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On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote:
This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least.
thank fuck for that 
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On June 09 2012 06:13 Censured wrote:
I personally don't like it very much. It makes it a LOT easier to know when to transfer workers to a new base, but on the other hand that's exactly what a skilled player should check all the time, spent some APM on it etc, It makes quite a difference if your saturation is perfect or your base is over/under saturated. Now EVERYONE would have a perfect saturation in every base.
It is a "LOT" easier you say? Because making a box, and clicking something is some kind of huge disparity right?
And skilled players shouldn't have to check all the time. You either stop rallying workers there, or realize, hey, my opponent was in my base, let me check if I lost any workers.
Hope this thread is just a troll, because if this is actually something this community gets upset over, it hurts.
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On June 09 2012 08:36 uSnAmplified wrote:I think people need to be reminded of this video.... + Show Spoiler +
This video is a revelation from the heavens. Clearly, it is the holy book of a new religion.
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On June 09 2012 08:51 paintfive wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:49 Defacer wrote:
God, you guys that were hating on this change would make terrible game designers.
Skill ceilings shouldn't be defined by limiting the interface. By this logic, your idea of a perfect game would be playing hide-and-seek with blindfolds. yea, you should definently replace dustin browder
He should.
But before he does, he should probably know that Broodwar's skill cap was influenced by limited functionality with the interface.
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On June 09 2012 08:48 jinorazi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:47 Daniel C wrote:On June 09 2012 08:43 jinorazi wrote:
this feels like 40% want to enjoy bowling with rails so they put rails for everyone. logic: it doesn't hurt those who are already good but it'll help the bad players. this is terrible logic. And that's a terrible analogy... indeed ;3
An appropriate analogy for the point you are making is that pro-bowlers should have to play with blindfolds on because they should be used to dimensions of the track/walking area (don't know what the term for that is?). Does that encourage skill? Yes, but not the type that we want.
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To be honest?
I don't like it.
Yeah, I know people are saying, "It'll help noobs but has no effect on others..."
ect, ect.
But BW never had it, W3 never had it, AoE never had it...
This feature isn't gonna hurt e-sports or anything but I just don't like it...
I think some of the other people that have been playing RTS for a while will agree with me on this, It just takes a tiny drop away from the RTS experience. You'll never have to box your drones again to check saturation, never have to click all your gases just to be safe. It won't break the game but I still don't really like it.
Just what I think.
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On June 09 2012 08:53 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:48 jinorazi wrote:On June 09 2012 08:47 Daniel C wrote:On June 09 2012 08:43 jinorazi wrote:
this feels like 40% want to enjoy bowling with rails so they put rails for everyone. logic: it doesn't hurt those who are already good but it'll help the bad players. this is terrible logic. And that's a terrible analogy... indeed ;3 An appropriate analogy for the point you are making is that pro-bowlers should have to play with blindfolds on because they should be used to dimensions of the track/walking area (don't know what the term for that is?). Does that encourage skill? Yes, but not the type that we want.
but thats adding a new element, not removing (auto unit count removes "star sense"(eye'ing) or just counting).
i myself though it isn't a good analogy but it just came off my head (making things easier/fun/enjoyable but still not effect good players)...what you're suggesting is totally unrelated :/
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On June 09 2012 06:16 VPCursed wrote:
ok so i guess a semi pro has to come in and set this to rest. I was GM many seasons and I can assure you that this change has absolutely 0 fucking effect on anything.. People at my level and pros especially can easily glimpse at the mineral line... not even dragging our mineral line to see how many workers we have.
I mean, you guys are really completely missing the idea of a strategy game when you get in an uproar about this shit.
lmao thank you for this, I was getting worried reading posts of people who actually think this is relevant.
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On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote:On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated. I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease. If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play.
