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Censured
Czech Republic1060 Posts
Poll: Do you like it? No (828) Yes (537) 1365 total votes Your vote: Do you like it? EDIT: On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote: This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. | ||
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Esk23
United States447 Posts
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raf3776
United States1904 Posts
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VPCursed
1044 Posts
I mean, you guys are really completely missing the idea of a strategy game when you get in an uproar about this shit. | ||
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G4rrett
England124 Posts
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Daralii
United States16991 Posts
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:18 Daralii wrote: I'd suggest everyone calm the fuck down when we don't even know if it's only for spectators. Quite important, too. | ||
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Cokefreak
Finland8095 Posts
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fraktoasters
United States617 Posts
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Mr Showtime
United States1353 Posts
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Antiochus
Canada548 Posts
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marcesr
Germany1383 Posts
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Ghostcom
Denmark4782 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:18 Daralii wrote: I'd suggest everyone calm the fuck down when we don't even know if it's only for spectators. What this man (or woman) says - hold your horses... | ||
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WIllBIll
590 Posts
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Cainam
United States421 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:09 Cainam wrote: I don't see the worker count on the Nexus/CC/Hatch being a big deal. I'm not even a good player (Diamond) and I can tell when I need to transfer workers just by looking at the mining pattern. This'll help bronzies and make no difference for people at the top level. Good change. | ||
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Why not just remove bases entirely and make it something more like CoH/DoW? One of the nice things is when you have 50 workers and your opponent has 70, and you have more income on 3 base vs 3 based because you're sensible enough to spread your workers. Less babying, more skill and thinking please. And it will make a difference on the top levels, because you can see in various games that people don't have optimal saturation quite often, especially later on when they are focused on other things and have less time to check bases, or have more bases to check. | ||
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Testuser
6469 Posts
For the "noobs" it'll help them known if they've saturated their bases. For the pros... I really doubt they care at all. Honestly, why would they care? So basically, it makes a difference only for people that don't know how to check if their base is saturated. Not a big deal. | ||
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Destro
Netherlands1206 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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mrtomjones
Canada4020 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:19 marcesr wrote: This is a bad idea. For casuals its totally pointless how many workers they have on a mineral line and for competitive players you shouldnt make the game easier if it doesnt have any advantage for the gameplay. How is it pointless? This will only really change the casuals gameplay. It isnt like all casuals are completely retarded. | ||
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pzea469
United States1520 Posts
The truth is that this is something convenient and it makes sense to have this info displayed. And you will never lose or win a game purely because of this. | ||
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ShadowDrgn
United States2497 Posts
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CrazyF1r3f0x
United States2120 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:18 Daralii wrote: I'd suggest everyone calm the fuck down when we don't even know if it's only for spectators. This is good advice in general. For everything really. | ||
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TheChostoProject
Mexico96 Posts
Blizzard just doesnt get it. We need to have a lot of mundane and hard tasks in the game that can keep us clicking all over the place to hide the fact there's literally ZERO strategy in the game. I was hoping that in HOTS they would finally remove MBS, automine, smart cast, and cap the selected units to 12. When will they learn?? | ||
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imMUTAble787
United States680 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:13 Censured wrote: I already made a post in HOTS Info updates but I think this change deserve its own thread(if not close this please) So basicly now in HOTS your main buildings(nexus, hatch, cc) now display number of worker on your mineral fields+gas? What do you guys think? Poll: Do you like it? No (828) Yes (537) 1365 total votes Your vote: Do you like it? I personally don't like it very much. It makes it a LOT easier to know when to transfer workers to a new base, but on the other hand that's exactly what a skilled player should check all the time, spent some APM on it etc, It makes quite a difference if your saturation is perfect or your base is over/under saturated. Now EVERYONE would have a perfect saturation in every base. You don't even know if its spectator only. | ||
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sunprince
United States2258 Posts
Unlike MBS, which actually changes macro, this does absolutely nothing. All it accomplishes is giving information that is redundant to everyone except for casual noobs. | ||
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garlicface
Canada4196 Posts
Good change, spectator or in-game. | ||
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sekalf
Sweden522 Posts
As others have said, it wont change a thing at high level play so why bitch about it? There will be plenty more micro intensive things to do with the new units so overall the game will definitely be harder to play after hots. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
Seems like HOTS is moving away from base management and more into unit management/micro. | ||
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Arco
United States2090 Posts
From a competitive standpoint, I dislike it. The vespene geyser change is way different than this. Keep this for spectator only, please! | ||
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EscapingJail
United States212 Posts
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
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Kluey
Canada1197 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:20 Testuser wrote: I don't think it'll make any difference. For the "noobs" it'll help them known if they've saturated their bases. For the pros... I really doubt they care at all. Honestly, why would they care? So basically, it makes a difference only for people that don't know how to check if their base is saturated. Not a big deal. It's taking one of the skills that you have to learn away from the game. Destiny when coaches always tells his students to ctrl+click his drones and keep checking. Even Diamond players sometimes forget to do that. If all they have to do is click their hatch, it becomes much easier. | ||
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SiN]
United States540 Posts
this is clearly the worst lets all complain about something that everyone can easily see in the first place | ||
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LotV
Canada24 Posts
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Sufinsil
United States760 Posts
Try to keep tabs that way if I have to few or to many. | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:21 ShadowDrgn wrote: This is one of those tiny things that no one is going to complain about when HotS is released. Exactly my thought. I am all for play difficulty but this is in the same arena as MBS and auto-mine which were predicted to ruin the game. IMO if a player has 300 APM I want to see it in the battlefield and army production not in moving miners to minerals or checking saturation 20 times. If Blizzard listened to the community on these issues we would have to enter the Konami code to select a unit or building and have no hotkeys because "only the pros should be able to do anything". | ||
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Michaels
419 Posts
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[17]Purple
United Kingdom3489 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:18 Daralii wrote: I'd suggest everyone calm the fuck down when we don't even know if it's only for spectators. I would like to echo the sentiments of this man (or anything else) | ||
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Eee
Sweden2712 Posts
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MCXD
Australia2738 Posts
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WightyCity
Canada887 Posts
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NeonFox
2373 Posts
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Alacast
United States205 Posts
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Skullflower
United States3779 Posts
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Malinor
Germany4727 Posts
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Lightswarm
Canada966 Posts
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Serimek
France2274 Posts
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ProxyKnoxy
United Kingdom2576 Posts
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zezamer
Finland5701 Posts
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shineq
United Kingdom1453 Posts
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
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AcesAnoka
Belgium262 Posts
Also if you guys so want to play a more difficult game go play sc2 with a joystick or go to bw... | ||
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NEXUS6
United States413 Posts
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pt
United States813 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:15 Esk23 wrote: Terrible idea, why doesn't Blizzard implement something that automatically mircos your army perfectly too. don't see how this is even worth complaining about. or are you only doing so because you can? | ||
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Dundron2000
Sweden1140 Posts
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
If you think a change as small as this is going to magically make a Diamond Player beat a High Master's player, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. | ||
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
But i don't really see why not. | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Druzal
United States25 Posts
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:20 pzea469 wrote: As if it takes that much skill to count them. If anything it just removes that annoyance. In that case let's remove the game timer and also the life bars, since skilled players should be able to have the game time in their heads and also have the units selected to see how much damage their taking instead of it being displayed easily to them. The truth is that this is something convenient and it makes sense to have this info displayed. And you will never lose or win a game purely because of this. Pro gamers complained that the clock made the game too easy when it came up. They will complain about this as well. It would also "make sense and be convenient" that the game warns you when your queen has enough energy for an inject or when your command center is ready to drop a mule but it would still make the game worse. If it's an observer thing, fine, that makes it easier to notice mistakes when you are skimming through your replays. If it's a gamer thing, it's bad. On June 09 2012 06:38 Druzal wrote: There is no pro that will suddenly be better than his peers because of this. There is no person that is not a pro that will suddenly be a pro because of this. This simply eases the curve at lower leagues. Why do people complain when the overall skill cap is not lowered? Because the overall skill cap is lowered (even by a little). We still see pros over-saturate bases, have idle workers, forget overlord,etc. And they get rightfully behind the players who don't make those mistakes. | ||
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Zaros
United Kingdom3692 Posts
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[17]Purple
United Kingdom3489 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:37 Dundron2000 wrote: jesus christ.. they need to make this game more difficult not easier......!!!! Its a fucking strategy game not the who can press the thingy fastest game (though there is an aspect of that in the game as well). Making the game mechanically easier while not affecting the Stategy or Tactics involved in it is always a plus. If you wanted the game to be harder, make it so that you can click only one you unit at a time all the time, that will make the game hard. | ||
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BraneSC2
United States123 Posts
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Kevinshi3
United States148 Posts
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robih
Austria1086 Posts
"mimimimi sc2 such a noob game. make it more casual blabla" ridicolous as everytime when blizzard introduces an improvement for the interface | ||
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[17]Purple
United Kingdom3489 Posts
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Josh_rakoons
United Kingdom1158 Posts
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MajorityofOne
Canada2506 Posts
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Mikelius
Germany517 Posts
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LittLeD
Sweden7973 Posts
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Chill
Calgary25980 Posts
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dae
Canada1600 Posts
