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I don't think its fair to hate on MLG; it is the standard right now for tournaments to do whatever they want with maps. Map teams pretty much have to send map files to the companies so they can be published as "MLG ___" (or whatever the tournament is).
The problem is that tournaments feel they can make whatever changes they want to a map without asking the mapmaker. Yes I understand completely that sometimes changes need to be made because of an imbalance. However that doesn't negate the fact that mapmakers put many many hours of work into helping the community, with no pay.
Artists don't walk in to an art gallery to find that somebody changed their painting because they think its better with a touch of green in the center. Musicians don't give radio hosts their CDs and then find that the radio host is playing the songs with a new bass line. The artists/musicians are usually asked first (for the sake of argument, I know there are exceptions to these examples). Any changes a tournament wants to make on a map should go through the mapmaker or at very least a representative of the map team that will allow the changes.
This problem originates from the fact that mapmakers don't talk to Blizzard, tournament organizers, or players. There's almost no contact. Until there is more communication between mapmakers and tournament organizers, the issue won't be fixed.
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I agree completely with the OP. I'm always saddened when a tournament says they are using ESV whatever when they have made a number of changes to the map. I like that they are helping to get the ESV name out there, but I'm really disheartened with the maps are changed; especially when the change seems completely unwarranted and non-balance related.
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1) The Blizzard copyrights and EULA is so much legal BS and this is the ultimate cause.
2) Blizzard has led the pack with disrespect to mapmakers.
3) This has made the tournaments feel they can be equally disrespectful.
Ultimately Blizzard needs to abandon its abusive, controlling, money-leeching EULA and fight for the community that built it.
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NO ONE is arguing that mapmakers OWN THE MAPS they make. NO ONE. If they are, they're wrong. Why the hell are you people talking about Blizzard and EULA?
Did TL suddenly get saturated with pre-laws or something? This isn't a question of legality, this isn't a question of ownership, there are no technicalities here. We fucking got it the first few pages - Blizzard owns everything, and MLG *CAN* do whatever they want with the maps.
The general issue raised here is NOT that MLG can't, it's that they're assholes for doing it. Fucking simple, to be honest.
- When an artist work gets featured on DeviantArt's front page, they get PM'd first. Do they have to contact the artist? No. But they do, because otherwise it's a dick move.
- When Instagram wants to put a picture that a user uploaded anywhere else, the user gets contacted about it. Do they have to contact the user? No. But they do, because otherwise it's a dick move.
Edit: I'm not adding fuel. MLG isn't wrong. They should just take notice of this thread. They've listened to the community before, and they're good people. It's a much different issue if they read this and say "yeah, too bad lol."
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On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote:
Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map.
I'm assuming you've made a lot of balanced map for SC2 and know everything there is to know about map making to make such a bold statement about a professionally made map. MLG has, AFAIK, no map makers that are or were recognized by the community or anyone actually.
They just butchered LS's dozen of hours work without any understanding or knowledge about map making and you say it's ok cause well, it's MLG.
I don't get it
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creating maps isnt that hard.+ Show Spoiler + (i mean look everyone spends lots of time on them, but you get my point.)
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On May 12 2012 08:04 loginn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote:
Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. I'm assuming you've made a lot of balanced map for SC2 and know everything there is to know about map making to make such a bold statement about a professionally made map. MLG has, AFAIK, no map makers that are or were recognized by the community or anyone actually. They just butchered LS's dozen of hours work without any understanding or knowledge about map making and you say it's ok cause well, it's MLG. I don't get it
Please, enlighten me on a game where the islands have contributed to the entertainment value more than someone endlessly turtling against air units.
It's not an island, but an island with freaking destructible rocks preventing optimal mining without investing into units and tech that even allow you to use it.
butchering of the map is merely an opinion. Think of it merely as optimizing it from excess clutter.
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On May 12 2012 08:14 WniO wrote:creating maps isnt that hard. + Show Spoiler + (i mean look everyone spends lots of time on them, but you get my point.) and besides if your map gets on the tournament cycle you should just be proud its there. also, if the map would be better with a few changes then why should the mapper care, it makes his/her map better.
Lol what? We spend like upwards of 100 hours on most maps, per map. It's fucking difficult. If it's so easy remind me how many of your maps have hit major circuits? Sure you can make a "map" easily and quickly, but to make a competitive map is hard ass work that requires a lot of time and a massive team effort.
