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is blizzard serious about making sc2 a competitive game...??? because it seems it gets more casual as time passes. i consider "star sense" a huge part of the game, being able to eye how many workers you have and timings without even looking at the clock is skill...why they removing these?
its already become so easily to defend against dt/banshee most efficiently just by looking at the clock...
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I really don't like this change. Counting workers was one of the small and amazing things that separated a good player from a great one.
Edit:
Let me clarify, I don't think it's game breaking or anything, I'll just miss that little extra multitasking.
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On June 09 2012 08:19 Defacer wrote: Let's put it this way -- you could increase the skill cap of Chess by making all the pieces white and forcing players to remember who's is what, or forcing players to move their pieces with chopsticks.
But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging.
Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level.
Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects.
Actually it is a real-time strategy (RTS) game and you do count moving units all the time, both your own and the enemies.
This is a very unnecessary addition to the game meant to make it even more casual and inviting. "improving the UI" is a terrible reason for this being implemented. Why not, then, add counters and displays to show how many of each unit you have and when future units/upgrades are finished?
Lots of clicking and interpreting information is a part of the game and a reason why Starcraft is head-and-shoulders above the cheap RTS knock-offs that have come along over the last decade.
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On June 09 2012 08:31 uSnAmplified wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:17 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 08:13 uSnAmplified wrote:On June 09 2012 08:07 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 09 2012 08:04 Batch wrote: Great change, should have been added a long time ago.
I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win. U are a stupid human being. ok mb not but maynarding workers, saturating bases perfectly is part of managing an economy, aka macro. why should players like Bomber, who put hours of work to make sure they het the perfect income at any given time get their efforts dismissed ? its like saying i dont want to see the player who split their marines better have more success, it should only be about talent, and talent is reflected by strategy. Stupid views like that piss me off so much... I didn't know counting to 24 was such a hard skill to obtain. If you trul,y can't understand how counting workers at 3-4 bases in a hectic game is an advanced skill then you are really really ignorant and know close to nothing about high level startcraft. Stop trying to be a smartass and call other people stupid when you don't understand the fundamentals of the game. No i understand it, and being a smartass is perfectly fine response when someone wants to be an obvious asshole and come up with a jackass response like the original quote. Compared to MBS and auto mine this is a extremely small change, to bitch about it at this point is just doing it for the sake of bitching and being critical about something. Counting to 24 isn't hard, the two seconds it takes you to box the workers and count lines and add for gases being minded is now replaced by taking one second to look at a number, big fucking deal. Calling me stupid, ignorant or claiming that i don't know how to play doesn't actually prove that counting to 24 is hard skill by the way, it just makes you look like a jackass.
In a real game with 3 bases. 2+2+2 = 6. 6 Seconds in a hectic high level game is significant. After this change zerg players will be able to cycle through their hatches during combat or at any other time in the game. Suddenly I can have perfect econ management at significantly lower levels of multitasking. If you don't understand this concept after I've explained this then the discussion is over because you have problems reading and comprehending simple logic.
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On June 09 2012 07:53 Embir wrote: I guess people dont understand Blizzard philosophy - all the interface changes, with the exception of Automining, were done because there werent involved any decisions when you make them - they want to remove those interface limitations and leave for players those elements where decision will be made by them. Using chees analogy - they dont want you to made figures from pieces of wood, they want you to actually play and make decisions. Basically thanks to all those changes hated by elitist, SC2 isn't game where you need brainless grind to overcome interface limitations, but where you can actualy focus on gameplan and strategy.
I love this direction.
I agree, it frees up apm so pros can use it on executing more complex strategies. The strategies in HotS are totally going to blow BW and WoL out of the water
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On June 09 2012 08:36 confusedcrib wrote: I really don't like this change. Counting workers was one of the small and amazing things that separated a good player from a great one.
I cant see someone who doenst take time to mouse over there workers in mid game taking time to click on CC and fix it.
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Eh? Is this really thread-worthy? It's like a super minor change that doesn't really change anything at all. I really don't mind either way.
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On June 09 2012 08:17 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:13 uSnAmplified wrote:On June 09 2012 08:07 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:On June 09 2012 08:04 Batch wrote: Great change, should have been added a long time ago.
