EPTSo tell me, is it fun losing to a hacker cuz he hacked?
That's a dick thing to do.. you can potentially steal the fun factor from another.
Think a lil deeper than you are right now... cuz you thinkin real shallow
i actually recommend map hacking - Page 4
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
So tell me, is it fun losing to a hacker cuz he hacked? That's a dick thing to do.. you can potentially steal the fun factor from another. Think a lil deeper than you are right now... cuz you thinkin real shallow | ||
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
And even if it helps your timing you'll lose your instinct/intuition and scouting abilities. Watching the rep after the game, even if it takes more time at least wont teach you bad habbits. If you want to enhance your timing ask a friend to play with his vision on and try different builds that way. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
That's just really sad. And you have no proof you lose instinct and scouting abilities.... especially scouting... wtf? The whole point of Stimey's hack point is that it teaches timing. You wouldn't lose instinct, it would hone it since you watching a rep and having vision in a game is very different. | ||
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mitsy
United States1792 Posts
On January 03 2006 02:54 Beamo wrote: Just ask Testie, Trek or Selector if they think that's what made them good :/ i'm arguing not that it will make u go farther, but that it will get you there faster if u use it. And even if it helps your timing you'll lose your instinct/intuition and scouting abilities. i'm arguing the opposite, that u will be more clear about how you should scout and what you must assume and uw ill know more clearly exactly when to scout,w here, and what it's for and what it's worth Watching the rep after the game, even if it takes more time at least wont teach you bad habbits. with less effort than that u can avoid doing bad-habit causing things while hacking, and gain all the benefits i mentioned If you want to enhance your timing ask a friend to play with his vision on and try different builds that way. this is all i'm saying to do, except more convenient.... u admit this would work,t hen. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Man, you sound more and more convincing... but morals first -_-;; | ||
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On January 03 2006 02:58 SuperJongMan wrote: I don't think any respectable player should ever come close to losing if they are given vision. That's just really sad. And you have no proof you lose instinct and scouting abilities.... especially scouting... wtf? The whole point of Stimey's hack point is that it teaches timing. You wouldn't lose instinct, it would hone it since you watching a rep and having vision in a game is very different. You play this game a little ???.... Mind giving me the difference between having map hack on and the opponent giving vision ? How do you expect to not lose scouting abilities while playing with hack ? You'll lose all reflexes of searching for hidden bases since you already know he doesn't have any. You'll also lose the reflexes to adapt as fast as possible to a tech you hadn't seen coming. And you'll lose the reflexes to how and when to get a unit inside the opponents main to see what they are up to. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On January 03 2006 03:03 mitsy wrote: this is all i'm saying to do, except more convenient.... u admit this would work,t hen. Yes I think it can make you get pbetter timing but I also think you'll lose other fondamentals while doing that. And I don't see how you can avoid the bad habbits... send a probe out to scout a map exp each time you take a look at the mini map to see if he has a hidden base ? Even doing this your timing will be off since going back to not using hack your probe will see that expansion moments later then U used to with hack. (and sometimes those are the seconds that count) | ||
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Beamo
France1279 Posts
On January 03 2006 03:13 SuperJongMan wrote: Um dude, read his first post. He said flash the hack.. fuckin idiot... "provided that you turn off the hack now and then" This can also mean you play games with it off now and then not necessarily flashing it in a game. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
Zealots should be nearing or already be on meth. And terran should have comsat-ish.. The point is, you understand the timing. So in a past phase where you may have started expecting expos, you now understand that an opponant can safely expand maybe 20 seconds earlier, saving you hassle. I really don't think you can argue with Stimey, it's just a moral choice one has to make. | ||
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mitsy
United States1792 Posts
On January 03 2006 03:09 Beamo wrote: How do you expect to not lose scouting abilities while playing with hack ? You'll lose all reflexes of searching for hidden bases since you already know he doesn't have any. not necessarily. since you sitll built a knowledge base (and more quickly) of when and where to scout, you probably understand better this. reflex is pobably the wrong word. what hacking could do is let you see what kinds of things u must assume, what kinds of things u must check for. obviously u must also practice these with the hack off.. but i say u can learn them better with the hack on 80% of the time at least. You'll also lose the reflexes to adapt as fast as possible to a tech you hadn't seen coming. no, i think u would be BETTER at this. u still have to appear like a non-hacker. so u are basically waiting to be surprised. u have all the time in the world to think about