I really don't understand what the fuss is about. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:16 VPCursed wrote: ok so i guess a semi pro has to come in and set this to rest. I was GM many seasons and I can assure you that this change has absolutely 0 fucking effect on anything.. People at my level and pros especially can easily glimpse at the mineral line... not even dragging our mineral line to see how many workers we have. I mean, you guys are really completely missing the idea of a strategy game when you get in an uproar about this shit. Youj are so wrong its not even funny. I watched Nesteas stream for 3 hours today. In every game he missmanaged his economy slightly. As do almost all pros that play now. The notion that all pro gamers have perfect macro and economy management is ludicrous. They are not even close at this point. Someone like Bomber, Marineking or DRG are close but if you watched ttheir streams you would know that even they make these mistakes in every game. I have honestly never watched a streamer make every single worker transfer perfectly. There are probably some people that focus more on it than others but when the top koreans even mess it up then no argument can be made that this is allready being done perfectly. To add this would basically make every progamer have perfect econ management when some are not supposed to. Evem master players like myself will have better econ management than pro gamers have now if this change enters the game. Really really bad idea. | ||
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Kaw
United States73 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:42 Josh_rakoons wrote: Anything that decreases the skill requirement to play the game, at a high level, is ALWAYS a bad thing, i'm hoping its just a replay feature, in that case, it's definitely a very nice feature. I agree, control groups are bad and hotkeys are bad and the ability to plug a monitor into your computer is bad too. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
I like it for noobs, i personally would feel ashamed of myself if i had to select my CC for that info. For my personal taste base macro could be a bit easier in sc2, because i could micro the hell out of my army some more. But thats preference and at the end you can't make everyone happy, but right now sc2 is keeping a good balance there i think. And this change will not affect it, just make it a lil easier for our casual gamers. So obviously most in here will be against it, because it helps others while ignoring them ! | ||
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AcesAnoka
Belgium262 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:39 Diavlo wrote: Pro gamers complained that the clock made the game too easy when it came up. They will complain about this as well. It would also "make sense and be convenient" that the game warns you when your queen has enough energy for an inject or when your command center is ready to drop a mule but it would still make the game worse. If it's an observer thing, fine, that makes it easier to notice mistakes when you are skimming through your replays. If it's a gamer thing, it's bad. you cannot compare this to an alert of mule, inject,supplyblock,... It's just doesn't have the same impact. Also I have yet to see any pro making way too much workers and not immediately noticing it. It doesn't affect the game on pro level AT ALL. The only place I can see making a difference is leagues below dia. It's really not that bad... | ||
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
After the fight, let's say he's too busy, or he perceives himself too busy to check, and it turns out he has 13 mining instead, or 12, or maybe 26 are left, who knows... regardless, this situation doesn't play itself out if this decision stays in the game. | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
If you don't like it that much, have it an option that can be turned off in game options, and have a clause in LAN Tournaments that if a player is going to compete, they have to have the option turned off. Make it visible under the Player Cam if you are spectating to enforce it, and GG. But seriously, out of all the things to complain about? I'd much rather see a thread about 22 Range Tempest then this next to nothing change... | ||
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Jono7272
United Kingdom6330 Posts
 Not liking this change. | ||
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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Kamwah
United Kingdom724 Posts
You cant balance gimmicks! | ||
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
I like it ... The worker counting is sort of tedious and annoying. And I don't see how the skill of boxing your workers matters. It's an annoying part of the opening where the real skill comes forward in the mid and late game. Sure it will help in the opening but who cares? Hence, again, why it should stay in there. As I said, After the fight, let's say he's too busy, or he perceives himself too busy to check, and it turns out he has 13 mining instead, or 12, or maybe 26 are left, who knows... regardless, this situation doesn't play itself out if this decision stays in the game. | ||
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Kaw
United States73 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:47 Ero-Sennin wrote: Think of this scenario. Guy is transferring probes and setting both rallies to his natural, but he's also being attacked so he can't go back to his main and check to see if he has 16 mining. After the fight, let's say he's too busy, or he perceives himself too busy to check, and it turns out he has 13 mining instead, or 12, or maybe 26 are left, who knows... regardless, this situation doesn't play itself out if this decision stays in the game. Except players still need to be aware of it. Your supply limit is always visible on your UI. That doesn't stop players from getting supply blocked. | ||
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HexSCII
Canada115 Posts
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chebhe
United States113 Posts
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Meteora.GB
Canada2479 Posts
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JerKy
Korea (South)3013 Posts
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illumn
New Zealand437 Posts
Or do people really think this will somehow boost some bad players into GM? | ||
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
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Ero-Sennin
United States756 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:50 Kaw wrote: Except players still need to be aware of it. Your supply limit is always visible on your UI. That doesn't stop players from getting supply blocked. What you just said makes absolutely zero sense because they are two completely unrelated things. Supply cap is different than miners mining minerals. You click on the nexus and it says "You have 14 probes on minerals" Oh, so I'll just add two more. That's it. Edited: I'm aware this isn't a game changer and it won't affect the higher levels but for fuck's sake, stop making the game easier just because you can! Just... stop! No one wants that. | ||
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Windwaker
Germany1597 Posts
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nucLeaRTV
Romania822 Posts
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ChaosArcher
Germany956 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:18 Daralii wrote: I'd suggest everyone calm the fuck down when we don't even know if it's only for spectators. This! + it would be interesting to know if you can see the opponents worker count on his nat for example, by clicking on his Hatch/CC/Nexus. This would actually help people to recognize timing pushes/all ins, because if you scout with a ling for example, you often have other things to do then counting workers, altough its pretty important. | ||
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NotSorry
United States6722 Posts
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:53 Ero-Sennin wrote: What you just said makes absolutely zero sense because they are two completely unrelated things. Supply cap is different than miners mining minerals. You click on the nexus and it says "You have 14 probes on minerals" Oh, so I'll just add two more. That's it. Or just box your workers and see you have 14? It's just as easy. | ||
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discator
Germany639 Posts
Making the basic mechanics easier managable and still create high level micro challenges is somthing Blizzard has done a good joob IMO. nice job, I'm very excited for Heart of the Swarm. edit: spelling ~ | ||
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coolcor
520 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
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Kaw
United States73 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:53 Ero-Sennin wrote: What you just said makes absolutely zero sense because they are two completely unrelated things. Supply cap is different than miners mining minerals. You click on the nexus and it says "You have 14 probes on minerals" Oh, so I'll just add two more. That's it. Its exactly the same thing. You look at your food count oh I'm 5 away from being capped I'll add two pylons. Its not like this transfers workers for the player. The player still needs to be aware of how his base is mining. | ||
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pStar
996 Posts
Its something to help newer players manage economy player. Pros already know how to do this by selecting anyway, its ingrained in their mechanics. No obvious advantage at all, just a little helping hand for newer players  | ||
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BRaegO
United States243 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:54 Windwaker wrote: GoOdy will be happy AHAHAHAHAHA too funny :D | ||
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Mesha
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
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pallad
Poland1958 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:20 Destro wrote: this has no effect on anyone masters and up tbh This . Every good players are just select all workes , and count it in 2-3 sec ? , or even one sec so... Why this is bad ? , its gonna help weak players , for good players nothing is changed. On June 09 2012 06:56 StarBrift wrote: Jesus christ can people stop saying this wont affect higher levels? Pro gamers a NO WHERE CLOSE to actually managing their economy perfectly. You are so silly.... every pro , or even master player can duble click on workers to count them. | ||
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roym899
Germany426 Posts
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:56 StarBrift wrote: Jesus christ can people stop saying this wont affect higher levels? Pro gamers a NO WHERE CLOSE to actually managing their economy perfectly. And they still won't be. The point isn't that they have perfect economic management. It's that the limiting factor isn't ever an inability to figure out how many workers are at a particular base. | ||
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TheTenthDoc
United States9561 Posts
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dotEXE
Netherlands41 Posts
From a casual perspective this feature is great. It makes it easier for new players to hop in and have a little bit of direction in what they're doing. Lowering skillcap this way essentially opens the game up for a larger crowd. It can be seen as a small effort in trying to minimize the bleed of active players every season. The games you suck at the most are the least fun to play normally. From a more competitive perspective this might be a useless feature, possibly even bad. I think this feature will effectively lower the skillcap for what is considered the upper echelons of the starcraft scene. It gives players with less skill an advantage over more skilled players who have absolutely no need for this feature. My fear is that there will be a wave of players riding on features like this to create a storm in the pro scene. Current pro-gamers will suddenly face players who are obviously less skilled, but have their play elevated by built in features. This goes against my view of gamebalance, where each player gets the same benefit from all ingame features. On a totally unrelated and completely unfounded rant: If these kind of features do get through, when do you think we will see AI assisted micro? A for attack move, M for regular move, F for follow, P for patrol and S for split move? | ||
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blooblooblahblah
Australia4163 Posts
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Kaw
United States73 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:00 dotEXE wrote: On a totally unrelated and completely unfounded rant: If these kind of features do get through, when do you think we will see AI assisted micro? A for attack move, M for regular move, F for follow, P for patrol and S for split move? This isn't something that plays the game for you. All it does is give the player more information. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:59 aristarchus wrote: And they still won't be. The point isn't that they have perfect economic management. It's that the limiting factor isn't ever an inability to figure out how many workers are at a particular base. Sure they will. In serious games there will be no excuse to not have the perfect ammount of workers at your bases in teh early game. There will be something like 10k players in the world that can manage early to midgame economy as good as the top pros. Do you seriously think that's good for competition? | ||
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Nokshalees
United States120 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:59 pallad wrote: This . Every good players are just select all workes , and count it in 2-3 sec ? , or even one sec so... Why this is bad ? , its gonna help weak players , for good players nothing is changed. You say that like it's a good thing | ||
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hzflank
United Kingdom2991 Posts
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SecondSandwich
United States319 Posts
I think it is silly to complain about this making the game easier. This is just a different way to represent the same information. The player still needs to make all the same decisions and judgments on how to manage economy, etc. | ||
Olli
Austria24417 Posts
I actually think it's good for quickly evaluating how many workers were lost in an attack. It might help with making decisions fast, such as for example the decision to all in if you lost too much. I'm fine with it overall. It's not like it's gonna make a difference helping a bad player win against somebody who's better. | ||
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pallad
Poland1958 Posts
Sure its a good thing , maby more casual players will now stick with sc2 and got more interesting with the game. Every game change that helps casual players on ladder in good for Sc2 , its dont affect players in diamond + , even when i play i count drones with double click and im top 5 diamond player. More players play the better for Sc2 grown , and the community. | ||
