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On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.
well, since you are complaining about it so much, play random and see how easy it is. i guarantee its not as overpowered as you think it is. my masters/gm friend played on my account random for the lulz and he lost almost every game that he played when he didn't random zerg (his specific race). you think its so easy to do, you do it.
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Germany511 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.
Yes, they have a slight advantage per se. No, that's not "imbalanced" because to reach that level they had to learn all three races and that does existentially influence the game you're playing. They invested the time before. You didn't. Their MMR is the same as yours while they trained quite a bit more. Maybe you only getting 45% win vs random at your level is kinda fair then? Imagine if the'y trained one race for that long, they'd probably crush you Oo
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If I play against a random I scout at 9, wall in early, defend whatever cheese comes, and win. Of course the smart random players do economic "cheese" by FE'ing then roflstomp me for playing too conservatively.
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This season I have only played random so far (only team games tho cuz my toss is abysmal lol). But when I play a random player 1v1 and they win I usually give them props because it is much more difficult to be good at all three races than just one.
One of the reasons I respect TLO so much was for playing random at such a high level. It requires a higher understanding of the game as a whole.
But when I play random I hardly ever cheese because then I don't learn anything about playing that race... Macro games are so much more fun
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On February 24 2012 04:25 leperphilliac wrote:
If I play against a random I scout at 9, wall in early, defend whatever cheese comes, and win. Of course the smart random players do economic "cheese" by FE'ing then roflstomp me for playing too conservatively.
lol. random players cant win. if they rush, they are cheesers; if they expand, they are cheesers. love the logic.
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I don't hate them. Lot of them cheese though. It's not easy to play with but they are often worse than a single racing player nonetheless.
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Its usually a cheese game or very boring in my experience. Few times have I been impressed by a random player
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On February 24 2012 04:23 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. well, since you are complaining about it so much, play random and see how easy it is. i guarantee its not as overpowered as you think it is. my masters/gm friend played on my account random for the lulz and he lost almost every game that he played when he didn't random zerg (his specific race). you think its so easy to do, you do it.
no i don't complain^^ and i never said its easy. i just explained why its not possible to balance random. obviously your friend will lose his non zerg games, because his non zerg match ups are not masters level. but a random player can only be master, if ALL his matchups are master level. so if a random master players against a non random master, they have same skill level, but the random player has an advantage
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On February 24 2012 04:06 Timerly wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:49 SupItsG wrote:
PvR on a map like tal darim is absolutely ridiculous the random player has a gigantic advantage. If your opponent is zerg and you don't FFE you are far behind. If he's toss and you do FFE you lose. You can't 1 base because you can't properly wall since there is no ramp. You really only have 2 viable builds in this situation and those are cannon cheese and 4 gate You know, your general choice involves playing random yourself. Suddenly they don't have an advantage, eh? Of course, you'll have to learn the other two races. So yeah, it's just a trade off. One guy learns 9 matchups, one guy has to live with a less than optimal BO. If you don't like disadvantages vs random, play random. If you feel that wouldn't benefit you, don't. Just don't cry about it (btw, Tal Darim = generally ridiculous map in any PvX matchup).
you can just go 6 times allin in the mus you dont like and that seems to be the tactic of choice for nearly every random player out there...
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On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.
i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope.
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On February 24 2012 04:18 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:02 ZenithM wrote:
THIS is why we don't like playing against Random.
Not because you're all cheesy.
Not because you're all better players than us.
Not because you're all assholes.
Because the game just doesn't make any sense against Random, no matter how good you are, or how good your Random fellow is... How does the game do not make sense? What the fuck? Assuming that random players get a fairly minuscule advantage from playing random, you get the benefit of only knowing 3 matchups rather 9 matchups. How hard is it to understand that? I understand there might be every-so-slight advantage from your opponent not knowing your matchup, but so fucking what? You go gate first vs hatch first build - then PUNISH HIM. Why do you HAVE to go FFE? or FE? You can adapt to it. That's why it's called REAL-TIME Strategy -> you change your strategy REAL time based on the information you know, IE you know their race vs not knowing their race. Bitching about random is same as bitching about how one race is OP. It's only more socially acceptable because the % of random players are much less than race-picking players. So quit your bitching. I swear there are new breeds of stupids coming in to TLeveryday.
Yeah well, I can also "adapt" to double CCing first every single game, doesn't mean I will win. Not every strategy is the right strategy. And punishing a hatch first, that's something new. You know that hatching first is very standard for Zerg right, and very beneficial and safe for them? If I don't plant down 2 cannons in his face, he can always defend anything with a hatch first, even better than he would with pool first. But that's beside the point.
