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Random is actually imbalanced imo.
atleast against toss
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Playing random is awesome, gives you such a wide spread of matchups to play. Sure you might receive some hate from time to time, but every race gets that ^^.
The best part for me is that i can relax much more when I'm playing random, when i played Terran i always got pissed after losing, as random it just doesn't sting as much. Besides i don't need to feel the urge to complain about balance since I'll get both the winning and losing hands.
I can understand that some people get angry that they can't do their specific opening, but man if their only playing one race i think they can handle to have a general build the first minutes of the game those few times they meet us randomers..
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On February 24 2012 03:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. I guess I would be most loved or hated player in this thread, eh? Playing random is hard, deal with it y'all. And quit being little bitches about it, how hard is that?
Its not that fucking hard, if you off-race you will normally go down maximum 1 league, now add inn that your enemy doesn't know what race you are playing and have to go for a stupid opening, which will make you be ages ahead off your enemy, making the match-up easier for you.
I have tried out all 3 races to a EU platinum level, and I have no problem holding myself up at a high gold/low platinum level on ladder if I switch to random.
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PvR on a map like tal darim is absolutely ridiculous the random player has a gigantic advantage. If your opponent is zerg and you don't FFE you are far behind. If he's toss and you do FFE you lose. You can't 1 base because you can't properly wall since there is no ramp. You really only have 2 viable builds in this situation and those are cannon cheese and 4 gate
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They're just hoping that it's a David Kim smurf they're calling a piece of shit.
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because we have to change our opening buildings to account for the fact that you could be any of the 3 races. it can really mess up the entire game. i always 4gate vs randoms just to get the game over with quickly.
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On February 24 2012 03:44 iTzSnypah wrote:
Random players usually all-in, and those who don't usually have 1 race holding them back at your MMR, so if you get them on one of their good races, they usually just roll you.
Lol yeah I really want to know what my MMR curve is. I saw a thread about it and I think mine must be like the bell curve from hell in Phys 222.
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I enjoy playing random as I want an even chance of playing each race without having to play on different accouts. Its annoys me when people BM me or all-in me cos I am Random. Especially as my Toss and Terran are both at the same level as my MMR is.
Sadly there are a few people who play random so they can cheese or lie about their race. I thought I had a PvP (RvR) when he told me his race, followed by a 10 pool. (I won) but there is a minority that abuse the system.
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On February 24 2012 03:48 Pusekatten wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. I guess I would be most loved or hated player in this thread, eh? Playing random is hard, deal with it y'all. And quit being little bitches about it, how hard is that? Its not that fucking hard, if you off-race you will normally go down maximum 1 league, now add inn that your enemy doesn't know what race you are playing and have to go for a stupid opening, which will make you be ages ahead off your enemy, making the match-up easier for you. I have tried out all 3 races to a EU platinum level, and I have no problem holding myself up at a high gold/low platinum level on ladder if I switch to random.
Then quit whining?
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Because random players suck with all races and all they do is abusive builds all in.
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I like getting randoms, it means all I have to do is survive the cheese and I will win. Because they are ok at playing all 3 races instead of being really good with one race.
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Cause they are brainwashed into thinking you can't play solid vs random.. just like any other rts game..
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On February 24 2012 03:51 Arghmyliver wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:48 Pusekatten wrote:On February 24 2012 03:31 randomKo_Orean wrote:On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. I guess I would be most loved or hated player in this thread, eh? Playing random is hard, deal with it y'all. And quit being little bitches about it, how hard is that? Its not that fucking hard, if you off-race you will normally go down maximum 1 league, now add inn that your enemy doesn't know what race you are playing and have to go for a stupid opening, which will make you be ages ahead off your enemy, making the match-up easier for you. I have tried out all 3 races to a EU platinum level, and I have no problem holding myself up at a high gold/low platinum level on ladder if I switch to random. Then quit whining?
you didn't get it did you? I'm not whining about random being hard to play or that its unfair in this post.
I'm pointing out to someone who is whining about that playing random takes more skills because you have to know more match-ups etc, that it's not so hard, and he should stop whining.
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To me, playing vs random is like playing any other matchup: just learn builds that can transition vs all three races. I have my little brother (who can school me with all three races) random vs me on a fairly regular basis just so that I can practice it because so many people at my level random.
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A bunch of people have touched upon the reasons but I don't think anyone has really spelled it out.
- At higher levels of play opening builds are extremely important and can set someone seriously ahead or behind from the beginning prior to the ability to scout effectively. A decent random player knows what his opponenets safe build will most likely be and can dominate it by taking shortcuts or playing extra greedy.
- A zerg player is worst off against randoms and almost always needs to open with a pool first speedling expand build because if a random player gets zerg it's an auto loss. Pool first speedling builds are not very economical and can be dominated on many maps by a greedy terran or protoss. If the zerg decides to gamble on a pool first no gas opening (66%) chance of being ok he/she will auto lose 33% of games, be slightly behind 33% of the time and be on equal footing 33% of the time. This means that against a random you're always statistically at a dissadvantage as zerg.
- A protos player is slightly less affected because even though he/she cannot forge first FE against zerg there are forms of 1 gate expand or 3 gate expand that are still viable options against zerg. Against Protoss and Terran the build can be adapted by the time a scout is possible to not be significantly behind. A protoss player has a 66% chance of being on equal footing and a 33% chance of being behind.