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Leetley
1796 Posts
Edit: Actually if you all your bases hotkey'd invidually, then it makes macro way easier. In this case I don't like the change. | ||
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:02 StarBrift wrote: Sure they will. In serious games there will be no excuse to not have the perfect ammount of workers at your bases in teh early game. There will be something like 10k players in the world that can manage early to midgame economy as good as the top pros. Do you seriously think that's good for competition? What do you think is causing all those people to have poor economy management now? Do you think they look at a base and can't figure out if it's saturated or not? Do you think the APM needed to box the workers is so high they can't do it, but the APM needed to click on the nexus will be really easy? I think it's actually about the mental ability to keep track of lots of things at the same time and not forget it, and that's not changing at all. | ||
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CajunMan
United States823 Posts
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SecondSandwich
United States319 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:56 StarBrift wrote: Jesus christ can people stop saying this wont affect higher levels? Pro gamers a NO WHERE CLOSE to actually managing their economy perfectly. This change would not have any effect on managing your economy. It only tells you the number of workers you have mining, a number that everyone already has access to (by selecting the workers and counting them). | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
If this is a gameplay mechanic, hell no. | ||
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JackDT
724 Posts
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Harris1st
Germany6924 Posts
everyone said, oh so easy, but now it's just there and nobody cares | ||
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:54 nucLeaRTV wrote: Starcraft 2: No micro intended. Because boxing your workers and clicking your CC are very different APM-wise. + Show Spoiler + they're not | ||
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di3alot
172 Posts
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chocopan
Japan986 Posts
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Thylacine
Sweden882 Posts
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dotEXE
Netherlands41 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:02 Kaw wrote: This isn't something that plays the game for you. All it does is give the player more information. True, but also takes away a small bit of work from the player. Like I said, it is completely unfounded and just wild ranting, and I don't believe it wil actually come to such an absurd situation, but you have to wonder where thoughts of simplifying the game may lead if taken overboard. | ||
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pallad
Poland1958 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:07 aristarchus wrote: What do you think is causing all those people to have poor economy management now? Do you think they look at a base and can't figure out if it's saturated or not? Do you think the APM needed to box the workers is so high they can't do it, but the APM needed to click on the nexus will be really easy? I think it's actually about the mental ability to keep track of lots of things at the same time and not forget it, and that's not changing at all. You are wrong. Economy is not only counting workers , its APM also . Some of players in minus diamond leagues , are even afraid to take third base , because they dont have skill to defend it etc.. | ||
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Regorr
306 Posts
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:16 VPCursed wrote: ok so i guess a semi pro has to come in and set this to rest. I was GM many seasons and I can assure you that this change has absolutely 0 fucking effect on anything.. People at my level and pros especially can easily glimpse at the mineral line... not even dragging our mineral line to see how many workers we have. I mean, you guys are really completely missing the idea of a strategy game when you get in an uproar about this shit. I am so very glad that even people on your level see it this way. Because all the people that are against these things want to make themselves look like the saviours of e-sports. And meanwhile, the real e-sports people do not give a shit. That really tells a lot. Sadly, the one-line "ohno, you are making our precious difficult game easier" comments continue for many, many pages. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:07 aristarchus wrote: What do you think is causing all those people to have poor economy management now? Do you think they look at a base and can't figure out if it's saturated or not? Do you think the APM needed to box the workers is so high they can't do it, but the APM needed to click on the nexus will be really easy? I think it's actually about the mental ability to keep track of lots of things at the same time and not forget it, and that's not changing at all. The time difference between boxing 2-3 bases and counting workers to just clicking a building is atleast 2-3 seconds per base. It will cut this mechanic from 10 sec down to say 4 on a 3 base economy. This means you can count workers in battle. If someone went back to his bases to count workers in battle in this current build he would lose all his units in the process. Now you will be able to do it after sending in units for a big battle, while dropping someone, while scouting a base and keeping an eye on the minimap. The difference will be HUGE for anyone that plays the game at a higher level. | ||
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howLiN
Portugal1676 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:11 pallad wrote: You are wrong. Economy is not only counting workers , its APM also . Some of players in minus diamond leagues , are even afraid to take third base , because they dont have skill to defend it etc.. And what exactly does that have to do with having the number of workers displayed on the building? | ||
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Selkie
United States530 Posts
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MentalGNT
Denmark1264 Posts
I have a feeling that this will go the same way. | ||
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Nisyax
Netherlands756 Posts
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Astraar
Germany7 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:13 Selkie wrote: How does this make the game easier at the highest level? All it does is raise the skill floor. Masters, and I'm for it. Read my previous post. To clarify also. The problems that pro gamers have with econ management now are small. It doesn't make them lose tons of minerals. Its something like keeping 2 drones over saturation and things like that. But the point is that if you make the management perfect then suddenly everyone willl be able to perform perfect all ins and timing pushes. Drone counting was pretty much the only thing that separated a player with more multitasking from a low-mid master player in terms of econ management. | ||
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Apus
New Zealand74 Posts
It seems interesting from a caster and spectators POV to have instant access to that sort of info. From the players POV, I'd be fighting tooth and nail to make sure one of those little things that separates a good player from a great player stays in the game. A change like this is probably the opposite of what Blizzard wants to do, imo. I don't think this will help the low level players at all, as they are making far bigger mistakes than saturating properly. For pros this is a much bigger change as proper saturation is actually huge for the high level. | ||
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LRObot
United States153 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:14 MentalGNT wrote: I think it will end up like when blizzard introduced alerts for larvae spawns and mule deaths. Everyone was saying that blizzard was dumbing down the game and that it would make the game way too easy. In the end it ended up not making a difference to anyone above silver. I have a feeling that this will go the same way. Alerts are different. They come ones and you're usually too busy to notice them. A counter that you can look at when ever you have time is way more effective than anything like that. | ||
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Shodaa
Canada404 Posts
Anyone knows if this counter change if the number of mineral patch is or the number of vespene geyser is different ? Or is just a static number ? (like on gold base with less mineral patch or base with an high yield gas) | ||
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Gsk
8 Posts
Makes it ALOT easier for completely fresh players, no difference for decent players. | ||
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BlackGosu
Canada1046 Posts
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supdubdup
United States916 Posts
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Kingy604
United Kingdom54 Posts
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Norzma
Sweden160 Posts
Its not even like the workers transfer themselves if you have to many so you will still see if you are oversaturated without even clicking the base. | ||
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Fischbacher
Canada666 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:21 Norzma wrote: I dont understand the difference between boxing your workers and QUICKLY glance at how many you have, and clicking your base to see worker count, its literally no apm difference at all. Its not even like the workers transfer themselves if you have to many so you will still see if you are oversaturated without even clicking the base. Glancing at your worker line for less than a second is not a reliable way to get exact worker counts. Most people that dont box worker have 3-5 too many per base in the early game. That's a considerable loss in income. | ||
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Carras
Argentina860 Posts
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zmansman17
United States2567 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:18 Daralii wrote: I'd suggest everyone calm the fuck down when we don't even know if it's only for spectators. Best post so far since we don't have enough information to cast judgment. | ||
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Fabozi
Slovakia336 Posts
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:25 Fischbacher wrote: How is this a bad change? The only league it really affects is bronze league. Let the casuals have their fun, guys Why would this affect low level players? Low level players dont even know how many workers they should have at each base. Even if they did know they dont have the mechanics to optimize their income anyway. This ONLY applies at higher levels wheree people are close to doing it perfectly. They will all now do it perfectly (assuming they know / care about doing it). | ||
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-stOpSKY-
Canada498 Posts
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mrafaeldie12
Brazil537 Posts
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
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ejozl
Denmark3380 Posts
Think this is really nice, it's basically the same as geyser worker count on assimilator. People who hate this change are probably people who also hated the ingame timer change. HOWEVER, it really looked stupid how it was displayed, can't see why it's not just showed exactly like how your geyser shows how many are in gas... | ||
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how2TL
1197 Posts
Calm the hell down, this won't change anything. | ||
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willoc
Canada1530 Posts
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Darksoldierr
Hungary2012 Posts
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Hiea
Denmark1538 Posts
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
Why so much complaining? | ||
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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:32 jidolboy wrote: By the time we get to third expansion, I am willing to bet there will be auto chrono,inject and mule. People then will be saying that it'll only help Bronze league because any good players know when to chrono,inject or mule. lol I'll bet you $1,000,000 they don't. | ||
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CrayonPopChoa
Canada761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:30 how2TL wrote: Of all the changes made to SC2 that made it mechanically easier than BW, this is by far one of the least significant. Calm the hell down, this won't change anything. Exactly lol it is pretty hypocritical thinking if you are against this but are okay with all the other changes that made this game easier. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
Why not? They are catering low leauge players so I dont see why they wouldnt | ||
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Jakkerr
Netherlands2549 Posts
It doesn't affect the proscene but it helps the casualscene. More of these plx | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
Good work on this Blizz. I like the change. | ||
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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:32 jidolboy wrote: By the time we get to third expansion, I am willing to bet there will be auto chrono,inject and mule. People then will be saying that it'll only help Bronze league because any good players know when to chrono,inject or mule. lol No, that's just not true. It's much easier to count how many harvesters you may have in a base (and if you're not sure you can box it) than it is to inject, mule and chrono with every one of your bases. Also these buildings/queen have other abilities, so it's just no. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:34 jidolboy wrote: Why not? They are catering low leauge players so I dont see why they wouldnt Okay, I will keep this recorded and we will see who wins the $1,000,000. Actually, we can make it a billion if you wish. | ||
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Alacast
United States205 Posts
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CruelZeratul
Germany4588 Posts
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:34 jidolboy wrote: Why not? They are catering low leauge players so I dont see why they wouldnt So by that logic, now that you can rally units from a barracks to an enemy unit and have it attack without any other control, we can probably expect Blizzard to introduce an auto army micro feature later on? | ||
