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On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit.
Well, way to dodge the argument.
Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills".
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On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind"
No, i t was a fair description.
Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit.
Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead.
Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true.
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On February 24 2012 03:26 Arghmyliver wrote:
I was actually going to start maining a race, but now seeing the QQ and how I will get statistically more free wins from you quitters, I'm prbly gonna stick Random. I wish TLO would come on this post and back us Rs up. Even if he is zerg he is still R at heart.
TLO is a pro that only looks to play macro games usually. He won't just rush someone because they guessed incorrectly as to what his race was.
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On February 24 2012 03:07 mcc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:39 rycho wrote:On February 24 2012 02:31 mcc wrote:On February 24 2012 02:08 rycho wrote:
i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me, but i will echo what some other people have already posted: as a protoss player, i don't want to open gate first after scouting on pylon, and i don't want to worry about stupid shitty walloffs. i also have pretty much zero interest in 1-base pvz openers.
on bigger maps like tda, even 9 scouting i often fail to discover my opponents race before i have to decide on an opener. my opponent, meanwhile, has all this information, and is probably going to use it to 1-base me. this is why i leave or cheese every game against random.
personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race. This is the funniest response (and more people share this sentiment int this thread). Do you actually get that ladder is not a tournament. I could understand if tournaments banned random. But ladder , lol. The funniest thing is how many people are hypocritical in this thread. They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. Or even better cheese the random player under the assumption that he will cheese just so they do not lose ladder points. Aren't those non-random players actually the ones obsessed with ladder points ? Maybe you could instead believe those random players that say their race and try to play a good game and if they lied, so what at worst you lost. That is not life ending experience. lol? no shit it isn't a tournament, thats why i leave the game when my opponent is random, because i really don't give a fuck if it affects my ranking. i really don't think you could find someone who cares less about "ladder points" than i do. i simply don't enjoy pvr starcraft because i feel like i'm behind based on game mechanics i can't control, so i'd rather play pvp/pvz/pvz with my free time. when i feel like it, i'll throw in a proxy gate opener vs a random player here and there just out of boredom, and i'm curious why you would post something like: They complain that random players are just cheesing for ladder points, but what do they do in response, they complain that they might lose some ladder points by losing due to ffe against 6-pool. when the first sentence of the post you quoted is: i don't really give a shit if the random player cheeses me how is that a complaint? its the exact opposite of a complaint, its apathetic. i don't know how you people get through the day sometimes with the stupid shit you infer. this thread is really sad, i thought this place was more heavily moderated. You are definitely not apathetic, because you actually said at the end of your post "personally, i don't think random should be an option for ladder race.". If you would be, you would not care one way or the other. And your second paragraph is full of complaining, so yes you are actually complaining. But to clarify as parts of my post are not perfect match to your post, my post was meant as a general answer to similar posts throughout this thread since I did not want to go and search for every one of them. I noted that somewhat at the beginning of my post though.
wrong, having an opinion on how ladder should be set up isn't the same as caring. i don't think you know what apathy means. yes, i think in an ideal world the random option would be removed from bnet, and no, leaving a game once in a while before it starts doesn't really bother me. this is really simple lol
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On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true.
They can if you tell them what you spawned as at the beginning of the game. That's what I did when I played random a few months back.
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The way I see it, Random gets a small advantage because their opponent has to open safer, and in return they have to master 3 races instead of 1. Sounds fair to me. Then again, I'm Zerg, and I can 11 pool 18 hatch and be safe + economic against all three races. No idea about the whole wall off issue as a Protoss...
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On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system.
Well said. A random player will always be playing against sub-optimal strategies because his/her opponent is FORCED to play super safe for the initial minutes of the game.
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On February 24 2012 03:30 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. Well, way to dodge the argument. Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills".
you do realize that you dont have to play each race exclusively to know all the standard build orders of each race, right? thats why coaches are able to coach more than one race, and commentators are able to discuss multiple match-ups.
i play random, i am in master's league, and i suck balls. i have never cheesed or all-inned a 1v1 game on the ladder because i find those games incredibly boring. i play random because i get bored playing the same race over and over; also another reason why i suck balls. if you play this game to get really good, you'll need to specialize on one race, but if you are just playing it for fun then random is the way to go in my mind.
