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HOTS main buildings now displaying # of workers - Page 14

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TBone-
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States2309 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 23:21:58
June 08 2012 23:21 GMT
#261
Good players already know about their harvester counts already, but bad players don't. So I see no problems here with this.
Eve online FC, lover of all competition
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
June 08 2012 23:22 GMT
#262
On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs


lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action

and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters


Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this.

And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it.

If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative.

This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts.


You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated.



I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease.

If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play.
AndAgain
Profile Joined November 2010
United States2621 Posts
June 08 2012 23:23 GMT
#263
On June 09 2012 08:19 Defacer wrote:
Let's put it this way -- you could increase the skill cap of Chess by making all the pieces white and forcing players to remember who's is what, or forcing players to move their pieces with chopsticks.

But that's not how chess is intended to be challenging.

Anything that improves the user interface of a game for both players and fans should be welcomed. It improves the experience for entry level players and spectators but will have almost no impact on the game at the professional level.

Edit: SC2 is a strategy game, not a game about counting moving objects.



If you want the interface to be as simple as possible, there are lots of other things you can add. For example, an auto-produce button on any building. Obviously, we don't want the interface to either be as simply or as complex as it can be. There should be some sort of proper degree. I don't see how this simplification is desirable.
All your teeth should fall out and hair should grow in their place!
Gheed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States972 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 23:24:19
June 08 2012 23:23 GMT
#264
On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote:
On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs


lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action

and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters


Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this.

And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it.

If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative.

This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts.


You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated.



I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease.

If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play.


So we'll be seeing you at the next Code A qualifiers?
Nabes
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada1800 Posts
June 08 2012 23:23 GMT
#265
On June 09 2012 08:10 Belha wrote:
I don't like it.
It should be some "skill" to have good control of how many workers you have.


double click your workers at a base, 2 full lines for saturation for minerals and 2 lines + 4 for full mineral/gas saturation . Tell me how this equals skill again?
CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr
Profile Joined June 2012
544 Posts
June 08 2012 23:24 GMT
#266
On June 09 2012 08:13 Gheed wrote:
All this does is save you the second it takes to highlight your worker line and add 2 for the workers inside geysers.

Why are people complaining about this?


of course its easy to do by itself but if u have to do 15 simple things then its multitasking and u have to focus a lot. some of the best players in the world, like supernova and ogs terrans in general for whatever reason dont always make sure they saturate each expansion properly, and it makes a concrete difference in income. So it has a bigger impact on highlevel gameplay than ud think at first glance. its not huge eitherway, but ive seen really good players lose cuz of it even if its one time out of 50 or so
awaiting the return of the space cowboy
sour_eraser
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada932 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 23:25:47
June 08 2012 23:25 GMT
#267
On June 09 2012 08:18 Heavenlee wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 08:10 jidolboy wrote:
On June 09 2012 08:03 Heavenlee wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:57 jidolboy wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:53 Heavenlee wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:51 StarBrift wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:45 Fenrax wrote:
On June 09 2012 07:32 FinestHour wrote:
Makes no difference at high level of play, and helps out lower level players.

Why so much complaining?


because COMPLAINING....


people effing always complain, no matter what. good change for once blizz. now give us lan


Yeah its complaining. So what? Customers complain when a company makes a product worse than it used to be. Usually companies then try to meet the customers needs. It's not ungrateful to complain about a product you paid money for.
Serious companies want people to complain when there's something wrong with their product so that they can make it better. Blizzard is a company that takes pride in listening to the community and will be prepared for complaints. Its a natural part of buisness. Stop being outraged about something natural and completely acceptable.


Because it's illogical complaining. People aren't even thinking of any actual negative ramifications, they're just posting in outrage about nothing. That's not helpful community feedback, it's people being elitist saying the UI is being dumbed down when this only helps casual players get into the game easier. This is not going to affect any remotely high level play in any whatsoever and just makes people in the lower spectrum have a bit of an easier time playing a game that can be overwhelming to them.

Then same thing can be said for Auto chrono,mule or inject lol
High players doesnt have much trouble with them. Casual players do.
Now, we dont want an easier game do we?


