for the future.
everyone has limited up time; u don't want reps to take away from that any more than they have to. reps are a value in some situations in their own right but there is much more to be gained by hacking in a game...
hacking can save you time from watching reps, which means more time playing, more time thinking and learning while playing... a crutial difference in your learning curve compared to non-hack.
I'm high so Imma share a short lil story. It took me over 100 games of ZvP with a specific very good expo=> Power Hydra user until I made my own speed zealot rush. Only lately have I seen it being used ( I saw anytime do a very similar build in one of his 1.11 reps) but I think if I had a hack during the hundreds of practice Power Hydra games, I woulda been able to figure out my own rush much faster. And yeah, it used to RAPE back in the day. I rarely had PvZs longer than 15 minutes.
I guess I would permit hacking only to newbies, who are really begginers and suck at it. I've seen some of my friends played this way(black sheep walled vs comp) and improved quicklier. But after that normal game is the best you can do preferably with someone your level or a little bit better than you(for challenge).
I really don't see how hacking helps improve you so much. Hacking is only useful in finding weakpoints in your opponents game and exploiting them. You only become good at BW through playing the game and studying replays. The only reason I can see to use a maphack is for timing on builds if you had a big game coming up (a timed rush such as BBS for example).
I mean ffs, hacking makes you a winning player, not a good one.
If I had a hack for poker, I could make shitloads of money, but I'd never be good at the game. You can only truly learn and be good at BW through playing copius amounts of games, identfying holes in your game and improving on them. Hacking just helps you in making the correct play at the correct time. Sure you'll win a lot, but you'll never be good in any sort of offline environment.
On January 02 2006 19:34 mitsy wrote: provided that you try to hide it and remain plausibly legit, i think hacking helps you improve more quickly. it's easier than watching reps after a game. you can learn the timing, the options, what to "scout" for more quickly and more precisely.
there is a myth that hacking "takes no skill" or "ruins your skill." i think we have found that to not be the case. many of the strongest players became strong while hacking (feel free to name names). many more probably just won't admit to this.
now if you don't try to hide it at all, sure it's stupid. but if you hide it well enough that you don't get caught, i think you're basically building your skills faster than someone who doesn't hack because you can "watch the rep" and play at the same time--you can alter your gameplan for each matchup more efficiently, you can brainstorm about it while playing, etc. etc. provided that you turn off the hack now and then (to test your gameplan against the darkness), i think you can arrive at a good gameplan and be more creative and aware of the options AND more trained in execution with HACK ON.
First off, I've heard every word of this post before. We've already had this discussion on TL.net, so frankly, I'm not that interested.
Personally, I say maphacking would ruin your timing. If you're altering your game play according to what you see, you're not making the assumptions required for good timing in normal game.
Good players have hacked, but I'm betting that they would've been good anyways. There are basically two kinds of map hackers. Bad players who hack 'casually,' and good players who hack because they love the game so much they're desperate not too lose (I think testie fits squarely in this category).
Well, he's right that if you use hacking as a tool, you will improve, but in my opinion, a better way to train is to mass game on ladders like PGT (cough* PAT hurry...I'm dying*). Why? Because playing random B.net gamers leads to too huge a range of skill of your opponents, with most of them clustered near the bottom. Thus, you are forced to hack against friends. Not only does this betray those you trust (unless of course you tell them in advance), but your friends have certain styles, and it's no good to learn how to deal with only *certain* styles if you actually want to get good. When I first switched to terran, I was very confident in my TvP because it owned my friends so bad. When I hit PGT, I found it was my worst MU as terran, yet I had previously thought it my best.
On January 03 2006 03:19 mitsy wrote: i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc.
So you think every player will do the same thing over and over again? I don't think they will, everyone plays differently, let's say you hacked in a pvp and you saw him go fast expo, you would expect the same thing in another game and rush into his expo and bam, he went 3 gate on you.
The direct in game learning homes your skills. You feel when the expo could apear there because off direct experience. Different then concluding it after the game watching the replay, this off game conclusion has much less learningeffect then seeing it happen when your middle in the action. You don't run in your zealots expecting a expansion. You don't forget to sent in a probe or 1 lot all of a sudden because you hacked. You act on experience or a hunch (mostly caused by experience).