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On February 24 2012 03:34 Nosforit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true. They can if you tell them what you spawned as at the beginning of the game. That's what I did when I played random a few months back.
yeah, and when they say, i spawned as protoss but really spawned as zerg? you can't take them at their word because if you do and the above happens its pretty much an auto loss because you believed them. and if you don't well then you are still in the same boat, having to always wall in, which, speciffically for protoss, is a bad thing UNLESS its zerg, at which point you are still behind because you didn't fast expand.
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On February 24 2012 03:35 Ainvar wrote:
The way I see it, Random gets a small advantage because their opponent has to open safer, and in return they have to master 3 races instead of 1. Sounds fair to me. Then again, I'm Zerg, and I can 11 pool 18 hatch and be safe + economic against all three races. No idea about the whole wall off issue as a Protoss...
Try deciding if you should wall off on a map like TDA.
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On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true.
stupid shit = scout?
obviously, zergs wont go fe until they scout, and tosses wont go ffe, but other than that, it really doesn't change the matchup. and you can always say your race at the beginning (i believe day9 said he does this).
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I get BM all the time for playing Random. No matter what race I get, if I win from a small push that is supposed to just apply pressure they say I all-in when in reality I'm not. I prefer macro games over 1 base games.
But another reason why people hate on Random players is because they don't know what to open with so they have to waste to the time on an early scout.
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On February 24 2012 03:28 AXygnus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:06 Arghmyliver wrote:On February 24 2012 03:01 AXygnus wrote:
Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg? Solution. 1. Select Worker. Hotkey. 2. Right click one of the other spawns on minimap. Hold shift, right click each other spawn. 3. You have just "scouted" all pros (even SjoW now usu.) use this little-known strategy to gain important info about opponent. What if you scout him late? On a map like Tal'darim? Your build gets botched.
Stop whining. Terran is the easiest vs. Random race to play as. It is the one race with a basically cheese proof macro-opener that works vs. all races: 1 Rax FE. If you seriously can't play a generic build order to victory against a player that has less experience against your race, you're probably not a good player.
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On February 24 2012 03:20 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" Ok, you just didn't understand at all, did you? First of all, playing strategy A is not the same as playing AGAINST strategy A, that's just plain wrong. That's like saying that playing Terran is the same as playing vs Terran. Hint: it's not. You might have a slightly better understanding of a build's weaknesses by playing it yourself, but you certainly don't know how to play against it, don't spout such bullshit now. Second, I was not complaining about MY losses, but about YOUR almighty "macro random" attitude. It's YOU who play the fucking distorted matchups, not me (well, except against randoms, of course). At least random cheesers are honest to themselves ;D
Sure openings are important and you might fall a little behind early on because of your opponent playing random. But there are so many tricks and ways to pull back ahead in SC2, it just implies taking a few risks at some point ... which I guess is very scary for some players.
It may be my mistake for not reading every single message of the post, but I don't see or know many random players claiming to be all mighty because they play the 3 races.
Also, you might consider that many maps and/or situations will make the game such way that the non-random player knows the random player's race before having to make any big decision (even on TDA there's still one chance out of 3 your scouting worker meets his on the way and you get the information on time).
I'm not trying to say all random players who can pull off a decent macro game should have this all mighty macro attitude, I'm just saying your argument isn't valid at all. Random players may face uncommon openers but it doesn't mean they won't face the classic ones too.
I'm random only, I played more than a 1000 games, and I've faced countless 15 Hatch when i was Terran and countless FFE or nexus First when I was Zerg, in facts this is more than 50% of the openers I faced in these match-ups.
Go play Random if you don't believe it ...
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
On February 24 2012 03:30 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:26 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. wait what WHAT i don't even know how to respond to this. you are using quotes inappropriately, implying that you've watched every single one of my random games for the past decade, and assuming your "bit of random" experience in whatever scrub league you're in gives you complete understanding of my starcraft skills. how did you come up with this style of argumentation? are you for real? only thing that's correct in that entire post is that i know 3 races and i'm the shit. Well, way to dodge the argument. Fine, you know 3 races, and you're the shit, I get it. You should rest and meditate on your "starcraft skills".
the argument? k i will respond to your paragraph of gibberish
i know how to play vs forge FE because i played zerg for about 500 games and zvt was my best matchup. before that i played terran for even more games, where tvz was my best matchup and where i got raped by nexus first more times than probably all of your games combined.
you sound really bitter, and you shouldn't be. why is it so hard to accept that there are decent random players?