Baseless claims are baseless. A better player will simply adjust his rallies, transfer workers, or cut production at a better times than you while simultaneously spending his extra APM maneuvering his army more quickly and in more places. No single person has ever played a "perfect" game of Starcraft because, as I said, there is an infinite amount of things you could theoretically be doing with any and all of your units/buildings at a given moment, thus maximizing your control over said actions should be facilitated as much as possible. In this way, mediocre players who master esoteric and rather mundane tasks through rote repetition but who lack the strategic mind, physical control, or dedicated practice routine will not be able to eek out wins through sheer mechanical prowess.
This should allow more games to be decided by real decisions, flawless execution, and mental toughness rather than ridiculous things like boxing and counting workers. If the only thing separating the best from the mediocre is such a low-level unconscious task that can easily be superseded by better game design, then Starcraft 2 has a long way to go before being considered a true competitive game. I believe, however, that the depth of this game extends far beyond the mechanical skills, whose maximization is a necessary and inescapable hurdle to overcome, to the beautiful and haunting creativity and sheer strength of mind/will to recognize and exploit subtle and minute chinks in your opponent's armor. Players who accomplish the bare minimum of mechanical skill and achieve victory are, to me, boring and a dime-a-dozen; players who do all that easily, quickly, efficiently, and without a second thought are the truly inspirational and joyful to watch who will win tournament after tournament against the best in the world because they are the complete package, not relying on one tiny advantage (boxing and counting workers) to defeat their opponents, but rather utilizing and delving deeper into the untold layers of perfection that can be achieved inside the game.
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On June 09 2012 08:53 v3chr0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:51 paintfive wrote:On June 09 2012 08:49 Defacer wrote:
God, you guys that were hating on this change would make terrible game designers.
Skill ceilings shouldn't be defined by limiting the interface. By this logic, your idea of a perfect game would be playing hide-and-seek with blindfolds. yea, you should definently replace dustin browder He should. But before he does, he should probably know that Broodwar's skill cap was influenced by limited functionality with the interface.
No, it was largely defined by being a given a plethora of options to spend your limited your resources on. All the options you had at your disposal impacted each other, were self-limiting, and could be interpreted by your opponent. The decisions you made had to be make at high speed, continuously. A lot of hand-eye coordination, tracking of information, and interpretation of what another player was doing was involved.
Broodwar wasn't hard because keyboards or mouses sucked back then, or because the graphics looked flat and shitty, or because the resource counter was all pixelated.
Sheesh.
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On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts.
i garuntee they are making those extra workers on purpose to transfer later.
many times its good for zerg to make extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer
larva does not regenerate if the hatchery is larva capped and thus you must turn larva into drones or fighting units so they decided on drones
i never see a pro with workers that SHOULD be transferred that arent transferred very quickly to the right location
if idra has extra drones on a base but all his bases are saturated then transferring them is pointless. you transfer them when you take your fourth but theres nothing wrong with making extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer
Theres not a SINGLE top30 masters player that will benefit from this change. this changes nothing because they already counted their workers before. fine maybe theres a couple top30 master zergs that got there somehow without knowing how to count his workers, maybe less than 1%.
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On June 09 2012 08:51 Daniel C wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:47 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 08:42 Daniel C wrote:On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote:On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. roflol! OT: I don't see the problem with this change. It gives you information, that's all, doesn't help you micro or make decisions. Or are you one of those people who think less information = better? So let's remove things like supply counts and mineral shrinking animation and upgrade progress and game timer and no. of resources because clearly a good player would be able to keep track of all of these and we don't need to make the game any easier!! Why are you laughing? Are you claiming that a top master player won't be able to perfectly manage his workers after this hits? If you are then I don't know what to say. You just don't understand the game at a high enough level. Either that or you don't understand what separates a pro gamer from a master player. It's mostly multitasking you know. Most top master players will have picture perfect macro when playing against a bronze player. It's doing things when you are pressured by another good player that is hard. Removing one of those tasks completely from the game instantly levels a player like me who lacks multitasking compared to pro gamers to a level closer to them. A level that I shouldn't be at because I have done nothing to deserve it. The game simply got easier. I encourage you to sit down, think about the ridiculousness of your statement, and come back. Or how about this: let's have you play a game where an observer helps you by telling you the no. of workers you have every time you press a CC to mimic this change. And we compare your macro to DRG/nestea. OK?