I don't agree on all arguments posted by mitsy. My objections to his reasoning have allready been adressed by other posters.
In general I still agree it could improve your game sparcely mixed into the normal games.
mity's idea really reminds me of communism, it only works if someone has a gun pointed to your head. If the masses were to start hacking to "improve," the skill it would be accepted at would steadily rise and thus before long even the top players would be hacking to "keep the game fair". This idea might work in theory but I really don't think it will work when applied to humankind because we have a tendency to do wrong moreso than good.
On January 02 2006 20:25 Murph wrote: Hum.. Well bro, you make a lot of good points. Only thing you fail to mention is what happens to your oponent.. It is copiously selfish. Sure, YOU might accelerate your improvements.. But at the sacrafice of others. For the person playing against you, they won't learn as well by having their opponent counter perfectly their every move, build, etc.
I think your opponent will gain more than you will. There is no way that you're going to lose to any cheese or hidden strategies if you can see what they're doing, so esstentially the only way they can beat you is by outplaying you, and if both players are at the same level, thats quite the task for them.
However, your opponent is not getting practice in a relevant game. Even if he outplays you against your hack, he cant apply what he has learned to any game, because he just played a hacker who had total vision and did things only a hacker would do in the game. The types of moves and counters he encountered will not be the same or even remotely the same against any other kind of player no matter how good they were, because real players dont play like hackers. Becomming good with a hack is a certain kind of good. And i think it's obvious to say that if the person being hacked against were to suddenly begin using a hack of their own, so now it's equal, the original hacker would instantly lose. This is evidence if how you cheat yourself hacking. No good hacker will ever be better than an equally skilled non-hacker, even when they both hack.
And yes i strongly aggree with the negative impact it has on the victim. I stopped playing bw over a year ago because of this. I bought the game late and entered this world late, where 90% of players were already highly experienced and i was not. However i pulled through anyway. I think the pinnacle of my bw skills were about 120apm and an even 1:1 W/L capability. I was mostly fine with this, for every game i won, i would lose one. I only advertised "avg skill only" games and most people were kind enough to obey that and play within my ranks. Until i switched servers and started losing more and more. I had known about the hacks for a little while, but they seemed to be a sub-culture like most these days. But eventually it become more and more apparent that just about every other person i played hacked, or at least seemed to. I just gave up and quit, and looking back on it now i think i was right, just about everyone on public servers IS hacking. I tried the bnet+ thing and even pgt briefly but was met with overwhelming skill. Far beyond my capability to pick up and learn against, given the time i have between work and other games. What was once a game i could leisurely play and be decent at was gone. I had no outlet which i SHOULD have been given, the medium skilled players. It was either be hacked, or play on pro-servers and lose constantly. Even if i could have practiced with the pro's and gotten good enough to enjoy my time with them, i should not have been robbed of the luxery of playing with people in my skill bracket.
On January 03 2006 08:51 CrownRoyal wrote: mity's idea really reminds me of communism, it only works if someone has a gun pointed to your head. If the masses were to start hacking to "improve." The skill it would be accepted at would steadily rise and thus before long even the top players would be hacking to "keep the game fair". This idea might work in theory but I really don't think it will work when applied to humankind because we have a tendency to do wrong moreso than good.
well it would just change the outlook of the game. Starcraft would become a shared vision type of gameplay. Which would ultimately fail because theres a reason the game has been so successful up to this point. I dont think it would be as enjoyable for anyone to play nor anyone to watch if everyone shared vision. There really is only one reason people hack, and it's not to get good. It's to feel good. To them, they literally feel satisfaction if their opponent loses, no matter how it is accomplished. Even if it is a hollow victory, to know that they were awarded the win by a computerised function and not their opponent is enough of a high to keep them doing it.
to be honest, I can honestly say that i have used a maphack to improve... and it worked. it improved my timing considerably, and gave me an idea of what people do when they do certain build orders. (for example, what to look for). But I do admit it is very unfair on the other player, but hacking only gets you SO far.