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Zhou
United States832 Posts
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:32 FinestHour wrote: Makes no difference at high level of play, and helps out lower level players. Why so much complaining? Because there is whole bunch of elitist jerks, who thinks that SC2 should be as user unfriendly and should have as terible interface that only the most devoted of all should be able to play this game properly. | ||
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Bagi
Germany6799 Posts
*rabble rabble rabble* Honestly though, I don't see it changing much for pros. Instead of boxing your mineral line you click on your main building to see your worker count. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:35 Kezzer wrote: So by that logic, now that you can rally units from a barracks to an enemy unit and have it attack without any other control, we can probably expect Blizzard to introduce an auto army micro feature later on? Apparently the logical next step from helping out bronze players is to turn the entire game into an autopilot AI. Blizzard is just massively incompetent at everything they do and are ruining esports. | ||
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Kezzer
United States1268 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:37 Bagi wrote: They're dumbing down the game again! Automine! MBS! *rabble rabble rabble* Honestly though, I don't see it changing much for pros. Instead of boxing your mineral line you click on your main building to see your worker count. but its killing ESPORTS!!1!!111! | ||
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MetalPanda
Canada1152 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:36 Zhou wrote: I really don't think its necessary. My friend did bring up that it really doesn't affect how the pros play, as they do this seemingly, but it makes it a lot easier for new players, or those of us who play casually. I would rather not have it in the game, maybe out of elitism but I guess its unavoidable to having a bigger player base, which is I'm sure what Blizzard wants. I would prefer people teaching themselves, but eh... I voted no, I would rather not have it. Guess why League of Legends is that popular? It's much easier to learn and get into. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:35 Kezzer wrote: So by that logic, now that you can rally units from a barracks to an enemy unit and have it attack without any other control, we can probably expect Blizzard to introduce an auto army micro feature later on? We might have something similar to that. Just look at MBS. It helps people macro better | ||
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TT1
Canada10009 Posts
http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/us8kz/enought_is_enought_blizzard_plz_stop_newbiefiying/ "First it was MBS and MUS, then it was autocast and then it was the ingame timer. Blizzard has constantly been adding useless gameplay mechanics to SC2 in order to make it as newbi-friendly as possible. Their latest addition is a worker count system that automaticly shows you the number of workers that you have per base. Changes like this add NOTHING to the game in terms of gameplay, in fact all it does is remove skill/mechanics from it. Alot of you may think that this change isnt really that big of a deal and that im overblowing this whole situation but if we let Blizzard have it their way we're going to end up with a game where the fucking AI does all the work for us by 2015. What pisses me off the most is that instead of focusing on adding skill/mechanics to the game Blizzard has constantly been doing the opposite by trying to "newbifie" SC2. Well fuck enought is enought, if they don't want to promote skill then thats fine but the LEAST that they can do is to stop adding useless BS to our game. Now i dont know how the rest of you feel about all this but if you share the same sentiment as me lets please start a petition and have them revert the change. Gotta show 'em whos boss. Oh yea and heres the video where you can see the automatic worker count: , fast-forward to 4:20." btw i heard that this might be an obs feature only | ||
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skeldark
Germany2223 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:38 mTwTT1 wrote: i didnt want to make a post about this on tl cus ive been whining too much lately :S, so i made one on reddit instead : D http://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/us8kz/enought_is_enought_blizzard_plz_stop_newbiefiying/ "First it was MBS and MUS, then it was autocast and then it was the ingame timer. Blizzard has constantly been adding useless gameplay mechanics to SC2 in order to make it as newbi-friendly as possible. Their latest addition is a worker count system that automaticly shows you the number of workers that you have per base. Changes like this add NOTHING to the game in terms of gameplay, in fact all it does is remove skill/mechanics from it. Alot of you may think that this change isnt really that big of a deal and that im overblowing this whole situation but if we let Blizzard have it their way we're going to end up with a game where the fucking AI does all the work for us by 2015. What pisses me off the most is that instead of focusing on adding skill/mechanics to the game Blizzard has constantly been doing the opposite by trying to "newbifie" SC2. Well fuck enought is enought, if they don't want to promote skill then thats fine but the LEAST that they can do is to stop adding useless BS to our game. Now i dont know how the rest of you feel about all this but if you share the same sentiment as me lets please start a petition and have them revert the change. Gotta show 'em whos boss. Oh yea and heres the video where you can see the automatic worker count: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0gcs52bErU4 , fast-forward to 4:20." btw i heard that this might be an obs feature only I know it looks big for you , but for us who are able to count its no big change. edit: i think i just got trolled | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
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aristarchus
United States652 Posts
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GreEny K
Germany7312 Posts
Pros know how many workers they have and how many workers they should have at most given times. I don't see this making a difference in an aspect... The people who think this is useful for them won't become good because of this ability.. PS-- Pros don't box their workers to count them, they do it to get their APM up and ready for the rest of the game... | ||
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:32 FinestHour wrote: Makes no difference at high level of play, and helps out lower level players. Why so much complaining? because COMPLAINING.... people effing always complain, no matter what. good change for once blizz. now give us lan | ||
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NKexquisite
United States911 Posts
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D4V3Z02
Germany693 Posts
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JitnikoVi
Russian Federation396 Posts
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Kala23
Germany230 Posts
I primarily just watch the game. Why the hell should i be concerned with small stuff like this. Being able to check your worker numbers slightly better than your opponent doesn't add anything to the viewer experience On the other hand if any of those surplus APMs were used to micro better or make cool moves more often, games would be more exciting. Great players will find ways to apply their superior speed and accuracy in other ways. | ||
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MicroTastiC
375 Posts
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:45 Fenrax wrote: because COMPLAINING.... people effing always complain, no matter what. good change for once blizz. now give us lan Yeah its complaining. So what? Customers complain when a company makes a product worse than it used to be. Usually companies then try to meet the customers needs. It's not ungrateful to complain about a product you paid money for. Serious companies want people to complain when there's something wrong with their product so that they can make it better. Blizzard is a company that takes pride in listening to the community and will be prepared for complaints. Its a natural part of buisness. Stop being outraged about something natural and completely acceptable. | ||
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baldgye
United Kingdom1092 Posts
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pookums
151 Posts
The main problem is that it looks like shit. It is completely unnecessary clutter added to the interface. If there's an option where we can disable it then I really don't care if it gets put in or not. | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
I love this direction. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:51 StarBrift wrote: Yeah its complaining. So what? Customers complain when a company makes a product worse than it used to be. Usually companies then try to meet the customers needs. It's not ungrateful to complain about a product you paid money for. Serious companies want people to complain when there's something wrong with their product so that they can make it better. Blizzard is a company that takes pride in listening to the community and will be prepared for complaints. Its a natural part of buisness. Stop being outraged about something natural and completely acceptable. Because it's illogical complaining. People aren't even thinking of any actual negative ramifications, they're just posting in outrage about nothing. That's not helpful community feedback, it's people being elitist saying the UI is being dumbed down when this only helps casual players get into the game easier. This is not going to affect any remotely high level play in any whatsoever and just makes people in the lower spectrum have a bit of an easier time playing a game that can be overwhelming to them. | ||
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YouMake
United States262 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:51 StarBrift wrote: Yeah its complaining. So what? Customers complain when a company makes a product worse than it used to be. Usually companies then try to meet the customers needs. It's not ungrateful to complain about a product you paid money for. Serious companies want people to complain when there's something wrong with their product so that they can make it better. Blizzard is a company that takes pride in listening to the community and will be prepared for complaints. Its a natural part of buisness. Stop being outraged about something natural and completely acceptable. I don't know if you play Magic the Gathering but EVERY FUCKING EDITION magic DIES because something new is introduced... I have to read this exact thread~ 2-3 times a year. | ||
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MrMatt
Canada225 Posts
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:53 Heavenlee wrote: Because it's illogical complaining. People aren't even thinking of any actual negative ramifications, they're just posting in outrage about nothing. That's not helpful community feedback, it's people being elitist saying the UI is being dumbed down when this only helps casual players get into the game easier. This is not going to affect any remotely high level play in any whatsoever and just makes people in the lower spectrum have a bit of an easier time playing a game that can be overwhelming to them. Then same thing can be said for Auto chrono,mule or inject lol High players doesnt have much trouble with them. Casual players do. Now, we dont want an easier game do we? | ||
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Jimmeh
United Kingdom908 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:55 BigFan wrote: Why is there even an uproar about this change? It means nothing and won't change anything at all. It's not even a confirmed change; it's something people noticed from a spectator's POV! If you can see it ingame when playing I'll be very surprised. | ||
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Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo
Germany2959 Posts
I mean if it was up to a lot of folks here we wouldn't have stuff like multiple building selection etc. which is a really unnecessary, arbitrary restriction that requires you to spend more time on the interface than actually doing interesting stuff ;P | ||
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Wivyx
Norway624 Posts
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iYiYi
United States489 Posts
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JazzJackrabbit
Canada1272 Posts
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pyramidzor
United States5 Posts
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lyAsakura
United States1414 Posts
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ObliviousNA
United States535 Posts
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paintfive
785 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote: lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Sure, everyone knows how many workers saturate a base, but being aware of how many workers you have and their distribution is entirely different. Awareness of worker count is not that easy and takes lots of experience. This new change takes skill away from the game. | ||
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Insomni7
667 Posts
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:34 jidolboy wrote: Why not? They are catering low leauge players so I dont see why they wouldnt God forbid a company catering to 90% of their customer base! In all objectivity though, this is a good change. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote: lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. | ||
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Daudr
Sweden275 Posts
It hardly has any effect on the pros or competitive players, as they should already be aware of how many workers they have. | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
Seriously guys, this is a good change. God forbid in 2012 we know how many workers we have in our army. | ||
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Apolo
Portugal1259 Posts
