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Why do people hate Random players ? - Page 24

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alpinefpOPP
Profile Blog Joined June 2011
United States134 Posts
February 23 2012 19:43 GMT
#461
its almost always the same story with a random player... not all but most, its some cheesy all in.
RogerX
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
New Zealand3180 Posts
February 23 2012 19:44 GMT
#462
Most random players I play with always do all ins or cheeses.

Like SCV marine all-in or just one base play... Its annoying and fuels up my hatred
Stick it up. take it up. step aside and see the world
tztztz
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany314 Posts
February 23 2012 19:44 GMT
#463
On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance.

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.


oO i would say it does matter.^^
BeeNu
Profile Joined June 2011
615 Posts
February 23 2012 19:44 GMT
#464
On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance.

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.


Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level.
Ryndika
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
1489 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-23 19:46:52
February 23 2012 19:46 GMT
#465
Because playing protoss against random zerg is like, I'd probably prefer to get aids and get hit by a bus.

BM not acceptable still.
as useful as teasalt
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-23 19:50:41
February 23 2012 19:47 GMT
#466
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point?

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game.


You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument:

If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random?
-The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level.

Now, one could imagine that even if there is an advantage, perhaps this early-game advantage doesn't matter due to the fact that playing random is already vastly disadvantageous. Why is it already vastly disadvantageous? The answer is obvious: three times the amount of races to know equally well. Your analogy to steroid use is horrible, sorry. It's not at all the same.

Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response to it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage.

dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
February 23 2012 19:48 GMT
#467
On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance.

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.


Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level.

i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you?
MercilessMonkey
Profile Joined August 2010
Canada150 Posts
February 23 2012 19:48 GMT
#468
On February 24 2012 04:44 RogerX wrote:
Most random players I play with always do all ins or cheeses.

Like SCV marine all-in or just one base play... Its annoying and fuels up my hatred


Sums up my feelings. I just blindly prepare for cheese every game and scout early, and more often than not the random is doing some silly cheese that isn't even very well executed. It seems like a lot of randoms only make it to where they are at because of this, just catching people off guard by getting scouted lasted or something of the sort so that their poor cheese attempts work. Obviously not all randoms do this, but based on my own ladder experience I'd say more than half of the ones I face do.
BadgKat
Profile Joined June 2011
United States156 Posts
February 23 2012 19:48 GMT
#469
As a lot of people have said a lot of R cheese/one base/all in/do some risky play that takes advantage of the fact that thier opponents don't have as much info about them as the R has against his opponent. Also no one reply knows how to open vs R. Its difficult to pick an opening that will aloe you to play well against all ttheee races.
Galamoz
Profile Joined June 2011
United States16 Posts
February 23 2012 19:49 GMT
#470
As zerg, I feel like people who play random will most likely cheese or do some sort of all in. Knowing this, I always play defensively and safe against random, but if they decide to just play standard macro game, I'm just miles behind because I feel the need to play safe.

So if I'm not on top of my scouting, I'll just fall over and die.
Spieltor
Profile Blog Joined February 2012
327 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-23 19:56:26
February 23 2012 19:49 GMT
#471
its very simple.

if the random is zerg, you might get cheesed by a 6 pool. you have to choose the ultimate safe build for every race, which means if the random went extra greedy, you have no way to punish them and are therefore behind. The only thing you can do at this point is have superior counter building and unit control to dig out of the hole.

Another way of thinking it, is comparing the RANDOM to the zerg problem with scouting COMPETENT protoss or terran players. You have no idea how much you can drone or tech, or if you should be laying down defenses and hammering that roach button like no tomorrow. The only difference is that learning the timings of P and T backwards and forwards can help about 25% to mitigate this issue. There is nothing a person can learn or figure out in order to mitigate the possible Greed or Cheese play from a random.

"A government big enough to give you everything you want, is strong enough to take everything you have." -Thomas Jefferson
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
February 23 2012 19:50 GMT
#472
On February 24 2012 04:48 dAPhREAk wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:44 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:42 dAPhREAk wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance.

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

nobody argues that it is not an advantage. everyone who is good argues that its so insignificant that it doesnt matter.


Rofl, ok, show me one clear example of a "good" player who says playing Random isn't imbalanced on a significant level.

i believe randomkorean in this thread is grandmaster on NA and he says its not. not sure though. now, you tell me one person who is good and thinks it is imbalanced on a significant level. also, what rank are you?