how you are going to react when u suddenly get surprised by mutas if u really think ur gameplan is solid enough. so say some surprise comes at u. u have to be man enough to elt it beat you if you really dont understand how u shoulda been ready for it.. and not use the hack. with the hack u have the opportunity to cheat yourself in this way, but no one makes you do it. and then, and only then, that's what replays are for. but u can work out so many minor kinks that you wouldn't bother doing otherwise, and much more efficiently and quickly. and i argue that after u spend those 5 minutes thinking of how you're going to react to a surprise, u remember that reaction even when the hack is off. ppl who just react spur of the moment probably do a worser reaction and have to be in that situation dozens of times before they get the 5 minute thought out reaction. my response to the moral argument: if you do what i am talking about well enough, you might actually be doing your opponent the favor of providing a more skilled, more solid opponent for them than you would otherwise. i'm not talking about doing anything suspicious. if they proxy something really intelligently you have to bite the bullet and completely be surprised by it, for instance.... u cannot show hack or you're cheating yourself. in my experience, u gain more insight into early game scouting by 100 hacking (while not showing hack) games than u would by 5000 legit games. i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc. | ||
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ReTr0[p.S]
Argentina1590 Posts
On January 03 2006 03:19 mitsy wrote: i think this even carries over to other stages of the game as well, where u must decide where the best place for your army is, when to check an area, where to move your army, etc. So you think every player will do the same thing over and over again? I don't think they will, everyone plays differently, let's say you hacked in a pvp and you saw him go fast expo, you would expect the same thing in another game and rush into his expo and bam, he went 3 gate on you. | ||
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mitsy
United States1792 Posts
On January 03 2006 03:36 ReTr0[p.S] wrote: So you think every player will do the same thing over and over again? I don't think they will, everyone plays differently, let's say you hacked in a pvp and you saw him go fast expo, you would expect the same thing in another game and rush into his expo and bam, he went 3 gate on you. exactly, you would have to figure out when to scout or in situations where there is no viable scouting option u would have to decide which to guess based on which u see more often, whether it is better to assume this based on that, and so on. u might see a guy do 3 gate and then say "well i scouted him doing X Y Z, maybe i will pretend that anyone who does that is 3 gating from now on" and u see how that pans out. u have to think aobut these things a lot more. with the hack on, it's like a visual aid, u know what to hink about (when ur trying to not look like a hacker) and are constantly reminded and have much more to multitask. u have to decide how to read a 3 gate vs an expand, or how to play the middle road or play the odds. all this is much more easily apparanent with my method than staring at the fog and checking reps, so i argue u can learn faster the hacking way i am describing. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
In the expo vs 3 gate scenario, you get a goon count, and you would be able to compare early unit count differences. if you have 8 goons and he has 13, something is whack. With the hack, you'd be able to see things like that and react accordingly, and use that reaction in a real hack-free game. I personally think PvZ and ZvT would be most useful to learn off hacking simply cuz of the intuition involved in PvZ and ZvT has a lot of techattack timings. Most people have a feel for mirror matches since you should be able to tell.. it's your own race you're playing... | ||
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mitsy
United States1792 Posts
everyone has limited up time; u don't want reps to take away from that any more than they have to. reps are a value in some situations in their own right but there is much more to be gained by hacking in a game... hacking can save you time from watching reps, which means more time playing, more time thinking and learning while playing... a crutial difference in your learning curve compared to non-hack. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11586 Posts
It took me over 100 games of ZvP with a specific very good expo=> Power Hydra user until I made my own speed zealot rush. Only lately have I seen it being used ( I saw anytime do a very similar build in one of his 1.11 reps) but I think if I had a hack during the hundreds of practice Power Hydra games, I woulda been able to figure out my own rush much faster. And yeah, it used to RAPE back in the day. I rarely had PvZs longer than 15 minutes. | ||
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LastWish
2013 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12800 Posts
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RowdierBob
Australia12800 Posts
If I had a hack for poker, I could make shitloads of money, but I'd never be good at the game. You can only truly learn and be good at BW through playing copius amounts of games, identfying holes in your game and improving on them. Hacking just helps you in making the correct play at the correct time. Sure you'll win a lot, but you'll never be good in any sort of offline environment. | ||
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NovaTheFeared
United States7212 Posts
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