Many of the strongest players used to hack, but MUCH MORE of the strongest players never hacked. And a lot of players who used to hack still sucks, we just don't know about them :/ cuz well... they suck
Why dont you just set up a game with someone on this forum and have them share vision with you, so you can learn, or better yet, just ask them to teach you.
stimey isn't an idiot, he knows what he's talking about and makes a shitload of valid points. i agree that he makes some dumb posts but so does 80% of tl does at one point or another.
On January 02 2006 19:34 mitsy wrote: provided that you try to hide it and remain plausibly legit, i think hacking helps you improve more quickly. it's easier than watching reps after a game. you can learn the timing, the options, what to "scout" for more quickly and more precisely.
there is a myth that hacking "takes no skill" or "ruins your skill." i think we have found that to not be the case. many of the strongest players became strong while hacking (feel free to name names). many more probably just won't admit to this.
now if you don't try to hide it at all, sure it's stupid. but if you hide it well enough that you don't get caught, i think you're basically building your skills faster than someone who doesn't hack because you can "watch the rep" and play at the same time--you can alter your gameplan for each matchup more efficiently, you can brainstorm about it while playing, etc. etc. provided that you turn off the hack now and then (to test your gameplan against the darkness), i think you can arrive at a good gameplan and be more creative and aware of the options AND more trained in execution with HACK ON.
First off, I've heard every word of this post before. We've already had this discussion on TL.net, so frankly, I'm not that interested.
okay. where? when? prove it.
Personally, I say maphacking would ruin your timing. If you're altering your game play according to what you see, you're not making the assumptions required for good timing in normal game.
you may think that, but you did not say why. i already said why i think it would not ruin your timing, if you bothered to read more of this thread before responding.
Good players have hacked, but I'm betting that they would've been good anyways. There are basically two kinds of map hackers. Bad players who hack 'casually,' and good players who hack because they love the game so much they're desperate not too lose (I think testie fits squarely in this category).
this is also answered in this thread already. it doesn't matter if they would have been good anyways. my point is that hacking, used well, speeds up at least some of the learning process. we also don't know how many good players hacked and never admitted it.[/QUOTE]
On January 03 2006 05:46 nova_442 wrote: I think it's wrong to cheat other players.
this is basically it for me too =O
i can see it being useful but i disagree with the argument that "you're helping them because you're giving them a better game"
why do you disagree? if you hack the way i'm talking about, you give them a better game. who is the victim?
On January 03 2006 08:51 CrownRoyal wrote: mity's idea really reminds me of communism, it only works if someone has a gun pointed to your head. If the masses were to start hacking to "improve," the skill it would be accepted at would steadily rise and thus before long even the top players would be hacking to "keep the game fair". This idea might work in theory but I really don't think it will work when applied to humankind because we have a tendency to do wrong moreso than good.
if people don't have the discipline to do what i said, then that has nothing to do with what i'm talking about. i'm attacking the myth that hacking only is a crutch. i want to change that to "hacking can make you better, faster, if you learn how to use it without cheating yourself or appearing to be a cheater." i really don't see what you mean by the gun and the communism, could you explain? i'm saying ppl who want to be better at bw, at least at certain levels, could get further and get there faster through this specific way of using hack. where's the gun, and wtf is the communism?
(also newbsaiboot's contributions only repeat things already answered in this thread.)
. i'm attacking the myth that hacking only is a crutch. i want to change that to "hacking can make you better, faster, if you learn how to use it without cheating yourself or appearing to be a cheater.
This holds about as much weight as saying using an auto-aim in your favorite FPS makes you better because it allows you to get the feel for the levels better. This is utter nonsense, because that same player who has to learn the maps and how to shoot on his own will be twice the player the bot is. Learning has an exponential curve. You may think youre doing better by progressing up the ranks quicker than someone who doesnt cheat, initially. But then the non-cheater has a turning point, and evolves at a sudden rapid rate once everything "clicks" for him. I see it all the time. I get to know somebody playing on my favorite server and i usually beat the shit out of them for a week or two. Then one day all the sudden they are 2-3 times better. I laugh because i remember the feeling myself, to wake up one morning, jump in, and all the sudden i can say i own. The cheater has a linear growth pattern, and an inevitable early plateau. Not only that, once they reach this echelon, their learning curve takes a turn for the worse. They stagnate, and sometimes even get worse. The natural learner almost never loses his innate skills, short of not practicing for long durations of time.