Well, he just advised me to "PUNISH" a hatch first with a gateway first build on Taldarim, so I would say that his game knowledge is a bit lacking for a GM player.
DemonDeacon
Profile Joined February 2012
United States158 Posts
February 23 2012 19:50 GMT
#473
i respect new players who go random because they want to learn all the races and figure out which race fits them best but imo i think it'd be easier to practice one race at a time to learn how to play each race properly. it's probably hard to think on the spot what build you want to tackle when there are at least 9 possible match-ups you have to think about

i never say anything but whenever i see a random opponent i cringe a little inside because you are basically forced into doing a super safe build (half of randoms cheese the hell out of you) until you figure out which race they are. meanwhile, they could be doing a greedy build that i can't react to until i find out where they are and what they are doing. also, you can't take advantage of certain maps: if it's a big map and it's pvt i might go nexus first but if they are random and it turns out they are protoss, well i just lost to a 4 gate. meanwhile if they are t and i did a safe build because i don't know what race they are, well then they could have gone 3 fast command centers for free and are ready to defend by the time i find them.

almost half the people i play on ladder cheese, but at least if i know what race they are i can tailor my build toward the cheeses 1 race can do, rather than vs 3.
gg
CarlosOmse
Profile Joined October 2011
Germany507 Posts
February 23 2012 19:50 GMT
#474
On February 23 2012 22:49 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:
As a former random player, trust me - people will bm/rage no matter what league you are. Funny enough, when I played random, I also got bm/hate for every possible race that popped up even though I was random.


haha yes same here been flamed so many time for my particular race beeing a noob race back when i played random
a book is like a mirror if a monkey looks into it no philosopher will look back
Aegeis
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States1619 Posts
February 23 2012 19:51 GMT
#475
On February 23 2012 22:49 iLLiTHiD wrote:
My guess is because most random players, especially in lower leagues, don't play any one race particularly better than the other. So a lot of them settle for one-base all-ins and cheese. Obviously there are exceptions to the rule but in my experience, random players are much more likely to do one-base plays instead of actually playing a macro game.


And when they do all-in/cheese it's usually not that good since they haven't practiced it optimally. I prefer random players because I know they aren't that solid in my experience.
"Skills to pay the bills" - Artosis, https://twitter.com/AegeisSC2 ,http://www.tumblr.com/blog/socal-esports
Ceio
Profile Joined January 2011
Scotland27 Posts
February 23 2012 19:51 GMT
#476
As a zerg player I hate the fact that I can be faced in a situation that I rarely have played out and that puts me at a disadvantage, for example:

ZvT
Hatch first is so much better, 14/14 can put you at a significant advantage as your creep spread is diminished because you get additional queens a lot later ( 3 and/or 4) and the zergling speed isnt required as quickly. Also the timings are slightly foreign in the matchup.
ZvP
Hatch first can be death vs a well executed cannon rush on some maps, it also welcomes a pylon wall in and other unusual situations which really, I do not want to play in games.
ZvZ
I prefer to play 14/14 as I believe this is the least "coin-flippy" of the opening builds as, correctly played, you can still come out ahead vs a hatch first, your pretty safe to an early pool, and if he goes 14/14, well... your safe. If I play hatch first and it turns out my opponent is zerg and I have been 6-9 pooled ( more often the case vs a random player generally ) then that also puts me behind

For me, when I played random, I would tell my opponent what race I was because at the time I just enjoyed playing all 3 races equally as much.

TL;DR I hate guessing opening builds as a zerg player that I haven't played out as often in that m/u
ZasZ.
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2911 Posts
February 23 2012 19:51 GMT
#477
On February 24 2012 04:36 BeeNu wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:30 rycho wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:20 tztztz wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:11 dAPhREAk wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:10 tztztz wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:07 dAPhREAk wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:02 Innovation wrote:
A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.

- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.

- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.

- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.

- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.

Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.

This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.

In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.

Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill

random is the fourth race. just because you cant deal with it doesnt mean they have an unfair advantage. you need to learn some vR builds and stop complaining.


random would only be an acceptable forth race, if there would be a way to balance it. but like some poeple already pointed out in this thread, its not possible to balance random.

its balanced around the fact that nobody has the time to learn every single matchup perfectly, so when they play random they are at a disadvantage against people who specialize in one race.


no its not, becauce you're not matches against better players. the match making system only cares for your mmr, and not for your race. if you are in gold league, you are not 1/3 as good as other people on gold league in a particular match up, you are AT THE SAME LEVEL AS THEM, it only took you 3 times as long to get there. so if a random players queues up, he will play a player of the same skill, but he will have the advantage of knowing his race. the disadvantage of playing random is the time it took you to get at this level, and it has no influence on the match you are about to play.


i applaud your effort, but people have been trying to explain this to these dumbasses for like, 20 pages, and they don't understand it yet. i don't think theres any hope.