- A Terran player can open standard baracks gas but will be somewhat behind vs another terran player that is able to pull off a greedy FE. Against zerg and protoss the builds can usually be adapted within scouting time. So this puts terran behind about 33% of the time against a random.
Either way a random player ALWAYS has an unfair advantage. Adding more injury to this is the fact that the vast majority of random players will utilize an all in thats really hard to defend without a specific counter build. Which of course is just the luck of the draw for you to scout it in time to adapt.
This is why random is not allowed in competition, it's also why people call random players newbs and scrubs and BM. Random players get wins through luck, and exploiting unfair advantages over players that have better game knowledge and better mechanics. Random players get to Masters and GM that would be stuck in Diamond if they simply picked.
In Broodwar random was outlawed in competiion and there were far fewer opportunities for build order losses. In Starcraft 2 this problem is amplified as there is already an element of chance even among two picked race players. A really good RTS seeks to minimize or eliminate pure chance and maximize the benefit of skill.
Random destroys the integrity of competitive play. For all those who play random and say, hey! I've played thousands of games and worked just as hard as anyone else at this game. That may be true, but you're always exploiting an unfair advantage and as a random player you can't be as good late game as a single race player. This is why most random players all-in, they lose in the late game. If you always play a straight up game then grats to you but you're 1 out of a hundred other random players that are simply trash players in leagues way above their actual skill
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Okay, so I get the "just play a little safer and learn to scout, it's not that hard!".
Indeed it's not, put like this.
Now I'm going to bring you a common case of PvR, just tell me how to crack that.
I'm on Tal Darim, he's Random, I will scout with my 9 pylon probe, earlier scout timings I deem irrelevant and plain silly. Let's say he spawned at the last position I'll scout. Where do I place my first pylon and what is my first building?
I have basically 3 options for the placement:
1) At the main's choke.
2) At the natural's choke.
3) Next to my nexus.
2 options for the building, 1 more if I want to go Nexus first, but let's cross that off:
1) Gateway
2) Forge
Now what are the outcomes?
- Okay, I made a Forge, but he's Terran. I'm pretty fucked, don't you think? What do I do? Cannon-rush? vs Terran? Forge expand? vs Terran? Let's give up on the Forge idea.
- Gateway it is then. I chose to make it at spot 1) or 2). He is Protoss. Tal darim is 4gate vs 4gate (it is, don't try to deny it), so it'll be a 4gate. A forward gateway can be abused by stalkers, and so can be the pylon. Losing a gateway is really bad in 4 gate wars, and it doens't require that much experience to 4gate. I would say the random is ahead, without doing anything, in a matchup that is micro based and doesn't require much Protoss lategame experience at all.
- Okay, so I put my Gateway in spot 3), next to my Nexus. I'm fine in PvP. I'm fine in PvT. Oh, he's Zerg. I see he hatched first. I'm now with a gateway first build, on a map without a main ramp, against the most economical Zerg build. Did you ever see any theorycrafting for this situation? No you didn't, because it doesn't exist in any PvZ game. And this situation is actually strictly worse than every opening you can think of in traditional PvZ. A great start indeed.
- Note that even disregarding PvP, a gateway build on Taldarim vs Zerg, no matter the placement, is not at all optimal. It's not actually playing safer, it's taking huge risks at the start of the game, because your opponent made the good decision of... picking Random.
Ask every Protoss, this situation is real, it's not something I invented. It's only for one ladder game, yes, but most likely a game we won't learn anything from.
Could I have scouted earlier? Well no, what do you want me to do? Send one of my 6 starting workers? Might as well proxy something in the middle of the map then.
Could I have played safer? Well, you'll note that it's not even my build yet that I'm talking about. It's my fucking first pylon and my first building. There are not that many combinations, so you can just try them all.
THIS is why we don't like playing against Random.
Not because you're all cheesy.
Not because you're all better players than us.
Not because you're all assholes.
Because the game just doesn't make any sense against Random, no matter how good you are, or how good your Random fellow is...
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As a GM/Top Masters random, I don't get much hate on the NA ladder. It's actually mostly the reverse, as I get some respect for playing random at the top of ladder.
EDIT: And I personally believe random should be treated as a fourth race. As alot of people have "one build for each matchup" on ladder, a fourth build is needed to dedicate to vs random.
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The mere fact that your opponent knows what matchup he's playing while you don't, IMO, is enough to justify rage vs random. Sometimes you just autolose because you did a build for the wrong matchup (esp on big 4player maps, unlucky scout -> autolose).
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On February 24 2012 03:53 Silentenigma wrote:
Because random players suck with all races and all they do is abusive builds all in.
On February 24 2012 03:54 KrsOne wrote:
I like getting randoms, it means all I have to do is survive the cheese and I will win. Because they are ok at playing all 3 races instead of being really good with one race.
You suck and all you do is abusive all in builds.
See how the argument falls apart when you just say random shit?
Watch:
Your mothers a hippo and all she does is all in builds.
Once I ate an octopus and all it did was all in builds.
Ten years ago I met a family of Garage Musicians. They sucked and only did abusive power chord builds.
Once I was playing poker and lost cause the guy just did cheesy all-ins.
Homer Dingleberry elephant night swallowers ate my rumpletweezer and my bubbles kerniggit cheesy all in builds.
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EPT