I have compared my macro to Nestea / DRG. I have replays of them and a lot of myself. Do you think macro is hard in this game by itself? I have had better macro than Nestea and DRG in some of my games simply because my oponents are horrendous in comparison to their oponents. Macro in this game is only hard because of the multitasking required to have it during a high level game.
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On June 09 2012 09:01 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. i garuntee they are making those extra workers on purpose to transfer later. many times its good for zerg to make extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer larva does not regenerate if the hatchery is larva capped and thus you must turn larva into drones or fighting units so they decided on drones i never see a pro with workers that SHOULD be transferred that arent transferred very quickly to the right location if idra has extra drones on a base but all his bases are saturated then transferring them is pointless. you transfer them when you take your fourth but theres nothing wrong with making extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer Theres not a SINGLE top30 masters player that will benefit from this change. this changes nothing because they already counted their workers before. fine maybe theres a couple top30 master zergs that got there somehow without knowing how to count his workers, maybe less than 1%.
Nope you are wrong. Today Nestea was streaming ladder games. He had 20+ workers in his main mineral line and 6 on his natural vs a terran. There is no upside to this. He simply overlooked it. Granted that was a bigger mistake than he would do in an important game but he would still have something like 2-5 workers misplaced over 3 bases. It's normal and every single top pro zerg does it. Most players of the other races too. If you are under the impression that they don't then you are deluded. I suggest you download a replay pack from one of the most recent MLGs and take a look at the current best zerg in the world (imo) DRG. Those games are about as important as they get and he will still not manage his econ perfectly because it's hard to do. Bear in mind that 16 workers per mineral line is optimal and there is no reason to keep more if another base is short unless you have to travel more than one base in travel distance. Then obviously you can make more to prepare for a maynard to a new base. But going for 16 workers per base as fast as possible is the best way to maximize income.
This idea that the top pros do everything perfectly because they are the best is just not true. They don't do it perfectly becuase its hard to learn and that is a testament to how good the game is. The fact that we don't have 20 top pros with picture perfect mechanics should encourage people.
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On June 09 2012 08:11 Ruscour wrote:
This is a good change, the only people disagreeing want things to be difficult for the sake of difficulty...this is like a tiny version of the multiple building selection issue. In any case, it makes things easier for scrubs without affecting good players at all, any change like that is good for the game overall
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On June 09 2012 09:05 StarBrift wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:01 roymarthyup wrote:On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. i garuntee they are making those extra workers on purpose to transfer later. many times its good for zerg to make extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer larva does not regenerate if the hatchery is larva capped and thus you must turn larva into drones or fighting units so they decided on drones i never see a pro with workers that SHOULD be transferred that arent transferred very quickly to the right location if idra has extra drones on a base but all his bases are saturated then transferring them is pointless. you transfer them when you take your fourth but theres nothing wrong with making extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer Theres not a SINGLE top30 masters player that will benefit from this change. this changes nothing because they already counted their workers before. fine maybe theres a couple top30 master zergs that got there somehow without knowing how to count his workers, maybe less than 1%. Nope you are wrong. Today Nestea was streaming ladder games. He had 20+ workers in his main mineral line and 6 on his natural vs a terran. There is no upside to this. He simply overlooked it. Granted that was a bigger mistake than he would do in an important game but he would still have something like 2-5 workers misplaced over 3 bases. It's normal and every single top pro zerg does it. Most players of the other races too. If you are under the impression that they don't then you are deluded. I suggest you download a replay pack from one of the most recent MLGs and take a look at the current best zerg in the world (imo) DRG. Those games are about as important as they get and he will still not manage his econ perfectly because it's hard to do. Bear in mind that 16 workers per mineral line is optimal and there is no reason to keep more if another base is short unless you have to travel more than one base in travel distance.