This is good, not only for players but for spectators. A casual can't distinguish when a base as a lot of workers and when it doesn't. But if they see a low number on one guy and a high number on the other then that eases a lot of their rudimentary strategical analysis. Why does this guy have so many / so few workers ? What's he doing ? Without this, they will just look at both bases and they'll look the same. I hope that like the time function that everyone disliked, this stays. And folks prefer it. Enough with the same "don't make it easier" BS. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:57 jidolboy wrote: Then same thing can be said for Auto chrono,mule or inject lol High players doesnt have much trouble with them. Casual players do. Now, we dont want an easier game do we? Auto chrono, mule, and inject are 100% different. If you don't understand why you've never even played this game. Just stop. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
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SnipedSoul
Canada2158 Posts
I like this change because you can check your saturation without having to look at your base. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Pros are good at the game and all, but they still sometimes overtransfer workers or dump too many at one expansion. It might be a couple too many sometimes or you barely notice, but sometimes you see some guy dump like 40+ workers on a single base, and its not because its his only one. That kind of mistake can affect income enough to change games. However, it depends on how the worker count is displayed. Basically anyone above bronze isn't actually going to look at the individual base much, so they wont see the number if its displayed on each individual base structure instead of on the wireframe (I guess they would adapt to that though). | ||
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Talack
Canada2742 Posts
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Batch
Sweden692 Posts
I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win. | ||
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Dranak
United States464 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:57 jidolboy wrote: Then same thing can be said for Auto chrono,mule or inject lol High players doesnt have much trouble with them. Casual players do. Now, we dont want an easier game do we? Actually, it's quite a bit of difference. This is putting information into an easier format (and honestly will have minimal effect on high level players, and may teach low level players something about econ management) that already exists. What you're talking about automates gameplay, and would remove decisions from the player. You have options on where/how to use the energy on a queen/nexus/orbital, and choosing how to use that is a much larger part of gameplay than manually counting workers. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:02 Apolo wrote: Yeah, don't use this !! Don't use time either ! Why minimap ? let players have to constantly look around without minimap, it makes it much harder ! Might as well remove automing while we're at it. This is good, not only for players but for spectators. A casual can't distinguish when a base as a lot of workers and when it doesn't. But if they see a low number on one guy and a high number on the other then that eases a lot of their rudimentary strategical analysis. Why does this guy have so many / so few workers ? What's he doing ? Without this, they will just look at both bases and they'll look the same. I hope that like the time function that everyone disliked, this stays. And folks prefer it. Enough with the same "don't make it easier" BS. Removing auto-mine is a wonderful idea though. It doesn't change balance and it forces everyone to switch between looking at their base and army more, raising the multitask cap. | ||
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Mesha
Bosnia-Herzegovina439 Posts
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Pufftrees
2449 Posts
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:04 Batch wrote: Great change, should have been added a long time ago. I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win. This is part of macro. Selecting the workers and counting takes more time and attention than looking at a number. Incidentally, time and attention is the essence of RTS. | ||
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Guardian1972
United States40 Posts
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:04 Batch wrote: Great change, should have been added a long time ago. I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win. U are a stupid human being. ok mb not but maynarding workers, saturating bases perfectly is part of managing an economy, aka macro. why should players like Bomber, who put hours of work to make sure they het the perfect income at any given time get their efforts dismissed ? its like saying i dont want to see the player who split their marines better have more success, it should only be about talent, and talent is reflected by strategy. Stupid views like that piss me off so much... User was warned for this post | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
Making the game harder by making the UI worse or harder to understand is a stupid design philosophy and a bad way of increasing the skill ceiling. Including units like the widow mine, which punishes noobs severely but can be micro'ed against by good players, makes a lot more sense. Hopefully they keep moving in that direction -- make the UI better but the units more interesting. | ||
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iYiYi
United States489 Posts
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:05 jalstar wrote: Removing auto-mine is a wonderful idea though. It doesn't change balance and it forces everyone to switch between looking at their base and army more, raising the multitask cap. Sure and lets lose about 90% of population which plays this game, because of fucking awful interface. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:04 Batch wrote: Great change, should have been added a long time ago. I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win. Having that 3-5 drone difference you get from perfect management is not going to win you many games. It just makes your gameplay slightly better. You're arguing that we should remove core mechanical challenges of the game because you don't like doing them? This was one of the last things that actually required some attention in the macro game. | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:06 Pufftrees wrote: Pretty shitty change... having a real nice mineral saturation across your bases separates a low diamond to a master's league player. Most Diamond players I know either have bad expansion timing (way way way to late) or poor micro. The macro is typically fine which is why I find they are in diamond and people trying to MKP there marines and getting 2k minerals banked in process are not. Honestly if I understand the feature right from the battle report I have to actually be looking at my cc to see it which if im doing is usually to check saturation anyway. | ||
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Embir
Poland567 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:07 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: U are a stupid human being. ok mb not but maynarding workers, saturating bases perfectly is part of managing an economy, aka macro. why should players like Bomber, who put hours of work to make sure they het the perfect income at any given time get their efforts dismissed ? its like saying i dont want to see the player who split their marines better have more success, it should only be about talent, and talent is reflected by strategy. Stupid views like that piss me off so much... Well you are really immature, close minded and not even slightiest material to talk with. Peace. | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:03 Heavenlee wrote: Auto chrono, mule, and inject are 100% different. If you don't understand why you've never even played this game. Just stop. Man. Dont tell me to stop when you cant even support your own claim. Automatic mule/inject/chronos are not much different then looking at looking at your own base and counting workers. Both require less multitasking. | ||
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Belha
Italy2850 Posts
It should be some "skill" to have good control of how many workers you have. | ||
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Ruscour
5233 Posts
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Cecilia
United States16 Posts
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Chriamon
United States886 Posts
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Alacast
United States205 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote: Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated. | ||
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
Why are people complaining about this? | ||
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uLaLuLaLume
Canada75 Posts
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Scarlett`
Canada2385 Posts
I understand why so many people are saying its a good change - it lets people focus more with their APM on controlling army, spending time making decisions/multitasking; which they think makes the game better for spectators - but realistically this is not done at same time as multitasking engagements almost always. However, changes like this always have a negative impact (albeit a very small one) on the competitive scene. It does help players who have low APM, have a very strategical focus; but it also slightly makes the game more volatile as a lesser player will have a bigger advantage from a build order win (this is extremely important - it makes the game more luck based which is never a good thing), and it has always been a part of starcraft that a player will do better throughout the game simply by having better mechanics (this rewards practicing ..). Don't simply write of people who disagree as being elitist or it being a meaningless change. It also doesn't really make the game any better for spectators as some people have said. But I am not saying it is a big deal or will ruin anything, but small changes like this slowly have negative impact, if very small one, to competitive play. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:07 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: I didn't know counting to 24 was such a hard skill to obtain.U are a stupid human being. ok mb not but maynarding workers, saturating bases perfectly is part of managing an economy, aka macro. why should players like Bomber, who put hours of work to make sure they het the perfect income at any given time get their efforts dismissed ? its like saying i dont want to see the player who split their marines better have more success, it should only be about talent, and talent is reflected by strategy. Stupid views like that piss me off so much... | ||
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Nokshalees
United States120 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:10 Embir wrote: Well you are really immature, close minded and not even slightiest material to talk with. Peace. Nice ad hominem there. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:08 iYiYi wrote: I find it funny that most the master/grand master players in this thread don't care about the change. So who exactly are the people complaining? When pro players are asked they will just say they don't care. Excuse me dude but WTH are you talking about? There is ONE former grandmaster in this thread that has been in favor of this. Your assertion that pro players will not care based on your own logic is highly improbable. Of course there's gonna be some pros that like it because their job just got significantly easier but we as viewers should be up in arms about the game becoming less complex and thus progamers becoming less impressive. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:13 uSnAmplified wrote: I didn't know counting to 24 was such a hard skill to obtain. No single thing in this game is hard. Doing everything simultaneously as fast as possible is what's hard. Selecting and counting takes more attention than looking at a number. | ||
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SnuggleZhenya
596 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:13 uSnAmplified wrote: I didn't know counting to 24 was such a hard skill to obtain. If you trul,y can't understand how counting workers at 3-4 bases in a hectic game is an advanced skill then you are really really ignorant and know close to nothing about high level startcraft. Stop trying to be a smartass and call other people stupid when you don't understand the fundamentals of the game. | ||
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Heavenlee
United States966 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:10 jidolboy wrote: Man. Dont tell me to stop when you cant even support your own claim. Automatic mule/inject/chronos are not much different then looking at looking at your own base and counting workers. Both require less multitasking. My claim is supported by actually playing the game. Comparing knowing worker saturation at a base to zerg always having perfect injections. Cool story bro. Like I said, I accept your bet, $1,000,000 to the person who is right. I'll PM you in ten years. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging. Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level. Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects. | ||
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Inex
Bulgaria443 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:14 StarBrift wrote: Excuse me dude but WTH are you talking about? There is ONE former grandmaster in this thread that has been in favor of this. Your assertion that pro players will not care based on your own logic is highly improbable. Of course there's gonna be some pros that like it because their job just got significantly easier but we as viewers should be up in arms about the game becoming less complex and thus progamers becoming less impressive. Less army management = more kung fu fighting. SC2 is supposed to be the future of e-sports, the chosen one, not an accountancy simulator. I think the new additions is alright, nothing special. Too much drama these days, less complex lol. | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:10 Embir wrote: Well you are really immature, close minded and not even slightiest material to talk with. Peace. i dont mean that hes actually stupid just the way it was presented, but starting the sentence with i dont want to see players win through"whatever skillset i dont respect" is actually really close minded and thats what annoys me ? i dont mind hes happy with the change, but the argument | ||
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TBone-
United States2309 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote: You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated. I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease. If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play. | ||