Auto chrono, mule, and inject are 100% different. If you don't understand why you've never even played this game. Just stop.

Man. Dont tell me to stop when you cant even support your own claim. Automatic mule/inject/chronos are not much different then looking at looking at your own base and counting workers. Both require less multitasking.


My claim is supported by actually playing the game. Comparing knowing worker saturation at a base to zerg always having perfect injections. Cool story bro. Like I said, I accept your bet, $1,000,000 to the person who is right. I'll PM you in ten years.

....
What I wrote was an expression. Dont you hear people saying "I bet my life he'll score it in or something else" Now are you really going to kill that person?
Second, what makes you think I dont play this game. You cant just assume and use that as evidence bro
"What's the f*cking point of censoring a letter if everyone and their mother knows what it stands for.... F*cking morons"
rauk
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States2228 Posts
June 08 2012 23:26 GMT
#268
On June 09 2012 08:23 Nabes wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 08:10 Belha wrote:
I don't like it.
It should be some "skill" to have good control of how many workers you have.


double click your workers at a base, 2 full lines for saturation for minerals and 2 lines + 4 for full mineral/gas saturation . Tell me how this equals skill again?


remember to press A to produce marines. tell me how this equals skill again?

Gheed
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States972 Posts
June 08 2012 23:26 GMT
#269
You still have to click and read a number. Literally the only aspect of skill this alleviates is being able to mentally multiply by 8 and subtract however many don't fill up the last line.
wunsun
Profile Joined October 2010
Canada622 Posts
June 08 2012 23:27 GMT
#270
This kinda dulls time the game too much.

However, you do have to read a number. You can more often just look and guess, or highlight and look at the general number of units selected. So, it closes the gap, but not by much.
GogoKodo
Profile Blog Joined April 2003
Canada1785 Posts
June 08 2012 23:28 GMT
#271
Don' mind it at all. I don't see this having any effect whatsoever on pro-games. It helps out lower leagues as a convenience thing but not enough that they will suddenly bridge the gap so that you can't tell a pro from an amateur.
twitter: @terrancem
The Stapler
Profile Joined August 2010
United States326 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-08 23:29:16
June 08 2012 23:29 GMT
#272
YES! finally...thanks blizzard now i will pwn teh GSLs for sure.this was just the feature i needed to take my play to the next level


please relax guys

Omri
Profile Joined September 2011
Israel638 Posts
June 08 2012 23:29 GMT
#273
Would be really cool if it was just for the observers or when watching a replay..
uSnAmplified
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1029 Posts
June 08 2012 23:31 GMT
#274
On June 09 2012 08:17 StarBrift wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 08:13 uSnAmplified wrote:
On June 09 2012 08:07 CtrlShiftAltGrrrrrrr wrote:
On June 09 2012 08:04 Batch wrote:
Great change, should have been added a long time ago.

I don't want to see games won by the player who has the best counting skills. I want to see the player with the best strategies, best macro, and best micro to win.


U are a stupid human being. ok mb not but maynarding workers, saturating bases perfectly is part of managing an economy, aka macro. why should players like Bomber, who put hours of work to make sure they het the perfect income at any given time get their efforts dismissed ? its like saying i dont want to see the player who split their marines better have more success, it should only be about talent, and talent is reflected by strategy. Stupid views like that piss me off so much...
I didn't know counting to 24 was such a hard skill to obtain.



If you trul,y can't understand how counting workers at 3-4 bases in a hectic game is an advanced skill then you are really really ignorant and know close to nothing about high level startcraft. Stop trying to be a smartass and call other people stupid when you don't understand the fundamentals of the game.
No i understand it, and being a smartass is perfectly fine response when someone wants to be an obvious asshole and come up with a jackass response like the original quote.

Compared to MBS and auto mine this is a extremely small change, to bitch about it at this point is just doing it for the sake of bitching and being critical about something. Counting to 24 isn't hard, the two seconds it takes you to box the workers and count lines and add for gases being minded is now replaced by taking one second to look at a number, big fucking deal.

