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hate to say it but that 2k gas could be 2k minerals if you just didn't mine the gas in the first place.
Battlecruiser is viable if Terran made enough vikings to take air dominance, even if there is a warp prism backstab, protoss won't be able to base race a terran who has air dominance.
Im also interested in seeing terran pre stim before droping to use medivac energy to prevent a feedback snipe on a full medivac.
As for the post about a late game 3 thor drop in protoss main. If you catch anybody with their pants down you're going to be able to win. The drop has to be unseen, and if scouted you may end up with the thors isolated and picked off. Its like saying, "Well if Terran moves out ill just swing 3 carriers into his main. Oh but he had vikings well I just use mass recall on the carriers with my mother ship, and then vortex half the bio-ball after the carriers take out a bunch of add-ons."
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Mass BC can work but you need to EMP them all and also make sure you don't stack them while making sure he didn't get Stalkers in the late game.
He can just base race you though because his "slow" army is much faster than yours now.
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On February 16 2012 00:01 KaiserJohan wrote:
Please, don't suggest Mech. If you think it is even remotely possible atleast start with a bunch of replays from pros using it... and you won't find any. Can you guess why?
There was a good discussion on SotG where incontrol demolished the argument, and rightfully so.
Biomech is really awkward beyond 1 or 2-base pushes. Not only do you need two different armor/wep tech routes, bio's mobilty gets severely reduced by the siege tanks immobility. Also marines in the lategame... unless you are MVP, it ain't gonna work it very well, which is why you see alot of ghosts+marauder+medivac+viking compositions, simply because it dosn't melt as fast to storms and collosus.
Protoss was basically made to counter any ground-based mech-type compositions.
Can you post the link to that VOD? I'd love to hear incontrol's argument because this is a very interesting subject for a lot of people.
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Protoss can't base race Terran with out air control unless the Protoss has a much larger army with ground control and enough stalkers to fight the terran head on. Terran will just lift off and use their banshee bc viking combo to pick off all the protoss tech, nexi, army, etc.
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Its very interesting, I really thank and appreciate all you for contributing.
After reading all the comments, I can see that some players think MMMVG is still the way to go in lategame TvP, whereas some players also suggest mech as being viable in TvP lategame.
I think what we need as a T is to practice a lot and find out if mech truly works or not 
Myself? I love mech so much, but perhaps I just need to mix in some starports units. I know Banshees are really good vs P too. And since I love ghosts so much, I should increase my APM a lot so I can accomodate some nukes to kill the oh-so-annoying Gateways 
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In my opinion, a lot of Terrans under-estimate the amount of Micro a Protoss has to do, but at the same time, the Protoss over-estimate the amount of stuff they have to do.
I'd say that Terran is more APM intensive, but punishes mistakes less than protoss. The difference is that you can make them more easily, such as letting the Protoss go un-checked for a long time.
On the other hand, Protoss have less decisions, but if they make the wrong ones, they get behind.
The big difference is that often, the Protoss can simply sit back and macro up without doing any sort of pressure, but Terran always has to do stuff like that. Protoss decisions are also easier to make correctly than Terran ones.
The same thing applies to Zerg to an extent, though Zerg is slightly more like Terran is in TvP, due to the fact that their maxed armies are smaller, and easier to kill.
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The 200/200 fight is more or less in favor slightly of Protoss because of all the micro Terran has to do, but with good micro it should go in the Terran's favor I believe. I think the deal breaker though is the 15-20 Gateways that Protoss has late game and the fact that they can get 30-40 supply instantly. Generally Terran is never fighting a 200/200 Protoss army, it's like a 230-240 army. Chargelots already take a long time to kill and when they die a new round of Chargelots appear. ><" Also, banked gas is not useless for Protoss as those can be Archons or Templar whereas Terran is always struggling to spend their gas late game.
Most of the time when people are complaining though, they always sit in storms, can't kite well, and usually don't have the right unit composition so I'm not sure you should listen to the TvP threads lately. In my opinion, it's the equivalent of losing their marine tank army to blings cause they can't micro.
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I believe that most Terran's think they have to 'out-macro' a Protoss to have a chance of winning. For example the ever-so popular 3OC before gas; I must have more SCV's than the Protoss has probes is the wrong way of looking at the match-up. I've came to the conclusion that being mildly greedy while teching produces the highest winrate for me. TvP is a tech-war match up. It comes down to who can have the most tech while still having a decent sized core army. Most Terrans screw up the Eco/Army/Tech proportions. An example is, right after 3OC the standard is to rush for double medivac's. So the Terran has 4 naked barracks producing marines, and double medivac's while having a HUGE economy. Why does Terran rush Medivac's? So he can start drops, not to bolster his core army. Why does a Protoss rush Colossus when he gets to 2base, to bolster his core army so that it plainly just kills yours hardcore. By the time a Terran has the Tech in place both players are 4base+. In which Terran should lose because the Protoss has had ample time to prepare his deathball to perfection.