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:19 Defacer wrote: Let's put it this way -- you could increase the skill cap of Chess by making all the pieces white and forcing players to remember who's is what, or forcing players to move their pieces with chopsticks. But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging. Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level. Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects. If you want the interface to be as simple as possible, there are lots of other things you can add. For example, an auto-produce button on any building. Obviously, we don't want the interface to either be as simply or as complex as it can be. There should be some sort of proper degree. I don't see how this simplification is desirable. | ||
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote: I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease. If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play. So we'll be seeing you at the next Code A qualifiers? | ||
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Nabes
Canada1800 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:10 Belha wrote: I don't like it. It should be some "skill" to have good control of how many workers you have. double click your workers at a base, 2 full lines for saturation for minerals and 2 lines + 4 for full mineral/gas saturation . Tell me how this equals skill again? | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:13 Gheed wrote: All this does is save you the second it takes to highlight your worker line and add 2 for the workers inside geysers. Why are people complaining about this? of course its easy to do by itself but if u have to do 15 simple things then its multitasking and u have to focus a lot. some of the best players in the world, like supernova and ogs terrans in general for whatever reason dont always make sure they saturate each expansion properly, and it makes a concrete difference in income. So it has a bigger impact on highlevel gameplay than ud think at first glance. its not huge eitherway, but ive seen really good players lose cuz of it even if its one time out of 50 or so | ||
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sour_eraser
Canada932 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:18 Heavenlee wrote: My claim is supported by actually playing the game. Comparing knowing worker saturation at a base to zerg always having perfect injections. Cool story bro. Like I said, I accept your bet, $1,000,000 to the person who is right. I'll PM you in ten years. .... What I wrote was an expression. Dont you hear people saying "I bet my life he'll score it in or something else" Now are you really going to kill that person? Second, what makes you think I dont play this game. You cant just assume and use that as evidence bro | ||
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rauk
United States2228 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:23 Nabes wrote: double click your workers at a base, 2 full lines for saturation for minerals and 2 lines + 4 for full mineral/gas saturation . Tell me how this equals skill again? remember to press A to produce marines. tell me how this equals skill again? | ||
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Gheed
United States972 Posts
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wunsun
Canada622 Posts
However, you do have to read a number. You can more often just look and guess, or highlight and look at the general number of units selected. So, it closes the gap, but not by much. | ||
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GogoKodo
Canada1785 Posts
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The Stapler
United States326 Posts
please relax guys | ||
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Omri
Israel638 Posts
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:17 StarBrift wrote: No i understand it, and being a smartass is perfectly fine response when someone wants to be an obvious asshole and come up with a jackass response like the original quote.If you trul,y can't understand how counting workers at 3-4 bases in a hectic game is an advanced skill then you are really really ignorant and know close to nothing about high level startcraft. Stop trying to be a smartass and call other people stupid when you don't understand the fundamentals of the game. Compared to MBS and auto mine this is a extremely small change, to bitch about it at this point is just doing it for the sake of bitching and being critical about something. Counting to 24 isn't hard, the two seconds it takes you to box the workers and count lines and add for gases being minded is now replaced by taking one second to look at a number, big fucking deal. Calling me stupid, ignorant or claiming that i don't know how to play doesn't actually prove that counting to 24 is hard skill by the way, it just makes you look like a jackass. | ||
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Valon
United States329 Posts
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0neder
United States3733 Posts
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polyphonyEX
United States2539 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:19 Inex wrote: Less army management = more kung fu fighting. SC2 is supposed to be the future of e-sports, the chosen one, not an accountancy simulator. I think the new additions is alright, nothing special. Too much drama these days, less complex lol. The reason why sc2 and BW are popular games is because they are very hard to master. When you make the game easier it makes progamers seem less impressive. It's the same thing with sports. People think Lebron or Kobe are the great players they are because they are so well rounded as players. In my youth I could have given kobe a run for his money in a 3 point contest. I once made 36 shots in a row from the 3pt line after practise alone with the basket. So I could shoot the basketball really well. But I wasn't that fast. I wasn't that strong. I couldn,t jump that high. I had worse stamina and ball handle than he had. So if you put me into an NBA game that would be pathethic. The reason why those top NBA players are revered is that they have so many different skills that we know are extremely hard to attain and that makes the game so much more fun to watch. Now imagine if 3pt shots weren't allowed in basketball. How much more boring would it be to watch it then? Or (anticipating your "bad analogy reply") take a smaller example. Imagine the game with the rules stating you could take 5 steps after picking up the ball. Small limiting factors of a game makes it more interesting when it becomes clear to the viewer that the player is doing something difficult. | ||
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Berailfor
441 Posts
What's wrong with that. For the majority of you voting no, are you hoping you are going to play against a player who isn't already counting his workers and transferring adequately? Because if you are. Your hoping to raise the ladder playing noobs. | ||
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StarStruck
25339 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:13 Censured wrote: I already made a post in HOTS Info updates but I think this change deserve its own thread(if not close this please) So basicly now in HOTS your main buildings(nexus, hatch, cc) display number of worker on your mineral fields+gas? What do you guys think? Poll: Do you like it? No (828) Yes (537) 1365 total votes Your vote: Do you like it? I personally don't like it very much. It makes it a LOT easier to know when to transfer workers to a new base, but on the other hand that's exactly what a skilled player should check all the time, spent some APM on it etc, It makes quite a difference if your saturation is perfect or your base is over/under saturated. Now EVERYONE would have a perfect saturation in every base. Honestly this is really no different than all the other applications they gave us and look. What do you know people aren't happy about more simplification. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
i consider "star sense" a huge part of the game, being able to eye how many workers you have and timings without even looking at the clock is skill...why they removing these? its already become so easily to defend against dt/banshee most efficiently just by looking at the clock... | ||
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confusedcrib
United States1307 Posts
Edit: Let me clarify, I don't think it's game breaking or anything, I'll just miss that little extra multitasking. | ||
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uSnAmplified
United States1029 Posts
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setzer
United States3284 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:19 Defacer wrote: Let's put it this way -- you could increase the skill cap of Chess by making all the pieces white and forcing players to remember who's is what, or forcing players to move their pieces with chopsticks. But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging. Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level. Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects. Actually it is a real-time strategy (RTS) game and you do count moving units all the time, both your own and the enemies. This is a very unnecessary addition to the game meant to make it even more casual and inviting. "improving the UI" is a terrible reason for this being implemented. Why not, then, add counters and displays to show how many of each unit you have and when future units/upgrades are finished? Lots of clicking and interpreting information is a part of the game and a reason why Starcraft is head-and-shoulders above the cheap RTS knock-offs that have come along over the last decade. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:31 uSnAmplified wrote: No i understand it, and being a smartass is perfectly fine response when someone wants to be an obvious asshole and come up with a jackass response like the original quote. Compared to MBS and auto mine this is a extremely small change, to bitch about it at this point is just doing it for the sake of bitching and being critical about something. Counting to 24 isn't hard, the two seconds it takes you to box the workers and count lines and add for gases being minded is now replaced by taking one second to look at a number, big fucking deal. Calling me stupid, ignorant or claiming that i don't know how to play doesn't actually prove that counting to 24 is hard skill by the way, it just makes you look like a jackass. In a real game with 3 bases. 2+2+2 = 6. 6 Seconds in a hectic high level game is significant. After this change zerg players will be able to cycle through their hatches during combat or at any other time in the game. Suddenly I can have perfect econ management at significantly lower levels of multitasking. If you don't understand this concept after I've explained this then the discussion is over because you have problems reading and comprehending simple logic. | ||
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Xlancer
United States126 Posts
On June 09 2012 07:53 Embir wrote: I guess people dont understand Blizzard philosophy - all the interface changes, with the exception of Automining, were done because there werent involved any decisions when you make them - they want to remove those interface limitations and leave for players those elements where decision will be made by them. Using chees analogy - they dont want you to made figures from pieces of wood, they want you to actually play and make decisions. Basically thanks to all those changes hated by elitist, SC2 isn't game where you need brainless grind to overcome interface limitations, but where you can actualy focus on gameplan and strategy. I love this direction. I agree, it frees up apm so pros can use it on executing more complex strategies. The strategies in HotS are totally going to blow BW and WoL out of the water | ||
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Adreme
United States5574 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:36 confusedcrib wrote: I really don't like this change. Counting workers was one of the small and amazing things that separated a good player from a great one. I cant see someone who doenst take time to mouse over there workers in mid game taking time to click on CC and fix it. | ||
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labbe
Sweden1456 Posts
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:17 StarBrift wrote: If you trul,y can't understand how counting workers at 3-4 bases in a hectic game is an advanced skill then you are really really ignorant and know close to nothing about high level startcraft. Stop trying to be a smartass and call other people stupid when you don't understand the fundamentals of the game. This is sarcasm/troll, right...? | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:26 Gheed wrote: You still have to click and read a number. Literally the only aspect of skill this alleviates is being able to mentally multiply by 8 and subtract however many don't fill up the last line. No. Thats like if u had an alert that tells u "build a supply depot in the 10 next second or u will be supply blocked". Its is right in front of your eyes, you dont have to force yourself to remember to do it, the game tells you to do it. Its pretty big. | ||
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EMPaThy789
New Zealand878 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
in the end nobody really gives a fuck | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:23 AndAgain wrote: If you want the interface to be as simple as possible, there are lots of other things you can add. For example, an auto-produce button on any building. Obviously, we don't want the interface to either be as simply or as complex as it can be. There should be some sort of proper degree. I don't see how this simplification is desirable. Interface -- The actual GUI -- is NOT the same as actual game design. You're equating an aesthetic or graphic design change, which makes what's happening in the game easier to understand, with automating the game. There is a big difference. To further the chess analogy, you believe showing the worker count is like allowing Deep Blue to make chess moves on Kasparov's behalf. It's more akin to Kasparov playing speed chess, and allowing a visible timer on the table. We could take the minimap, resources mined and supply counts out of the game, too. All it would do is make the game ridiculously hard and unbearable for everyone but a handful of people, and DISCOURAGE mastery. If anything, having the worker count displayed ENCOURAGES mastery, providing an basic in-game stat that players can use to perfect their play. It will make players play better, not make gameplay 'easier'. | ||
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GreyKnight