umm if your about to produce some drones to head to your nat its actually better to keep the 20 on your main line as 20 is max saturation
the 10 seconds it takes to run to your natural thats 10 minerals lost per drone transferred and if your gonna make more drones very soon to send to your natural sometimes its better to send new drones to your natural instead of transfering below 20
if nestea had 25 on his main and didnt transfer 5 over id consider it a mistake. however sometimes i see that scenario in pro games but thats because hes micro'ing something else then when he gets back to base he quickly fixes the saturation issue
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On June 09 2012 08:51 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote:
This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. thank fuck for that
Read this everyone before raging all over the place.
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On June 09 2012 09:08 RifleCow wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:51 Psychobabas wrote:On June 09 2012 08:46 MrBitter wrote:
This only happens in spectator mode, dudes. It's not ez-mode saturation button in the live client yet. Not from my play experience, at least. thank fuck for that Read this everyone before raging all over the place.
LOL everyone looks like an idiot now.
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On June 09 2012 09:00 Alacast wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:22 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 08:13 Alacast wrote:On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. You DO realize that having the number on the screen is not the same as automatically moving workers around right? It still takes time, thought, practice, planning, and execution to manage your workers; they simply removed a single step of the process: boxing your workers. Now all you have to do is look at the number! You'll probably see lots of mid/low-tier pros with over/under saturation often because there's simply too many other important things to do in the game that demand your APM and concentration. Don't deny the infinity that is the potential options at any given moment in the game-you can always be doing something more, even if 99% of the game is automated. I am a top master player on europe. In world rank maybe top 10.000 in the world. With this change my econ management would be equal to DRG or Nestea. Do you see the problem here? 10k players being able to mimic certain aspects of a progamers performance with ease. If you're arguing that boxing workers in this build is hard to do in a high level game then I'm with you. But they are about to remove that and thus remove one of the core aspects of strong macro play. Baseless claims are baseless. A better player will simply adjust his rallies, transfer workers, or cut production at a better times than you while simultaneously spending his extra APM maneuvering his army more quickly and in more places. No single person has ever played a "perfect" game of Starcraft because, as I said, there is an infinite amount of things you could theoretically be doing with any and all of your units/buildings at a given moment, thus maximizing your control over said actions should be facilitated as much as possible. In this way, mediocre players who master esoteric and rather mundane tasks through rote repetition but who lack the strategic mind, physical control, or dedicated practice routine will not be able to eek out wins through sheer mechanical prowess. This should allow more games to be decided by real decisions, flawless execution, and mental toughness rather than ridiculous things like boxing and counting workers. If the only thing separating the best from the mediocre is such a low-level unconscious task that can easily be superseded by better game design, then Starcraft 2 has a long way to go before being considered a true competitive game. I believe, however, that the depth of this game extends far beyond the mechanical skills, whose maximization is a necessary and inescapable hurdle to overcome, to the beautiful and haunting creativity and sheer strength of mind/will to recognize and exploit subtle and minute chinks in your opponent's armor. Players who accomplish the bare minimum of mechanical skill and achieve victory are, to me, boring and a dime-a-dozen; players who do all that easily, quickly, efficiently, and without a second thought are the truly inspirational and joyful to watch who will win tournament after tournament against the best in the world because they are the complete package, not relying on one tiny advantage (boxing and counting workers) to defeat their opponents, but rather utilizing and delving deeper into the untold layers of perfection that can be achieved inside the game.
Spot on, and eloquently put.
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I wouldn't mind this if it was available out of spectator mode. They already made this for gas geysers. No riot back then eh? It's only appropriate they do one for minerals.