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Bio is just more micro-intensive, regardless of matchup, whether it's Marine splits in TvZ or drops/flanks in TvT or the big deathball control in TvP. You just have to control better, coax him into engaging in a bad position, dodge/snipe/EMP storms, snipe Colossi, and kite Zealots.
It's not easy but it's super rewarding if you do it well. Also I highly recommend practicing on Darlgein's Micro Trainer, the Terran vs Deathball scenario, it's not perfect but it beats one big fight every 20 minutes
Other compositions are still iffy... Genius would have beaten MKP's mech on Dual Sight had he not lost so many Probes, and they are also learning to deal with 1/1/1 better, and it's an all-in, pretty much, even if you expand as it's late and the composition loses effectiveness to Protoss tech. Thors are a little too big to synergise with your bio units, but BCs can be a viable switch, although it does leave you vulnerable and suffers from reinforcing problems.
Also, this guide to formations is relevant.
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On February 15 2012 23:11 DontLoseSightOfIt wrote:
So, in my humble opinion, I think that if you play bio in TvP, you need to be aggressive and end the game ASAP, because late game, bio simply does not stand a chance, generally speaking.
I completely agree. I have won most of my games early-mid game with heavy aggression on the Protoss. It is incredibly crucial that you try to snipe random pylons, probes, sentries, and anything else possible in TvP for that little advantage which adds up to incredible amounts early game. If you let a Protoss be, he will run you over. That, or you just have to beat the Protoss in bases, apm, micro, macro, mechanics, engagement, etc in late game.
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Interesting game for this topic for those with GSL:
asd vs Alicia G2
Code A GSL 2012 Season 1
Mass BC transition, with ghosts, still MMM. Lost. Both players IMO played pretty poorly though. lol. Alicia with the show me the money float, I think asd got far too many BC and never got yamato either, didn't nuke with this ghosts and got caught out of position.
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Eh, I used to complain about P a lot but I realized that it's basically all about getting favorable engagements. I am having way more trouble vs. Z than vs. P definitely.
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I probably have some of the worst troubles ever with Protoss but I still think that the matchup is relatively balanced from early to mid. I think it's the Terran's fault if Protoss gets too high up on bases, and that most Terrans can do a lot better to balance out their armies instead of spamming Marauders or Marines randomly and actually think about the unit composition.
With that being said, the only part I'm really annoyed about is how easily the Protoss army is like a giant ball of doom that can kill you at any second. At no point in the matchup do I really feel safe. I always feel like if I drop too much, or if I expand too fast, then the Protoss army will just come and kill me. It doesn't really help that they can get upgrades faster than me with 2 AoE dealing units that require 2 entirely different lines of tech tree to deal with.
But I have a lot I can fix, and I think the matchup from a metagame standpoint needs work. Watching the latest GSL Round of 8 has given me hope and maybe a view on what the future of the matchup will be like.
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I still would love to see how many people think Mech is a viable strategy vs P late game. Yes with bio someone said it is very rewarding if you win late game, but....it is extremely difficult.....so many things which I am sure you know about. Whereas with Mech it is still difficult but perhaps does not require as much micro as Bio.
When I say mech I dont mean pure mech as in hellions tanks thors, but those mixed with say, Ghosts, banshees, Raven etc. Mainly Mech, basically.
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One of the most important things to keep in mind is upgrades in the endgame. Protoss can rely on stalker/sentry/immortal early on, switch into heavy colossi, then tech switch into zealot/archon. It's not an unlikely army composition change. The difficulty terran has switching into mech or air is that they have different upgrades. Protoss have air and ground upgrades, which make switching into mass carriers a horrible idea considering the upgrade advantage terran/zerg has when that happens. The same goes for terran. Tank/thor/BFHellion switch is very risky because the terran must invest in factories and the appropriate armory upgrades. Air switch is a bad investment too for the same reasons.
There was a video avilo put up on youtube showing how he switches into BCs and nukes in the late game, hiding behind planetary fortresses when he's cutting down his bio so he doesn't die instantly. I think that's the best alternative to continuing bio late game, which is mass BC switch and rushing to 3-3 air upgrades. Having a good handful of bio is always useful though for dealing with pylon harrassment or mass stalkers to respond to the bcs.
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Not sure if this composition sounds interesting to anyone. But I have been testing out Marine/Medivac transitioning to Ghost/Tank in my T v P MU. I've just come back to the game after a 2 month break because of how much this MU pissed me off.
My game plan atm is just to sac constant drops into the Protoss base and do as much damage as possible, making a conscious effort to NOT lose my 2 or 3 medivacs (I try to aggressive expand behind it). Whilst at home getting that ghost/tank army up. I'm having "some" success with it, but can't draw to any conclusions... still working on it. But basically Im trying to get to a ghost/tank/marine composition with a Raven or two in the mix.
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Zurich15310 Posts
Sorry but this is nothing but a big balance discussion, certainly not a valid strategy thread.
The tools and knowledge how to play TvP are all out there. Yes it's hard. So stop posting about it and start practicing.
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EPT