Stop throwing the ever so generic "stop bitching" when your precious Random gets called out a bit. The OP asked a question, I just answered why people might dislike playing against random. That's my reason, it doesn't make it true or anything, but I can tell you that many people share this kind of "bitching" with me. "Stupid" or not, that's the way it is. The same way Terran finds it hard to play a macro game vs Protoss these days, you're right about that.
And do you think you're the first one to say that playing random is hard and that you have to play 9 matchups? Do you think I didn't read that somewhere already?
We got that for god's sake, we're proud of you, even.
Build gate at nat choke. Prepare for 3 stalk rush. If you scout zerg, build zealots. Done.
Thank you for that. Noted.
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On February 24 2012 04:30 rycho wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope.
Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again.
Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that.
Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife.
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On February 24 2012 04:29 tztztz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:23 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. well, since you are complaining about it so much, play random and see how easy it is. i guarantee its not as overpowered as you think it is. my masters/gm friend played on my account random for the lulz and he lost almost every game that he played when he didn't random zerg (his specific race). you think its so easy to do, you do it. no i don't complain^^ and i never said its easy. i just explained why its not possible to balance random. obviously your friend will lose his non zerg games, because his non zerg match ups are not masters level. but a random player can only be master, if ALL his matchups are master level. so if a random master players against a non random master, they have same skill level, but the random player has an advantage
i think your issue is with the ladder system, not the fact that people play random. the fact that a random player knows his race at the beginning of the game is such an insignificant advantage as to not matter to people who are actually good. thats why you dont see people playing random in notable tournaments.
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On February 24 2012 00:26 Doctorasul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 00:21 NexCa wrote:
The problem with random players is that :
I am a Protoss player, and if i am facing a random player, i am forced to open 1 base (i usually ALWAYS play forge fast expand PvZ on any map, no matter what)
So i've basically not really a build PvZ on 1 base
The other thing is, that you have to scout asap, and on a 4 player map, if you find your opponent last and he's Protoss, you have a Problem with your chronoboost spending until that time, thats my point of view You are not entitled to have a predetermined build order be invulnerable against anything the other player does. If you go into the game determined to go forge fast expand vs Random, then it's your fault if that leads you to lose. Would you accept a terran complaining he can't expand twice with no barracks because the other guys always attacks before he can defend? No, because his predetermined build order was stupid to being with, as it was not adapted to the reality of the game he was playing. You have no build for PvZ if your random oponent happens to spawn as Z. Who's fault is that if not your own? Get off your ass and start working on a good build for that situation.
What about this argument:
The alleged advantage conferred by choosing random only pertains to ladder play. Therefore, pros are excluded from this alleged phenomenon whereby random entails "non-standard play", and thus forces opponents to do things they are (on average) less comfortable doing, such as adapting to "cheesy random play". One could argue this stress in fact does hamper an opponent on ladder, but that this isn't a factor in pro/tournament play, where there is far less ladder-esque cheese/nonsense/mindgames.
I don't think I even buy any of that, but it's just something to consider in favor of supporting that there is at least some advantage conferred by playing random on ladder. On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. That might actually be why no pros play random. The level at which they play means it's that much harder to practice and maintain that high of a level of play with 2 additional races. This disadvantage probably far outweighs the SLIGHT and *possible* advantage conferred by playing random on ladder, at the pro level.
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On February 24 2012 04:21 Oradri wrote:
For me its always annoying playing a random player because i like to know when to wall off or not. Sometimes when i don't wall off, and he gets zerg and does a 9 pool, its hard to hold off without a wall. If i do wall off and hes terran he just scans my buildings from ramp and kills them.
Here let me help
+ Show Spoiler +
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I don't like random players because almost all of them cheese, especially in team games. You don't know what they'll spawn as and they use that to their advantage and cheese you out.
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On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.
I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point?
And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.
And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game.
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On February 24 2012 04:36 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:30 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining. random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random. its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race. no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play. i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope. Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again. Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that. Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife.
I have one complain against random players as protoss: taldarin altar.
WTF do you do, really?
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The reasons to play random? It varies heavily. Everybody has their own reasons. It's exciting, challenging, etc.
The reasons to hate random? It is an indisputable fact that you will be ranked higher if you play with 1 race rather than playing random. You will simply improve more steadily if you use only 1 race. So this random player is declaring, by playing random, that their subjective reason for playing random outweighs the clear benefit of playing a single race.
It's "unreasonable" to play random if you care about rank or skill more than having fun or whatever other reason the random player has (tactical advantage?  )
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On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:
On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period. I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.
nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/c/c3/ActionJesus_-_Don%27t_wall_off_vs_random.jpg)
