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Hi TL.
I made a discussion topic because simply, lots and lots of Terrans have been complaining about how difficult it is to play vs P, especially late game. And no, this is not an "imbalance" topic. I simply would love to see what it is that makes T think P are very hard to beat especially come late game.
Now, before going any further, I want to make this discussion a friendly, yet high quality discussion. Constructive criticism are always welcome. So please, debate in a healthy, friendly manner.
Ok. I guess to start with, I would like to ask. What is it that makes you T players think it is very incredibly hard to vs P late game? For example, just use the search function and type TvP and you will get so many results asking for help. For myself, in my humble opinion it consists of 3 things:
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Gateways reinforcements
the constant and very fast reinforcements of gateway armies, especially zealots. I had 3 marauders with stim, and was very surprised how long it took them to kill a zealot.
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Colossi
Colossi just melt bio quite easily. Colossi by themselves are ok, but when the P has HT included, Archons, it becomes a really tough battle.
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HT
Well, HT's storm is very damaging and you have to be able to spread your bio ball extremely well. Even with ghosts it is a very difficult task to do.
Back on topic, I just won a TvP where I used bio. I got lucky, I chose a really good engagement - I think engagement is extremely crucial in TvP especially, I won thanks to that. Now, people will say that if the P gets colossus, we get Vikings. If they get HT we get Ghosts. What if they get both? It gets more difficult for use because we have to micro both the Ghosts and the Vikings, whereas the P can just a move the Colossi, and spam storms.
So, in my humble opinion, I think that if you play bio in TvP, you need to be aggressive and end the game ASAP, because late game, bio simply does not stand a chance, generally speaking.
Lastly, what do you think? Is bio still the way to go? Or mech is?
Thank you for reading, I hope this will be a good and friendly and healthy discussion. 
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If you have a good spread and firing arc you can win lategame battles if you control well. Also terran is simply a lot stronger mdigame because of drops, so if you don't do any damage then you're supposed to be behind.
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From watching a lot of pvt's lately, im really starting to believe that T is in the situation where we Zergs were in before knowing how to get to BL corruptor infestor army compositions: You cant let the P get a third up. Except I think its a lot harder for T than for Z to keep him on 2 bases... I really believe that end game Bio isnt viable anymore just because Protoss' have had a year and a half of fighting against that and know they know how to position, when to engage, etc.
I really think T needs to rethink the endgame. I ve seen a few interesting posts about sky terran, marine thor banshee, etc. but have never seen them used at high level...
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the problem being Terrans using only bio to kill end game protoss.
Its's even hardly belivable that in some cases (misplaced forcefields, good positioning) a simple bio army can stim and destroy a whole T3 so-called "deathball" - it happens
what i rarely see in TVP are ghost (yea they will be nerfed but at low level nobody uses them) - raven (extremly painfull vs stalker, the stalker targetting the viking who targets the colossi)
So what is the point ?
protoss decide to invest in slow, costly, energy/micro requiring units and should loose to stimmed bio with autohealing medivacs ? thats doesnt make sense. Yea the raven is useless until he has energy; so is the templar; then why protoss manage to have templar when terran dont manage to have raven or ghost?
My humble opinion on that, is that the terran have to stop trying doing always the same units, because they work alone until plat/diamond level and actually make things that counters what the protoss is doing.
Terran suffers from their "too powerfull bio army" which makes them reach better level than their skill should allow them; and one day this stop working and they find themself incapable of evolving though that, because they were never used to.
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On February 15 2012 23:13 Arcanefrost wrote:
If you have a good spread and firing arc you can win lategame battles if you control well. Also terran is simply a lot stronger mdigame because of drops, so if you don't do any damage then you're supposed to be behind.
I agree, but the amount of micro and other things needed for bio T to win a battle vs P is very very micro intensive, I dont think even people in Diamond can do well. It just takes so much effort.
On February 15 2012 23:23 Douillos wrote:
From watching a lot of pvt's lately, im really starting to believe that T is in the situation where we Zergs were in before knowing how to get to BL corruptor infestor army compositions: You cant let the P get a third up. Except I think its a lot harder for T than for Z to keep him on 2 bases... I really believe that end game Bio isnt viable anymore just because Protoss' have had a year and a half of fighting against that and know they know how to position, when to engage, etc.