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On February 24 2012 03:34 Nosforit wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:30 aebriol wrote:On February 24 2012 03:10 Emix_Squall wrote:On February 24 2012 02:55 ZenithM wrote:On February 24 2012 02:34 intrigue wrote:On February 24 2012 02:12 liberal wrote:
People have trouble accepting the fact that someone could be so much better than them that they can play 3 times as many matchups and reach the same league as they are in. They assume the person is not more skilled than they are, that the person must just pull it off by doing simplistic cheese builds.
I'll admit I've played quite a few randoms who did cheese me, so there are people out there who do that. But I'm top 25 master with random and I play 100% standard macro games, and when it comes down to a macro game I usually win. The reason I can win with random is BECAUSE I can macro, not because I wasted my time memorizing a bunch of build orders and gimmicky strats. exactly this. i play random exclusively because i think it gives me a more complete experience of the game, and because i'm confident enough in my skill level to not care if i lose. even after getting outplayed badly in standard macro games, people still attribute it to me being random. anyone i beat randoming zerg (not specifically) with any of my races is probably going to lose to my terran and protoss too, even if they picked beforehand for me. also as random i rarely get cheesed. if you can't stand all this alleged cheesing on ladder (only reason anyone loses, right?), maybe you should consider being random yourself. random vs random is an incredible matchup. See, this is what I don't like with random players. The non-cheesy ones are even worse than the cheesers. They think of them as some kind of big shots because they "master 3 races" and beat scrubs who only know 1 race in "macro games". Well, you're fooling yourselves guys, plain and simple. You don't know what it's like to play vs forge fast-expand, for example. How can you claim being some kind of macro gosu if you don't even play against PvZ's most standard opener? I played a bit of random myself. When I spawned TvZ, guess what, the other guy didn't even hatch first, for fear of some ZvZ build order loss (why would he risk hatching first against a most likely lesser Z?). So all the TvZ I played were against pool first. What's the standard in ZvT guys? Hatch first, that's right, not the crappy build you're always playing against in TvZ. Nexus first in TvP? I bet you didn't ever see that one with your T right? "Normal scrub" Terrans scratch their heads trying to know how to keep up with/punish it. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples in all matchups. Please don't come at us with that "I know 3 races and I'm the shit" kind of attitude. You know 9 lesser and distorted versions of all matchups, is all what you know. It's good, but it's not the full game. You might be a good player, but you're a good ZvWankyGatewayExpands player, not a good ZvP player, and won't ever be acknowledged as such, with Blizzard's current system. And this is where you are fooling yourself big boy ... we might not face this kind of builds as often but we can still do some of these builds ourself since we got the information ... and playing with a build means loosing and winning with it, implying that at some point we might understand it's weaknesses and strengths. What you just wrote was just a ridiculous attempt to justify your losses against Random players .... "It's not my fault, it's just this twisted version of the match-up that got me behind" No, i t was a fair description. Random players do not know how the matchups actually work. You just don't. Because people can't play normal against you, they have to do stupid shit. Which is why those that want to know how the matchups work, race pick instead. Now - there's nothing wrong with playing random, but if you are claiming to 'master' the other races you are just fooling yourself by being completely ignorant of what everyone else knows to be true. They can if you tell them what you spawned as at the beginning of the game. That's what I did when I played random a few months back.
Call me a cynic, but people lie... and I this has happened to me a few times. I still wouldn't risk a FFE if the R told me he was zerg. Too risky that he's actually toss. You may not be a lying ****, but many people are... immature.
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It's annoying to play at the beginning, but I never BM if I lose. While I do see a lot of cheese when I play randoms, I always know my losses were a result of my own mistakes. Other people just like to have a reason other then themselves when they lose.
Personally, I enjoy playing random players if I can make it past the early game because I know I'll have the macro advantage.
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Random players usually all-in, and those who don't usually have 1 race holding them back at your MMR, so if you get them on one of their good races, they usually just roll you.
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On February 24 2012 03:28 AXygnus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2012 03:06 Arghmyliver wrote:On February 24 2012 03:01 AXygnus wrote:
Random screws up openings.
Ever tried doing a 1rax concussive shell pressure into FE against Zerg? Solution. 1. Select Worker. Hotkey. 2. Right click one of the other spawns on minimap. Hold shift, right click each other spawn. 3. You have just "scouted" all pros (even SjoW now usu.) use this little-known strategy to gain important info about opponent. What if you scout him late? On a map like Tal'darim? Your build gets botched.
You should be accounting for rush distance. Tal'Darim is really big so rushes/early timings like six pool, conc pressure are not going to be as good simply due to travel. Try maybe one rax FE and throw up some bunkers.
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EPT