United States4720 Posts
Dont like the implications. Whats next? Give us the observer functions? | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:40 GreyKnight wrote: Well many pros still dont mine efficiently so this is amusing. Dont like the implications. Whats next? Give us the observer functions? i bet you they actually contemplated about that...scary thought. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15686 Posts
Available in game = what the fuck, why? God damn. | ||
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-Kira
352 Posts
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:37 setzer wrote: Actually it is a real-time strategy (RTS) game and you do count moving units all the time, both your own and the enemies. This is a very unnecessary addition to the game meant to make it even more casual and inviting. "improving the UI" is a terrible reason for this being implemented. Why not, then, add counters and displays to show how many of each unit you have and when future units/upgrades are finished? Lots of clicking and interpreting information is a part of the game and a reason why Starcraft is head-and-shoulders above the cheap RTS knock-offs that have come along over the last decade. yea seriously why not make a production tab of your own units in game. its the direction this change is taking that upsets me the most, and i think a good number of ppl who are unhappy with it feel the same way. competitive rts isnt about getting spoon fed... | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote: With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. roflol! OT: I don't see the problem with this change. It gives you information, that's all, doesn't help you micro or make decisions. Or are you one of those people who think less information = better? So let's remove things like supply counts and mineral shrinking animation and upgrade progress and game timer and no. of resources because clearly a good player would be able to keep track of all of these and we don't need to make the game any easier!! | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
Why do we have to count in rows of 8? Idk, but it should stay that way. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
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KrazyTrumpet
United States2520 Posts
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MrBitter
United States2940 Posts
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AndAgain
United States2621 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote: This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. Thank you! Blizzard has more sense than most of the commentators here. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote: This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. omg add to OP wtf lol | ||
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Velocirapture
United States983 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:36 uSnAmplified wrote: I think people need to be reminded of this video....+ Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mxypu9WC8c It is very rare that this type of gamer humor has an impact on me but I literally laughed out loud like three times at this video. it is so relevant to the discussion too, good job. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:43 jinorazi wrote: this feels like 40% want to enjoy bowling with rails so they put rails for everyone. logic: it doesn't hurt those who are already good but it'll help the bad players. this is terrible logic. And that's a terrible analogy... | ||
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Cracy
Poland221 Posts
After all this is a spectators' sport - at least they earn at spectators. You can't really see one counting works, but you definitely will (and what's even more important - want to) see pros doing insane micro tricks and creating new strategies... | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:42 Daniel C wrote: roflol! OT: I don't see the problem with this change. It gives you information, that's all, doesn't help you micro or make decisions. Or are you one of those people who think less information = better? So let's remove things like supply counts and mineral shrinking animation and upgrade progress and game timer and no. of resources because clearly a good player would be able to keep track of all of these and we don't need to make the game any easier!! Why are you laughing? Are you claiming that a top master player won't be able to perfectly manage his workers after this hits? If you are then I don't know what to say. You just don't understand the game at a high enough level. Either that or you don't understand what separates a pro gamer from a master player. It's mostly multitasking you know. Most top master players will have picture perfect macro when playing against a bronze player. It's doing things when you are pressured by another good player that is hard. Removing one of those tasks completely from the game instantly levels a player like me who lacks multitasking compared to pro gamers to a level closer to them. A level that I shouldn't be at because I have done nothing to deserve it. The game simply got easier. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:44 KrazyTrumpet wrote: How does this make the game easier for high level play? Good players are already on top of stuff like this, but it will help the learning curve for the nubs in the lower leagues that are trying to get used to everything. Games like SC2 have a steep learning curve to completely new players. How doesn't it make it easier? If you're eliminating having to learn this skill, you have made it easier. Edit: I really hope it's just spectator mode. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
indeed ;3 | ||
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Coolness53
United States668 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:46 AndAgain wrote: Thank you! Blizzard has more sense than most of the commentators here. I was thinking it would be cool to see it in replays but not sure about live in a game. | ||
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D_K_night
Canada615 Posts
If you don't like it, there will surely be different graphical options available for those of you who wish to turn it off. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote: This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. Thank you for this information. This is a relief to hear. It's actually a great addition for spectators. Especially to analyser your own replays. | ||
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FrogOfWar
Germany1406 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:38 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote: No. Thats like if u had an alert that tells u "build a supply depot in the 10 next second or u will be supply blocked". Its is right in front of your eyes, you dont have to force yourself to remember to do it, the game tells you to do it. Its pretty big. If you're serious about that analogy, the game tells you to not get supply blocked all the time in the top right corner of the screen. You don't even have to click. This change is meaningless. The things that matter and make a good player are knowing when to make how many workers, when to transfer, being able to spend all money, not getting supply blocked, gas timings, expaning before mining out ... so many things the number doesn't help with at all. Why is Ret the king of drones? Because he can ... count? Especially as zerg, going up to 24 just because you want a saturated base can be the decision that kills you. | ||
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CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
544 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote: This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. Destroyed this thread.... i want those 15 minutes back lol | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
Skill ceilings shouldn't be defined by limiting the interface. By this logic, your idea of a perfect game would be playing hide-and-seek with blindfolds. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:47 StarBrift wrote: Why are you laughing? Are you claiming that a top master player won't be able to perfectly manage his workers after this hits? If you are then I don't know what to say. You just don't understand the game at a high enough level. Either that or you don't understand what separates a pro gamer from a master player. It's mostly multitasking you know. Most top master players will have picture perfect macro when playing against a bronze player. It's doing things when you are pressured by another good player that is hard. Removing one of those tasks completely from the game instantly levels a player like me who lacks multitasking compared to pro gamers to a level closer to them. A level that I shouldn't be at because I have done nothing to deserve it. The game simply got easier. I encourage you to sit down, think about the ridiculousness of your statement, and come back. Or how about this: let's have you play a game where an observer helps you by telling you the no. of workers you have every time you press a CC to mimic this change. And we compare your macro to DRG/nestea. OK? | ||
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paintfive
785 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:49 Defacer wrote: God, you guys that were hating on this change would make terrible game designers. Skill ceilings shouldn't be defined by limiting the interface. By this logic, your idea of a perfect game would be playing hide-and-seek with blindfolds. yea, you should definently replace dustin browder | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote: This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. thank fuck for that  | ||
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Mcn00bin
Canada19 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:13 Censured wrote: I personally don't like it very much. It makes it a LOT easier to know when to transfer workers to a new base, but on the other hand that's exactly what a skilled player should check all the time, spent some APM on it etc, It makes quite a difference if your saturation is perfect or your base is over/under saturated. Now EVERYONE would have a perfect saturation in every base. It is a "LOT" easier you say? Because making a box, and clicking something is some kind of huge disparity right? And skilled players shouldn't have to check all the time. You either stop rallying workers there, or realize, hey, my opponent was in my base, let me check if I lost any workers. Hope this thread is just a troll, because if this is actually something this community gets upset over, it hurts. | ||
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Fanatic-Templar
Canada5819 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:36 uSnAmplified wrote: I think people need to be reminded of this video....+ Show Spoiler + http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Mxypu9WC8c This video is a revelation from the heavens. Clearly, it is the holy book of a new religion. | ||
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v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:51 paintfive wrote: yea, you should definently replace dustin browder He should. But before he does, he should probably know that Broodwar's skill cap was influenced by limited functionality with the interface. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
An appropriate analogy for the point you are making is that pro-bowlers should have to play with blindfolds on because they should be used to dimensions of the track/walking area (don't know what the term for that is?). Does that encourage skill? Yes, but not the type that we want. | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
I don't like it. Yeah, I know people are saying, "It'll help noobs but has no effect on others..." ect, ect. But BW never had it, W3 never had it, AoE never had it... This feature isn't gonna hurt e-sports or anything but I just don't like it... I think some of the other people that have been playing RTS for a while will agree with me on this, It just takes a tiny drop away from the RTS experience. You'll never have to box your drones again to check saturation, never have to click all your gases just to be safe. It won't break the game but I still don't really like it. Just what I think. | ||
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jinorazi
Korea (South)4948 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:53 Daniel C wrote: An appropriate analogy for the point you are making is that pro-bowlers should have to play with blindfolds on because they should be used to dimensions of the track/walking area (don't know what the term for that is?). Does that encourage skill? Yes, but not the type that we want. but thats adding a new element, not removing (auto unit count removes "star sense"(eye'ing) or just counting). i myself though it isn't a good analogy but it just came off my head (making things easier/fun/enjoyable but still not effect good players)...what you're suggesting is totally unrelated :/ | ||
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-TesteR-
Canada1165 Posts
On June 09 2012 06:16 VPCursed wrote: ok so i guess a semi pro has to come in and set this to rest. I was GM many seasons and I can assure you that this change has absolutely 0 fucking effect on anything.. People at my level and pros especially can easily glimpse at the mineral line... not even dragging our mineral line to see how many workers we have. I mean, you guys are really completely missing the idea of a strategy game when you get in an uproar about this shit. lmao thank you for this, I was getting worried reading posts of people who actually think this is relevant. | ||
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Alacast