I went to a mini-lan a couple of months ago at some guys house, and just for shits and giggles i fired up quake2. The very first random server i joined, an OPX-Tourney mod (or whatever it's called) with players i could immediately recognized as skilled, i won. I have not played the game in at least a year, maybe 2. Further more i hadnt even been there since the map started, i joined half way and stormed the map. I know for a fact im not as good as i used to be at that game, but nevertheless i was still impressed with myself. A cheater could never accomplish this. Therein lies the crutch.
edit: ok you keep throwing in this mystical statement of "IF you learn how not to cheat yourself". This is an oxymoron however, for the moment you fire up that hack you are immediately unlearning the natural talents which will benefit you later on. Not to mention the whole paradoxical irony of it all, considering that it is not really YOU playing the game when you cheat, but rather the cheat adding many components for you. You are not even playing the same game, you have skewed into a tangent alternate timeline where players show themselves through walls and minerals dont exist. In order for you to even say "i am playing this game", only your physical body and the hardware required to make it execute can be in the equasion.
. i'm attacking the myth that hacking only is a crutch. i want to change that to "hacking can make you better, faster, if you learn how to use it without cheating yourself or appearing to be a cheater.
This holds about as much weight as saying using an auto-aim in your favorite FPS makes you better because it allows you to get the feel for the levels better. This is utter nonsense, because that same player who has to learn the maps and how to shoot on his own will be twice the player the bot is. Learning has an exponential curve. You may think youre doing better by progressing up the ranks quicker than someone who doesnt cheat, initially. But then the non-cheater has a turning point, and evolves at a sudden rapid rate once everything "clicks" for him. I see it all the time. I get to know somebody playing on my favorite server and i usually beat the shit out of them for a week or two. Then one day all the sudden they are 2-3 times better. I laugh because i remember the feeling myself, to wake up one morning, jump in, and all the sudden i can say i own. The cheater has a linear growth pattern, and an inevitable early plateau. Not only that, once they reach this echelon, their learning curve takes a turn for the worse. They stagnate, and sometimes even get worse. The natural learner almost never loses his innate skills, short of not practicing for long durations of time.
i dont think this fits in with what i've said in this topic at all. i've said over and over that u do not solely cheat nor cheat to "appear" better but rather to learn _more quickly_ and that u must also play non-cheating and think like a non-cheater and what you would do with the hack off at all times. it simply makes you improve faster, have more time, learn more (as explained numerous times in past pages in this thread)
edit: ok you keep throwing in this mystical statement of "IF you learn how not to cheat yourself". This is an oxymoron however, for the moment you fire up that hack you are immediately unlearning the natural talents which will benefit you later on. Not to mention the whole paradoxical irony of it all, considering that it is not really YOU playing the game when you cheat, but rather the cheat adding many components for you. You are not even playing the same game, you have skewed into a tangent alternate timeline where players show themselves through walls and minerals dont exist. In order for you to even say "i am playing this game", only your physical body and the hardware required to make it execute can be in the equasion.
not a paradox. i think i explained adequately already that "not cheating yourself" means very specific things that i do lay out and give examples of. you can advance your knowledge and even your habits if you think right about them even if the hack is on (see earlier in the thread for examples of how to do this).
it sounds to me like you're talking about a kind of hacker that i'm NOT. maybe this is because i wasn't clear enough in my earlier posts. but i did already respond to people sharing your misunderstanding already.
On January 02 2006 20:23 cava wrote: banning him would be retarded. he hasnt said anything wrong and simply is stating his opinion. although i personally don't agree with his side of the argument he does support it and has every right to. by making this a huge flame topic your giving him what he wants anyway.
the problem is he always says the stupidest fucking things and makes the biggest deal out of the least important matters
he stays 'in the rules' but its so fucking annoying because he's a retarded argumentative cunt
congrats stimey another fakesteve post dedicated to you, another notch on the keyboard, another step closer to coveted internet fame. kill yourself.
EPT
