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On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho
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On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly.
no its not. there are plenty of reasons to switch from random to a race, and none ot them would invalidate my argument.
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On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you?
I don't know who randomkorean is or if he is any good at all or if he even said what you are claiming he said, so you've got some pretty weak "evidence".
I don't know of any specific comments from progamers regarding playing random, but what I do know is that a large portion of tournaments do not allow you to play as Random because it is considered imbalanced.
I'm in Masters league btw, and yes I have played all 3 races and yes I have played around with Random before and know how to seriously abuse it for easy wins.
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On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho
like you said, he didn't do well. imagine he would've done well...
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On February 24 2012 04:59 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho like you said, he didn't do well. imagine he would've done well...
your arguments have more circles than the olympic logo.
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On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
We had random players at a pro level (GuMiho, GuineaPig) but they started race-picking in order to stay competitive. What does that demonstrate?
EDIT: Wow seriously? He didn't do well, but imagine how well he would have done if he had done well? What sort of black hole of logic is that?
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I hate playing random because they all ways all in. 9 times out of 10 they all in which is why I always blindly prepare for it from a random and get an easy win most of the time 
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On February 24 2012 04:59 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you? I don't know who randomkorean is or if he is any good at all or if he even said what you are claiming he said, so you've got some pretty weak "evidence". I don't know of any specific comments from progamers regarding playing random, but what I do know is that a large portion of tournaments do not allow you to play as Random because it is considered imbalanced. I'm in Masters league btw, and yes I have played all 3 races and yes I have played around with Random before and know how to seriously abuse it for easy wins.
i just told you he is GM on NA server (as far as I know; I believe he is kOre), and you can read back a few pages to see what he said.
name one sc2 tournament that bans random because they consider it imbalanced? because the GSL allows random and I can't think of a more prestigious tournament.
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It doesn't matter what race, what league, or even what strategy you use. You're going to be raged at for playing OP Zerg, OP Terran, OP Protoss, Cheesey Random Shit, Stupid 1 Base All-in, Idiotic 2 Base All-in, Retarded 3 Base All-in, Fuckin Coin Flip Matchup, Wow WTF No-Skill Dice-roll Strategy......not to mention WTF Lag, OMG MY Mouse cord got stuck, I'm soooo high/drunk looool, and other excuses.
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On February 24 2012 04:58 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. no its not. there are plenty of reasons to switch from random to a race, and none ot them would invalidate my argument.
I have to admit I like this argument. It's a reasonable argument. The pro sample size is small in SC2. Game hasn't been out long enough, and so on, and so forth. But consider this: In BW one can also play random. But in BW, where the pro sample size is massive (game has been established 5-6X longer), we also see no random pro players. Why, if random has a clear, overall, advantage?
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State of the game should talk about this random discussion on there next show 
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On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
Yes, except nobody can train enough to overcome the fact that you can't play all races at a level equal to somebody who only plays one. Saying we just don't have good R players is completely pointless. We had 2 random players in GSL iirc and both have either not made it to a second individual league appearance (Superstar) or switched races to Terran (GuMiHo). Oh, and GuineaPig picked as well Maybe there were others in the open seasons but seriously, that was just a horrible time.
Now, does that mean that random players are genetically predetermined to be inferior and therefore pick random to make up for it but still can't? I doubt it. People should stop blaming random for their losses, they worked hard to get there playing all races and if you're just getting allined evey game that's just a ladder issue. You can always adapt in series play and that's where the real competition is anyways.
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Random is in the game.
There are advantages and disadvantages.
I am having trouble versus protoss. I don't say GTFO of SCII TOSS!!!! YOU IMBA!!! WTF!!!!
I say - hmm - what can I do to improve my vP.
It's easier to place blame to cope with shortcomings. We all do it. It is important to recognize when you are tho, take a step back and reevalutate. Surely MMA did not get where he is by not playing Randoms. Or ragequitting in response to random. He beat them somehow.
As a random player - I act find myself at an advantage in the very late game just due to my where my skill lies with macro mechanics. I have more trouble with mid/meta game. I would say my best skills are Micro and Super Late-Game Macro. My worst are defending timings and forcing myself to not go apeshit and take 4 expos at once. Everyone has different strengths/weaknessess.
A Random player is not just going to win every time (Even on Tal'Darim people, blasphemy, I know). Just like PZandT are not going to win every time. A Random player may occasionally - or more than occasionally cheese - just like a PZ or T player. Everyone suffers BO losses. Everyone gets all-ined. There is no avoiding it.
Maybe you need to improve your vR.
Find a good Random opponent and play him a bunch. Will be good for both of you.
Edit: Spelling
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On February 24 2012 05:00 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:59 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:56 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 gumiho was a random player in the GSL. he didn't start doing really well until he chose terran as his main. so, your argument is kinda silly. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GuMiho like you said, he didn't do well. imagine he would've done well... your arguments have more circles than the olympic logo.
all i'm saying saying is it is not possible to play random at pro level, because you have to spent 3 times the time on practice. if a pro practice 10 hours a day, how are going to practice 30 hours a day? its not possible, thats why we don't see random pro players. however, that doesn't refute the fact that random gives you an imbalance advantage
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Even TL hates randoms... no random pics, only race specific for the profile 
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Random players are so frustrating to play against because they get a HUGE advantage before the game even starts. Its quite frankly bullshit that random should be allowed. Makes no sense. Ever faced a random on Tal Darim as P. you instantly lose the game because if its zerg and you dont FFE you lost, and if you don't 4gate and its P then you lost. And its impossible to know.
Personally i proxy 2gate random on 2 player maps and 4 gate on any other map.
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For a lot of people it's not that they hate seeing randoms cheese, it's that they are "practicing" (even if they are below masters), and XvR practice is of very questionable value. This is especially true with protoss, where you end up "practicing" your PvT where you have half a wall-in, or maybe your PvP after a 15 nexus.
You'd think the rarity of playing versus random would roughly translate to the rarity of needing to practice essentially three new general playstyles (say PvR[T], PvR[Z] and PvR[P]), but it just feels like a waste of time.
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On February 24 2012 05:00 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:53 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 We had random players at a pro level (GuMiho, GuineaPig) but they started race-picking in order to stay competitive. What does that demonstrate? EDIT: Wow seriously? He didn't do well, but imagine how well he would have done if he had done well? What sort of black hole of logic is that?
You're using the term "racepicker" wrongly. It refers to someone who chooses his race depending on his opponent's choice of race, not to someone who always plays the same race regardless. So Morrow who plays ZvT, ZvP, and TvZ is a racepicker.
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EPT