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On June 09 2012 09:08 roymarthyup wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 09:05 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 09:01 roymarthyup wrote:On June 09 2012 08:01 StarBrift wrote:On June 09 2012 07:51 roymarthyup wrote:
lol at someone in this thread saying counting workers is the only thing that seperated really high master zergs from low master zergs
lmao. im pretty sure every every top30 master zerg knows exactly how many workers they have at all times and i garuntee all of their builds are mapped to a T in determining when they will have X amount of workers in order to pull off Y timing or Y action
and below top30 master is pretty much just an extension of diamond in my opinion so you cant compare diamond to top30 masters Nah, I said its the only thing that separates a top pro from a masters player ECONOMY WISE. If you're gonna be a douchebag and try to earn cool points atleast try to actually read the post. Also there's a quote feature on this forum. That "some guy" person is really easy to find and quote in a short thread like this. And NO, top 30 master zergs do not have perfect econ management in this build. I watch maybe 10 hours of top zerg streams every week. Players like Idra, Ret, DRG, Nestea, Losira, Stephano, Revival etc. All of them have 2-5 too many workers on their main mineral lines from time to time in the early to midgame. Small things that give you maybe 100 more minerals in the long run so they wont break a game for you but its still something every pro can to improve on. Every single top pro mind you. Forget top 30 GM being able to do it. If this change is not for obs only but also for players then all these pros will have perfect ammounts of workers at their bases at all times. Blizzard has then sucessfully removed something that separates the very top of progamers from the rest of the top echelon of players. That is purely negative. This change will make macro easier especially for zerg players as econ management is very heavily based on how many workers you can squeeze out to mine from the maximum ammount of bases without dying. Zergs that bind their hatcheries individually (like Nestea, DRG, Losira, Revival etc) will be able to jump in between their hatches during battles or slightly before/after and VERY easily allways have the optimal counts. i garuntee they are making those extra workers on purpose to transfer later. many times its good for zerg to make extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer larva does not regenerate if the hatchery is larva capped and thus you must turn larva into drones or fighting units so they decided on drones i never see a pro with workers that SHOULD be transferred that arent transferred very quickly to the right location if idra has extra drones on a base but all his bases are saturated then transferring them is pointless. you transfer them when you take your fourth but theres nothing wrong with making extra drones in anticipation for a future transfer Theres not a SINGLE top30 masters player that will benefit from this change. this changes nothing because they already counted their workers before. fine maybe theres a couple top30 master zergs that got there somehow without knowing how to count his workers, maybe less than 1%. Nope you are wrong. Today Nestea was streaming ladder games. He had 20+ workers in his main mineral line and 6 on his natural vs a terran. There is no upside to this. He simply overlooked it. Granted that was a bigger mistake than he would do in an important game but he would still have something like 2-5 workers misplaced over 3 bases. It's normal and every single top pro zerg does it. Most players of the other races too. If you are under the impression that they don't then you are deluded. I suggest you download a replay pack from one of the most recent MLGs and take a look at the current best zerg in the world (imo) DRG. Those games are about as important as they get and he will still not manage his econ perfectly because it's hard to do. Bear in mind that 16 workers per mineral line is optimal and there is no reason to keep more if another base is short unless you have to travel more than one base in travel distance. umm if your about to produce some drones to head to your nat its actually better to keep the 20 on your main line as 20 is max saturation the 10 seconds it takes to run to your natural thats 10 minerals lost per drone transferred and if your gonna make more drones very soon to send to your natural sometimes its better to send new drones to your natural instead of transfering below 20 if nestea had 25 on his main and didnt transfer 5 over id consider it a mistake. however sometimes i see that scenario in pro games but thats because hes micro'ing something else then when he gets back to base he quickly fixes the saturation issue
False. Stop lying about stuff that has been proven in other threads. 16 workers per base is the first goal since after the first 16 you get diminishing return. Hence you get more money from having you workers spread out as 16-16 than you would if you had 20-12. Those 4 extra workers in your main are getting you less minerals than they would in your natural. And transfering them down to the natural loses you less minerals than they gain by gathering from your natural. Hence it is allways more economically efficient to have 16 workers in all your bases before you go over 16 in any of them (unless you have to run a really really long way in between bases or are anticipating making zerg buildings soon).
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EPT
