EPTWhy do people hate Random players ? - Page 24
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alpinefpOPP
United States134 Posts
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RogerX
New Zealand3180 Posts
Like SCV marine all-in or just one base play... Its annoying and fuels up my hatred | ||
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tztztz
Germany314 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote: nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. oO i would say it does matter.^^ | ||
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BeeNu
615 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote: nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter. Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. | ||
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Ryndika
1489 Posts
BM not acceptable still.  | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote: I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point? And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works. And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game. You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Now, one could imagine that even if there is an advantage, perhaps this early-game advantage doesn't matter due to the fact that playing random is already vastly disadvantageous. Why is it already vastly disadvantageous? The answer is obvious: three times the amount of races to know equally well. Your analogy to steroid use is horrible, sorry. It's not at all the same. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response to it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. | ||
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dAPhREAk
Nauru12397 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote: Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level. i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you? | ||
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MercilessMonkey
Canada150 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:44 RogerX wrote: Most random players I play with always do all ins or cheeses. Like SCV marine all-in or just one base play... Its annoying and fuels up my hatred Sums up my feelings. I just blindly prepare for cheese every game and scout early, and more often than not the random is doing some silly cheese that isn't even very well executed. It seems like a lot of randoms only make it to where they are at because of this, just catching people off guard by getting scouted lasted or something of the sort so that their poor cheese attempts work. Obviously not all randoms do this, but based on my own ladder experience I'd say more than half of the ones I face do. | ||
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BadgKat
United States156 Posts
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Galamoz
United States16 Posts
So if I'm not on top of my scouting, I'll just fall over and die. | ||
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Spieltor
327 Posts
if the random is zerg, you might get cheesed by a 6 pool. you have to choose the ultimate safe build for every race, which means if the random went extra greedy, you have no way to punish them and are therefore behind. The only thing you can do at this point is have superior counter building and unit control to dig out of the hole. Another way of thinking it, is comparing the RANDOM to the zerg problem with scouting COMPETENT protoss or terran players. You have no idea how much you can drone or tech, or if you should be laying down defenses and hammering that roach button like no tomorrow. The only difference is that learning the timings of P and T backwards and forwards can help about 25% to mitigate this issue. There is nothing a person can learn or figure out in order to mitigate the possible Greed or Cheese play from a random. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote: i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you? Well, he just advised me to "PUNISH" a hatch first with a gateway first build on Taldarim, so I would say that his game knowledge is a bit lacking for a GM player. | ||
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DemonDeacon
United States158 Posts
i never say anything but whenever i see a random opponent i cringe a little inside because you are basically forced into doing a super safe build (half of randoms cheese the hell out of you) until you figure out which race they are. meanwhile, they could be doing a greedy build that i can't react to until i find out where they are and what they are doing. also, you can't take advantage of certain maps: if it's a big map and it's pvt i might go nexus first but if they are random and it turns out they are protoss, well i just lost to a 4 gate. meanwhile if they are t and i did a safe build because i don't know what race they are, well then they could have gone 3 fast command centers for free and are ready to defend by the time i find them. almost half the people i play on ladder cheese, but at least if i know what race they are i can tailor my build toward the cheeses 1 race can do, rather than vs 3. | ||
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CarlosOmse
Germany507 Posts
On February 23 2012 22:49 LlamaNamedOsama wrote: As a former random player, trust me - people will bm/rage no matter what league you are. Funny enough, when I played random, I also got bm/hate for every possible race that popped up even though I was random. haha yes same here been flamed so many time for my particular race beeing a noob race back when i played random | ||
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Aegeis
United States1619 Posts
On February 23 2012 22:49 iLLiTHiD wrote: My guess is because most random players, especially in lower leagues, don't play any one race particularly better than the other. So a lot of them settle for one-base all-ins and cheese. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but in my experience, random players are much more likely to do one-base plays instead of actually playing a macro game. And when they do all-in/cheese it's usually not that good since they haven't practiced it optimally. I prefer random players because I know they aren't that solid in my experience. | ||
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Ceio
Scotland27 Posts
ZvT Hatch first is so much better, 14/14 can put you at a significant advantage as your creep spread is diminished because you get additional queens a lot later ( 3 and/or 4) and the zergling speed isnt required as quickly. Also the timings are slightly foreign in the matchup. ZvP Hatch first can be death vs a well executed cannon rush on some maps, it also welcomes a pylon wall in and other unusual situations which really, I do not want to play in games. ZvZ I prefer to play 14/14 as I believe this is the least "coin-flippy" of the opening builds as, correctly played, you can still come out ahead vs a hatch first, your pretty safe to an early pool, and if he goes 14/14, well... your safe. If I play hatch first and it turns out my opponent is zerg and I have been 6-9 pooled ( more often the case vs a random player generally ) then that also puts me behind For me, when I played random, I would tell my opponent what race I was because at the time I just enjoyed playing all 3 races equally as much. TL;DR I hate guessing opening builds as a zerg player that I haven't played out as often in that m/u | ||
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ZasZ.
United States2911 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:36 BeeNu wrote: Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again. Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that. Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife. Your analogy is dumb. No one agreed to it being a knife fight, so you can't be pissed when someone brings a gun. It's actually like the race-picker was offered a gun and refused. If Random makes it so much easier, pick it and stop bitching. If people would actually think about the builds they're using and the scouting information they're gathering, rather than regurgitating the latest build order they found on TL, they might figure out a stable way of playing when they don't know their opponent's race for the first ~40 seconds of the game. But no, disruption of their little practice bubble is unthinkable. | ||
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DemonDeacon
United States158 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:49 Spieltor wrote: its very simple. if the random is zerg, you might get cheesed by a 6 pool. you have to choose the ultimate safe build for every race, which means if the random went extra greedy, you have no way to punish them and are therefore behind. The only thing you can do at this point is have superior counter building and unit control to dig out of the hole. Another way of thinking it, is comparing the RANDOM to the zerg problem with scouting COMPETENT protoss or terran players. You have no idea how much you can drone or tech, or if you should be laying down defenses and hammering that roach button like no tomorrow. The only difference is that learning the timings of P and T backwards and forwards can help about 25% to mitigate this issue. There is nothing a person can learn or figure out in order to mitigate the possible Greed or Cheese play from a random. well said | ||
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tztztz
Germany314 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote: You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7 | ||
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THM
Bulgaria1131 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote: You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument: If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random? -The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level. Now, one could imagine that even if there is an advantage, perhaps this early-game advantage doesn't matter due to the fact that playing random is already vastly disadvantageous. Why is it already vastly disadvantageous? The answer is obvious: three times the amount of races to know equally well. Your analogy to steroid use is horrible, sorry. It's not at all the same. Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response to it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage. Correct. No one on the pro level plays random as it requires you to practice 3 times more than everyone else just to be on their level. And you get what? Your opponent feeling slightly uncomfortable with his build until he scouts you? It's just not worth it. | ||
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