Yep, the concept is really quite simple but people choose to remain ignorant despite people explaining it over and over again.

Playing random gives you the unfair advantage of knowing your opponent's race when they don't know your race, simple as that.

Arguing that playing Random is harder so it's fair is a completely illogical and pointless argument. That's like two people agreeing to a knife fight but one guy shows up with a gun and claims it's fair because he payed more for the gun than the other guy payed for his knife.


Your analogy is dumb. No one agreed to it being a knife fight, so you can't be pissed when someone brings a gun. It's actually like the race-picker was offered a gun and refused. If Random makes it so much easier, pick it and stop bitching.

If people would actually think about the builds they're using and the scouting information they're gathering, rather than regurgitating the latest build order they found on TL, they might figure out a stable way of playing when they don't know their opponent's race for the first ~40 seconds of the game. But no, disruption of their little practice bubble is unthinkable.
DemonDeacon
Profile Joined February 2012
United States158 Posts
February 23 2012 19:52 GMT
#478
+ Show Spoiler +
On February 24 2012 04:49 Spieltor wrote:
its very simple.

if the random is zerg, you might get cheesed by a 6 pool. you have to choose the ultimate safe build for every race, which means if the random went extra greedy, you have no way to punish them and are therefore behind. The only thing you can do at this point is have superior counter building and unit control to dig out of the hole.

Another way of thinking it, is comparing the RANDOM to the zerg problem with scouting COMPETENT protoss or terran players. You have no idea how much you can drone or tech, or if you should be laying down defenses and hammering that roach button like no tomorrow. The only difference is that learning the timings of P and T backwards and forwards can help about 25% to mitigate this issue. There is nothing a person can learn or figure out in order to mitigate the possible Greed or Cheese play from a random.


well said
gg
tztztz
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany314 Posts
February 23 2012 19:53 GMT
#479
On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point?

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game.


You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument:

If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random?
-The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level.

Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage.


its only is disadvantage at pro level because its pretty hard to get there. lol, its even a absurd statement. no sry, i have to rephrase it: no, playing random at the pro level is NOT a disadvantage. the only problem is we don't have a random player at pro level. if there would be a random player at the same level es MVP, he would defenitly have a HUGE advantage against him in a best of 7
THM
Profile Joined November 2010
Bulgaria1131 Posts
February 23 2012 19:54 GMT
#480
On February 24 2012 04:47 FallDownMarigold wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 24 2012 04:40 BeeNu wrote:
On February 24 2012 04:37 FallDownMarigold wrote:

On the other hand, of course, even if this alleged advantage to playing random exists, it most certainly is counter-balanced by the fact that random players need to practice 3 separate races and all those match ups, period.


I don't think you [along with a lot of other people apparently] grasp the reality that how hard you work to play the game at a certain level has literally no bearing whatsoever on spawning race imbalance. Your argument would be the same as if I argued that steriods should be allowed in sports competitions because sure while it gives an advantage it balances out because of the physical health risks. You see my point?

And yes, spawning as Random does give an advantage, it's not something to speculate about it's clear and obvious fact for anybody who has an ounce of insight as to how this game works.

And another thing, you may think the advantage of playing Random is "slight" but the higher up in league you go the more of a massive difference it makes were say, in Masters your opening build order can completely change the entire pace of the game.


You don't see my point then. He offered a very cogent argument:

If random has an inherent advantage that any single race lacks, why are no pros random?
-The implication is that, evidently, random is not any more advantageous than any single race. On the contrary, the fact that no pros play random leads one to imagine that playing random is disadvantageous at the pro level.

Now, one could imagine that even if there is an advantage, perhaps this early-game advantage doesn't matter due to the fact that playing random is already vastly disadvantageous. Why is it already vastly disadvantageous? The answer is obvious: three times the amount of races to know equally well. Your analogy to steroid use is horrible, sorry. It's not at all the same.

Since you think my response to him is utter shit, what's your response to it? I'm interested to know why no pros play random if random has a special advantage.



Correct. No one on the pro level plays random as it requires you to practice 3 times more than everyone else just to be on their level.

And you get what? Your opponent feeling slightly uncomfortable with his build until he scouts you? It's just not worth it.
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