Calling me stupid, ignorant or claiming that i don't know how to play doesn't actually prove that counting to 24 is hard skill by the way, it just makes you look like a jackass.

~
Valon
Profile Joined June 2011
United States329 Posts
June 08 2012 23:31 GMT
#275
I don't think it is that bog of a deal if u don't want to know don;t use the feature and do it the "more skill" way. Its not like it's  changing gameplay its just a knew feature thats there if u want it.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
June 08 2012 23:32 GMT
#276
Face it blizzard, economy-based RTS video games will never be SUPER mainstream, so don't even try. Just make an awesome, niche esport game that has broader appeal than BW.
polyphonyEX
Profile Joined May 2012
United States2539 Posts
June 08 2012 23:32 GMT
#277
I don't like it, but it changes absolutely nothing at the top level.
StarBrift
Profile Joined January 2008
Sweden1761 Posts
June 08 2012 23:33 GMT
#278
On June 09 2012 08:19 Inex wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 09 2012 08:14 StarBrift wrote:
On June 09 2012 08:08 iYiYi wrote:
I find it funny that most the master/grand master players in this thread don't care about the change. So who exactly are the people complaining? When pro players are asked they will just say they don't care.


Excuse me dude but WTH are you talking about? There is ONE former grandmaster in this thread that has been in favor of this. Your assertion that pro players will not care based on your own logic is highly improbable. Of course there's gonna be some pros that like it because their job just got significantly easier but we as viewers should be up in arms about the game becoming less complex and thus progamers becoming less impressive.


Less army management = more kung fu fighting. SC2 is supposed to be the future of e-sports, the chosen one, not an accountancy simulator. I think the new additions is alright, nothing special. Too much drama these days, less complex lol.


The reason why sc2 and BW are popular games is because they are very hard to master. When you make the game easier it makes progamers seem less impressive. It's the same thing with sports. People think Lebron or Kobe are the great players they are because they are so well rounded as players.

In my youth I could have given kobe a run for his money in a 3 point contest. I once made 36 shots in a row from the 3pt line after practise alone with the basket. So I could shoot the basketball really well. But I wasn't that fast. I wasn't that strong. I couldn,t jump that high. I had worse stamina and ball handle than he had. So if you put me into an NBA game that would be pathethic. The reason why those top NBA players are revered is that they have so many different skills that we know are extremely hard to attain and that makes the game so much more fun to watch.

Now imagine if 3pt shots weren't allowed in basketball. How much more boring would it be to watch it then? Or (anticipating your "bad analogy reply") take a smaller example. Imagine the game with the rules stating you could take 5 steps after picking up the ball. Small limiting factors of a game makes it more interesting when it becomes clear to the viewer that the player is doing something difficult.
Berailfor
Profile Joined January 2012
441 Posts
June 08 2012 23:34 GMT
#279
My thoughts: Its perfectly fine. The skilled player is the one who checks his worker count and transfers adequately. It is the same now, except now you can figure out the number of workers easier.

What's wrong with that. For the majority of you voting no, are you hoping you are going to play against a player who isn't already counting his workers and transferring adequately? Because if you are. Your hoping to raise the ladder playing noobs.
StarStruck
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
25339 Posts
June 08 2012 23:34 GMT
#280
On June 09 2012 06:13 Censured wrote:
I already made a post in HOTS Info updates but I think this change deserve its own thread(if not close this please)

So basicly now in HOTS your main buildings(nexus, hatch, cc) display number of worker on your mineral fields+gas? What do you guys think?
Poll: Do you like it?

No (828)
 
61%

Yes (537)
 
39%

1365 total votes

Your vote: Do you like it?

(Vote): Yes
(Vote): No


I personally don't like it very much. It makes it a LOT easier to know when to transfer workers to a new base, but on the other hand that's exactly what a skilled player should check all the time, spent some APM on it etc, It makes quite a difference if your saturation is perfect or your base is over/under saturated. Now EVERYONE would have a perfect saturation in every base.


Honestly this is really no different than all the other applications they gave us and look. What do you know people aren't happy about more simplification.
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