I really think T needs to rethink the endgame. I ve seen a few interesting posts about sky terran, marine thor banshee, etc. but have never seen them used at high level...
I agree too, I think T needs to rethink about army composition, engagements, etc.
On February 15 2012 23:28 darkstars111 wrote:
the problem being Terrans using only bio to kill end game protoss.
Its's even hardly belivable that in some cases (misplaced forcefields, good positioning) a simple bio army can stim and destroy a whole T3 so-called "deathball" - it happens
what i rarely see in TVP are ghost (yea they will be nerfed but at low level nobody uses them) - raven (extremly painfull vs stalker, the stalker targetting the viking who targets the colossi)
So what is the point ?
protoss decide to invest in slow, costly, energy/micro requiring units and should loose to stimmed bio with autohealing medivacs ? thats doesnt make sense. Yea the raven is useless until he has energy; so is the templar; then why protoss manage to have templar when terran dont manage to have raven or ghost?
My humble opinion on that, is that the terran have to stop trying doing always the same units, because they work alone until plat/diamond level and actually make things that counters what the protoss is doing.
Terran suffers from their "too powerfull bio army" which makes them reach better level than their skill should allow them; and one day this stop working and they find themself incapable of evolving though that, because they were never used to.
Yes I concur. I think T needs to stop using bio with medivac. Its tier 1 and 2(?) vs lots and lots of Tier 3 P units, so on paper, even this looks P is going to win. But Bio is very cost efficient and quite fast to reinforce and very mobile too.
The only choice I think we have is Bio, Mech, or BioMech, as some people are trying out in the Strategy section.
On February 15 2012 23:30 Sated wrote:
Not even a masked balance whine. Close please.
What..? Who are you? Try posting something constructive or dont post at all. Maybe because you think you have the "Liquipedia Contribution" you can say whatever you want?
I follow the guidelines, and this is a discussion on why T complain vs P late game, and not a balance whine, and I put efforts into this thread.
If you dont like it, then just dont read, easy.
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United States1892 Posts
Standard play in PvT both players go one gate/rax exp, with terran delaying gas and protoss taking the first gas at a normal timing. So at around 5 min 20 seconds Protoss is on 2 base with 3 gates and warpgate finishing or just finished and Terran will be on 2 base with 3-4 rax and some add ons. Usually around 8 minutes is when Terran starts factory and Protoss will have their first observer half way across the map.
The problem for Terran trying to engage Protoss' natural is the forcefields on the ramp. Look at XNC, many protoss will agree with me saying that TvP on that map was incredibly difficult. You have little to no terrain at the natural to help your forcefields create chokes to hold off high numbers of bio unit with medivacs. Forcefields are the greatest asset the protoss player has until HT tech and even after HT tech forcefields and sheild are extremely good against terran in general. Thors get shredded by charging zealots, which always seem to find them selves on the other side of the forcefields the thors are trying to step on anyway. Thor being the only way Terran can break a forcefield.
If Terran trys to go up a 2 ff wide choke into the natural like a lot of the newer maps feature their army gets cut by ff's then the storms drop behind the forcefields and the stalkers blink to engage the vikings while the bio can't get up the ramp. Not to mention any cannons that may be at the base.
Edit 1: Terran can use drops to take map control until the Protoss gets blink or HT tech. Feedback can shut down medivac drops and blink stalkers can shut drops too. Plus at 2x robo can produce 3-4 observers while teching to colossus and spot all the drops. Terrans goal once the game develops into a 2 base vs 2 base stalemate is contain the protoss while taking more expansions, and getting those production buildings going.
HT vs Ghosts goes like this the HT gets to feedback the ghosts and kills them/makes them useless or the Ghosts EMP/snipe and make the HT useless/kills them. It comes down to who ever is on the ball and takes the action first. Sure maybe EMP can out range the protoss, but if you drop the ball and miss your emp opportunity the HT can still feedback those ghosts. not to mention the HT are going to be spread out.
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Please, don't suggest Mech. If you think it is even remotely possible atleast start with a bunch of replays from pros using it... and you won't find any. Can you guess why?
There was a good discussion on SotG where incontrol demolished the argument, and rightfully so.