I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win. U are a stupid human being. ok mb not but maynarding workers, saturating bases perfectly is part of managing an economy, aka macro. why should players like Bomber, who put hours of work to make sure they het the perfect income at any given time get their efforts dismissed ? its like saying i dont want to see the player who split their marines better have more success, it should only be about talent, and talent is reflected by strategy. Stupid views like that piss me off so much... I didn't know counting to 24 was such a hard skill to obtain. If you trul,y can't understand how counting workers at 3-4 bases in a hectic game is an advanced skill then you are really really ignorant and know close to nothing about high level startcraft. Stop trying to be a smartass and call other people stupid when you don't understand the fundamentals of the game. This is sarcasm/troll, right...?
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On June 09 2012 08:26 Gheed wrote: You still have to click and read a number. Literally the only aspect of skill this alleviates is being able to mentally multiply by 8 and subtract however many don't fill up the last line.
No. Thats like if u had an alert that tells u "build a supply depot in the 10 next second or u will be supply blocked". Its is right in front of your eyes, you dont have to force yourself to remember to do it, the game tells you to do it. Its pretty big.
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i dont think it will have much of an impact, it does make the very slightly game better for bad players but i dought they know how many workers they need to fully saturate a base anyway. those who do know will probably know how to count in the selection ui anyway. the only time i think i would find this useful is when i forget to put dudes on gas or something.
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10387 Posts
heyooo its like the MBS/Automine debate all over again
in the end nobody really gives a fuck
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On June 09 2012 08:23 AndAgain wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:19 Defacer wrote: Let's put it this way -- you could increase the skill cap of Chess by making all the pieces white and forcing players to remember who's is what, or forcing players to move their pieces with chopsticks.
But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging.
Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level.
Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects.
If you want the interface to be as simple as possible, there are lots of other things you can add. For example, an auto-produce button on any building. Obviously, we don't want the interface to either be as simply or as complex as it can be. There should be some sort of proper degree. I don't see how this simplification is desirable.
Interface -- The actual GUI -- is NOT the same as actual game design.
You're equating an aesthetic or graphic design change, which makes what's happening in the game easier to understand, with automating the game. There is a big difference.
To further the chess analogy, you believe showing the worker count is like allowing Deep Blue to make chess moves on Kasparov's behalf. It's more akin to Kasparov playing speed chess, and allowing a visible timer on the table.
We could take the minimap, resources mined and supply counts out of the game, too. All it would do is make the game ridiculously hard and unbearable for everyone but a handful of people, and DISCOURAGE mastery.
If anything, having the worker count displayed ENCOURAGES mastery, providing an basic in-game stat that players can use to perfect their play. It will make players play better, not make gameplay 'easier'.
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Well many pros still dont mine efficiently so this is amusing.
Dont like the implications. Whats next? Give us the observer functions?
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On June 09 2012 08:40 GreyKnight wrote: Well many pros still dont mine efficiently so this is amusing.
Dont like the implications. Whats next? Give us the observer functions?
i bet you they actually contemplated about that...scary thought.
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Only for spectators = great
Available in game = what the fuck, why? God damn.
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I don't like it but it's not a big deal.
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This is completely stupid. Part of the skill is to estimate how many workers you got. This is really taking things a bit too far regarding user-friendliness.
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On June 09 2012 08:37 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:19 Defacer wrote: Let's put it this way -- you could increase the skill cap of Chess by making all the pieces white and forcing players to remember who's is what, or forcing players to move their pieces with chopsticks.
But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging.
Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level.
Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects.
Actually it is a real-time strategy (RTS) game and you do count moving units all the time, both your own and the enemies. This is a very unnecessary addition to the game meant to make it even more casual and inviting. "improving the UI" is a terrible reason for this being implemented. Why not, then, add counters and displays to show how many of each unit you have and when future units/upgrades are finished? Lots of clicking and interpreting information is a part of the game and a reason why Starcraft is head-and-shoulders above the cheap RTS knock-offs that have come along over the last decade.
yea seriously why not make a production tab of your own units in game. its the direction this change is taking that upsets me the most, and i think a good number of ppl who are unhappy with it feel the same way. competitive rts isnt about getting spoon fed...
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On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote:On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote: lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. roflol!
OT: I don't see the problem with this change. It gives you information, that's all, doesn't help you micro or make decisions. Or are you one of those people who think less information = better? So let's remove things like supply counts and mineral shrinking animation and upgrade progress and game timer and no. of resources because clearly a good player would be able to keep track of all of these and we don't need to make the game any easier!!
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