On May 12 2012 08:16 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:04 loginn wrote:On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote:
Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. I'm assuming you've made a lot of balanced map for SC2 and know everything there is to know about map making to make such a bold statement about a professionally made map. MLG has, AFAIK, no map makers that are or were recognized by the community or anyone actually. They just butchered LS's dozen of hours work without any understanding or knowledge about map making and you say it's ok cause well, it's MLG. I don't get it Please, enlighten me on a game where the islands have contributed to the entertainment value more than someone endlessly turtling against air units. It's not an island, but an island with freaking destructible rocks preventing optimal mining without investing into units and tech that even allow you to use it. butchering of the map is merely an opinion. Think of it merely as optimizing it from excess clutter.
Uh I can give you a ton of games on Sanshorn Mist. Most of the time P or Z took the islands on that map, and rarely turtled on them.
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Level design is a creative process that produces original artwork. To get a grasp on just how draconian Blizzard's EULA is, look at this excerpt:
YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL MAPS, LEVELS AND OTHER CONTENT CREATED OR MODIFIED USING THE MAP EDITOR (COLLECTIVELY, “MODIFIED MAPS”) ARE AND SHALL REMAIN THE SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF BLIZZARD.
This basically means that anything you create in the editor is theirs, which includes completely original characters and stories. It's akin to handing you a pen and notebook and telling you that whatever you write in it is their intellectual property. This is, in my humble opinion, a gross misuse of what intellectual property was intended to protect and probably wouldn't stand up in court, even if you agreed to it.
If a third party editor was developed, like SCMDraft, then the maps you create would still be your property, even if you shared them. Blizzard would be hardpressed to make any claim on them.
But really it's not there to fuck us over, it's just to cover Blizzard's ass from people trying to sell maps or campaigns made using their editor.
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That said, there are a few things about taking someone's map and editing it without their permission. It's pretty much the single most asshole thing you can do in level design. If MLG is going to be a bitch and violate this ethical principle then just boycott them. They're not giving you any sort of compensation.
Tell them straight that if they want to make revisions to the maps they should consult you, the level designer, and discuss why they want to change it. It's really not that difficult to send an email going, "Hey you know those islands in Metropolis? I think we should remove them for X reason. What do you think?"
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Well I never thought this was an issue, but I guess it is thank you for bringing it up! If there is anything we the community can do can you tell us?
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On May 12 2012 08:42 dylan522p wrote:
Well I never thought this was an issue, but I guess it is thank you for bringing it up! If there is anything we the community can do can you tell us?
Request to the tournaments they start respecting mapmakers work.
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as long as we dont have a legit rotation system and legit selections and mapmakers (basically a well organized united way to select what maps to be official or not) i think its fine to edit the maps to the tournaments likings
but ideally we would have what i said and then nobody was allowed make their own versions of their maps or even have the desire to do so
On May 12 2012 07:26 Eisregen wrote:
Hm...when I made maps for Unreal Tournament back in the days and I felt like modding another mapper's work, I surely tried to contact the guy first and asked him bout it. Most of the times the reply was "mention my original work in the credits and gogogo".
That was how we handled the stuff back then. Modding another guy's work without asking was out of question.
that sounds like the least they can do before they start doing changes.
would suck to be a mapmaker and have some stupid changes made and get the blame for it or ruined reputation because some tournament orga screwed his map over
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Close this please, dialog has been opened up, and I will be working on this issue behind the scenes now.
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Reminds me of Broodwar. People used to suffer the same problem until someone offered a solution where the produced map was uncapable of being edited and only the creator could make further edits to it. Perhaps SC2 needs this feature, except more formally.
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Pretty sure I'd get expelled from university if I did something a long these lines with an assignment. Pretty ridiculous that MLG doesn't even bother to contact mapmakers before changing their work. Another reason to dislike MLG.
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Completely with the OP on this one, the map is a creation of the mapmaker(s), with a great deal of work put into it. In commercial circumstances IP law allows for Moral Rights of the author/artist and the protection of their work from alteration, distortion, or mutilation even after it leaves the possession of the artist or ownership is sold. And this is to works that are sold and the artist has been paid for their work. Here the map makers are doing it for the community and their own pleasure but are not even consulted when their work is changed, it just feels wrong.
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United States8476 Posts
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EPT