United States205 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote: I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease. If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play. Baseless claims are baseless. A better player will simply adjust his rallies, transfer workers, or cut production at a better times than you while simultaneously spending his extra APM maneuvering his army more quickly and in more places. No single person has ever played a "perfect" game of Starcraft because, as I said, there is an infinite amount of things you could theoretically be doing with any and all of your units/buildings at a given moment, thus maximizing your control over said actions should be facilitated as much as possible. In this way, mediocre players who master esoteric and rather mundane tasks through rote repetition but who lack the strategic mind, physical control, or dedicated practice routine will not be able to eek out wins through sheer mechanical prowess. This should allow more games to be decided by real decisions, flawless execution, and mental toughness rather than ridiculous things like boxing and counting workers. If the only thing separating the best from the mediocre is such a low-level unconscious task that can easily be superseded by better game design, then Starcraft 2 has a long way to go before being considered a true competitive game. I believe, however, that the depth of this game extends far beyond the mechanical skills, whose maximization is a necessary and inescapable hurdle to overcome, to the beautiful and haunting creativity and sheer strength of mind/will to recognize and exploit subtle and minute chinks in your opponent's armor. Players who accomplish the bare minimum of mechanical skill and achieve victory are, to me, boring and a dime-a-dozen; players who do all that easily, quickly, efficiently, and without a second thought are the truly inspirational and joyful to watch who will win tournament after tournament against the best in the world because they are the complete package, not relying on one tiny advantage (boxing and counting workers) to defeat their opponents, but rather utilizing and delving deeper into the untold layers of perfection that can be achieved inside the game. | ||
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Defacer
Canada5052 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:53 v3chr0 wrote: He should. But before he does, he should probably know that Broodwar's skill cap was influenced by limited functionality with the interface. No, it was largely defined by being a given a plethora of options to spend your limited your resources on. All the options you had at your disposal impacted each other, were self-limiting, and could be interpreted by your opponent. The decisions you made had to be make at high speed, continuously. A lot of hand-eye coordination, tracking of information, and interpretation of what another player was doing was involved. Broodwar wasn't hard because keyboards or mouses sucked back then, or because the graphics looked flat and shitty, or because the resource counter was all pixelated. Sheesh. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote: Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. i garuntee they are making those extra workers on purpose to transfer later. many times its good for zerg to make extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer larva does not regenerate if the hatchery is larva capped and thus you must turn larva into drones or fighting units so they decided on drones i never see a pro with workers that SHOULD be transferred that arent transferred very quickly to the right location if idra has extra drones on a base but all his bases are saturated then transferring them is pointless. you transfer them when you take your fourth but theres nothing wrong with making extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer Theres not a SINGLE top30 masters player that will benefit from this change. this changes nothing because they already counted their workers before. fine maybe theres a couple top30 master zergs that got there somehow without knowing how to count his workers, maybe less than 1%. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:51 Daniel C wrote: I encourage you to sit down, think about the ridiculousness of your statement, and come back. Or how about this: let's have you play a game where an observer helps you by telling you the no. of workers you have every time you press a CC to mimic this change. And we compare your macro to DRG/nestea. OK? I have compared my macro to Nestea / DRG. I have replays of them and a lot of myself. Do you think macro is hard in this game by itself? I have had better macro than Nestea and DRG in some of my games simply because my oponents are horrendous in comparison to their oponents. Macro in this game is only hard because of the multitasking required to have it during a high level game. | ||
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:01 roymarthyup wrote: i garuntee they are making those extra workers on purpose to transfer later. many times its good for zerg to make extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer larva does not regenerate if the hatchery is larva capped and thus you must turn larva into drones or fighting units so they decided on drones i never see a pro with workers that SHOULD be transferred that arent transferred very quickly to the right location if idra has extra drones on a base but all his bases are saturated then transferring them is pointless. you transfer them when you take your fourth but theres nothing wrong with making extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer Theres not a SINGLE top30 masters player that will benefit from this change. this changes nothing because they already counted their workers before. fine maybe theres a couple top30 master zergs that got there somehow without knowing how to count his workers, maybe less than 1%. Nope you are wrong. Today Nestea was streaming ladder games. He had 20+ workers in his main mineral line and 6 on his natural vs a terran. There is no upside to this. He simply overlooked it. Granted that was a bigger mistake than he would do in an important game but he would still have something like 2-5 workers misplaced over 3 bases. It's normal and every single top pro zerg does it. Most players of the other races too. If you are under the impression that they don't then you are deluded. I suggest you download a replay pack from one of the most recent MLGs and take a look at the current best zerg in the world (imo) DRG. Those games are about as important as they get and he will still not manage his econ perfectly because it's hard to do. Bear in mind that 16 workers per mineral line is optimal and there is no reason to keep more if another base is short unless you have to travel more than one base in travel distance. Then obviously you can make more to prepare for a maynard to a new base. But going for 16 workers per base as fast as possible is the best way to maximize income. This idea that the top pros do everything perfectly because they are the best is just not true. They don't do it perfectly becuase its hard to learn and that is a testament to how good the game is. The fact that we don't have 20 top pros with picture perfect mechanics should encourage people. | ||
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Bleak
Turkey3059 Posts
On June 09 2012 08:11 Ruscour wrote: This is a good change, the only people disagreeing want things to be difficult for the sake of difficulty...this is like a tiny version of the multiple building selection issue. In any case, it makes things easier for scrubs without affecting good players at all, any change like that is good for the game overall | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:05 StarBrift wrote: Nope you are wrong. Today Nestea was streaming ladder games. He had 20+ workers in his main mineral line and 6 on his natural vs a terran. There is no upside to this. He simply overlooked it. Granted that was a bigger mistake than he would do in an important game but he would still have something like 2-5 workers misplaced over 3 bases. It's normal and every single top pro zerg does it. Most players of the other races too. If you are under the impression that they don't then you are deluded. I suggest you download a replay pack from one of the most recent MLGs and take a look at the current best zerg in the world (imo) DRG. Those games are about as important as they get and he will still not manage his econ perfectly because it's hard to do. Bear in mind that 16 workers per mineral line is optimal and there is no reason to keep more if another base is short unless you have to travel more than one base in travel distance. umm if your about to produce some drones to head to your nat its actually better to keep the 20 on your main line as 20 is max saturation the 10 seconds it takes to run to your natural thats 10 minerals lost per drone transferred and if your gonna make more drones very soon to send to your natural sometimes its better to send new drones to your natural instead of transfering below 20 if nestea had 25 on his main and didnt transfer 5 over id consider it a mistake. however sometimes i see that scenario in pro games but thats because hes micro'ing something else then when he gets back to base he quickly fixes the saturation issue | ||
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RifleCow
Canada637 Posts
Read this everyone before raging all over the place. | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:08 RifleCow wrote: Read this everyone before raging all over the place. LOL everyone looks like an idiot now. | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:00 Alacast wrote: Baseless claims are baseless. A better player will simply adjust his rallies, transfer workers, or cut production at a better times than you while simultaneously spending his extra APM maneuvering his army more quickly and in more places. No single person has ever played a "perfect" game of Starcraft because, as I said, there is an infinite amount of things you could theoretically be doing with any and all of your units/buildings at a given moment, thus maximizing your control over said actions should be facilitated as much as possible. In this way, mediocre players who master esoteric and rather mundane tasks through rote repetition but who lack the strategic mind, physical control, or dedicated practice routine will not be able to eek out wins through sheer mechanical prowess. This should allow more games to be decided by real decisions, flawless execution, and mental toughness rather than ridiculous things like boxing and counting workers. If the only thing separating the best from the mediocre is such a low-level unconscious task that can easily be superseded by better game design, then Starcraft 2 has a long way to go before being considered a true competitive game. I believe, however, that the depth of this game extends far beyond the mechanical skills, whose maximization is a necessary and inescapable hurdle to overcome, to the beautiful and haunting creativity and sheer strength of mind/will to recognize and exploit subtle and minute chinks in your opponent's armor. Players who accomplish the bare minimum of mechanical skill and achieve victory are, to me, boring and a dime-a-dozen; players who do all that easily, quickly, efficiently, and without a second thought are the truly inspirational and joyful to watch who will win tournament after tournament against the best in the world because they are the complete package, not relying on one tiny advantage (boxing and counting workers) to defeat their opponents, but rather utilizing and delving deeper into the untold layers of perfection that can be achieved inside the game. Spot on, and eloquently put. | ||
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RaiKageRyu
Canada4773 Posts
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StarBrift
Sweden1761 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:08 roymarthyup wrote: umm if your about to produce some drones to head to your nat its actually better to keep the 20 on your main line as 20 is max saturation the 10 seconds it takes to run to your natural thats 10 minerals lost per drone transferred and if your gonna make more drones very soon to send to your natural sometimes its better to send new drones to your natural instead of transfering below 20 if nestea had 25 on his main and didnt transfer 5 over id consider it a mistake. however sometimes i see that scenario in pro games but thats because hes micro'ing something else then when he gets back to base he quickly fixes the saturation issue False. Stop lying about stuff that has been proven in other threads. 16 workers per base is the first goal since after the first 16 you get diminishing return. Hence you get more money from having you workers spread out as 16-16 than you would if you had 20-12. Those 4 extra workers in your main are getting you less minerals than they would in your natural. And transfering them down to the natural loses you less minerals than they gain by gathering from your natural. Hence it is allways more economically efficient to have 16 workers in all your bases before you go over 16 in any of them (unless you have to run a really really long way in between bases or are anticipating making zerg buildings soon). | ||
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
Seriously, it amazes me how many people have that mentality. | ||
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CarlosOmse
Germany507 Posts
allthough it seems to be just for spectators | ||
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Daniel C
Hong Kong1606 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:01 StarBrift wrote: I have compared my macro to Nestea / DRG. I have replays of them and a lot of myself. Do you think macro is hard in this game by itself? I have had better macro than Nestea and DRG in some of my games simply because my oponents are horrendous in comparison to their oponents. Macro in this game is only hard because of the multitasking required to have it during a high level game. Then what is your point? You claimed the change will make you macro like nestea then you say you can already macro like him? Wtf is this How about this: pick a game where your macro fails because you are getting harassed or whatnot. Are you claiming that this small change will elevate your macro to nestea's standard? thought not. | ||
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roymarthyup
1442 Posts
On June 09 2012 09:17 StarBrift wrote: False. Stop lying about stuff that has been proven in other threads. 16 workers per base is the first goal since after the first 16 you get diminishing return. Hence you get more money from having you workers spread out as 16-16 than you would if you had 20-12. Those 4 extra workers in your main are getting you less minerals than they would in your natural. And transfering them down to the natural loses you less minerals than they gain by gathering from your natural. Hence it is allways more economically efficient to have 16 workers in all your bases before you go over 16 in any of them (unless you have to run a really really long way in between bases or are anticipating making zerg buildings soon). actually most zergs try to get 19-20 drones per mineral line. 16 would cut your income by 15% per base. your enemy wont let you have 4 bases quickly if hes skilled so you maxout your 3base mineral income with 19-20 drones per mineral line | ||
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TheSwamp
United States1497 Posts
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
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MCDayC
United Kingdom14464 Posts
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Falling
Canada11349 Posts
Closed. | ||
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