Biomech is really awkward beyond 1 or 2-base pushes. Not only do you need two different armor/wep tech routes, bio's mobilty gets severely reduced by the siege tanks immobility. Also marines in the lategame... unless you are MVP, it ain't gonna work it very well, which is why you see alot of ghosts+marauder+medivac+viking compositions, simply because it dosn't melt as fast to storms and collosus.
Protoss was basically made to counter any ground-based mech-type compositions.
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Here's my two cents. For the record I'm a Terran player, but you'll never hear me say unit 'x' is over or under powered because that solves nothing. You have to play the game as it is and accept everything in it as the way it's going to be.
When I used to go all bio I had a huge problem late game. I'd have my marauder, marine, medivac balls, maybe a ghost or two sprinkled in, and I'd see some of the following 'deathballs':
- Chargelot, archon, HT
- Stalker, zealot, sentry, collosus.
- Stalker, zealot, HT
- Stalker, voidray, zealot
Now as you can see the compositions there vary widely. Why then, as a Terran player, would I just assume my same basic MMMG composition is best suited to fight them all?
I think that's what Terrans are missing right now. You can't mass 2 units, add in a sprinkling of support units (ghost, medivac, viking) and simply expect to counter everything Protoss can do. How would that make sense?
The closest I've seen to anyone acknowledging this idea is Warden and his 'Terran Deathball' idea.Here
I know it seems the 'standard' for pro players are to mostly ignore hellions, tanks, thors, banshee, ravens, battlecruisers and reapers, and some other useful things like seeker missles. But i think a lot of strength can be found in these seldom used options.
For example, the first Protoss composition: Chargelot, archon, HT: A battlecruiser or two worked in could provide some great support. Draw the fire of archons, float past the archons and wreck HTs.
Or hellions. HTs clump up when the move. Push in with your bio ball, pull back to draw in the chargelots and archons, and flank with the hellions to hit the much slower and clumped up HTs with an AOE effect. Target down the archons with your bio ball and have the hellions join in to mop up the chargelots when all the HTs and Archons are gone.
Or a well placed seeker missle from a raven to accomplish the same thing.
Why not a line of 3-5 tanks behind your bio ball? For the second composition for example: stab out, attack the stalkers, pull back when they chase, and let a tank barraige or two soften them up. Draw the collosus into tank too to help tank them down quicker. 3-5 tanks won't break the bank and you can definitely get them out faster than you can max out a bio ball. Why are these units forgotten?
So my overall conclusion is that Terran isn't horribly inbalanced one way or another against Protoss at all. Terran is just limiting it's own potential by trying to use a fraction of their available units while Protoss has found numerous compositions to work with.
With a little more creativity from my Terran brethren I think we can come up with strategies that don't rely on simply massing two units and trying our best to dodge storms and collosus infernos.
...but that's just my opinion.
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United States1892 Posts
The second a Protoss player scouts Mech, they're going to alter their composition to include immortal, pheonix, charge, and HT/archon. The lack of mobility of mech allows the protoss player to build warp prism for storm drops, and you basically get a reversal of roles, this time protoss can go and take map control to delay the slow push from the tanks and get up on a 3rd/4th faster than terran.
Using blink to engage sieged tanks is a disaster. That's not the way to engage tanks. The proper strategy for engaging tanks is to research charge first, and go in with zealot immortal and guardian shield, use pheonix to lift tanks or voidrays to focus them, and then the stalkers are used to target fire marines while the tanks are hitting zealots. The engagement is going to be on Protoss' terms unless the terran was able to push the protoss all the way to his natural.
If there are no marines and its a pure mech style, the immortals are just going to be too good if protoss chronoboosts 8 immortals and pushes with guardian shield its going to be tough to hold even with 3 bunkers.
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Bio is the way to go in late game.
Army control and positioning wins/loses you lategame tvp matches.
Game is balanced.
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On February 16 2012 00:27 nOondn wrote:
biomech never work ....
The most closed-minded statement I've ever heard.
Perhaps it won't work for you. IF you're one of those players that can only look at a pro's replays and try to emulate them then yes, there's no chance you'll ever think on your own and come up with a style that can work.
For the rest of us non-sheep who have the ability to think outside the box there will be non-bio builds that are options. It's just a matter of finding the right balance. Just because something hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it can't be done.
If we relied on people with closed minds to rule the world we'd all still be living in caves and grunting.
So save your completely useless and unconstructive comments for some other forum.
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United States1892 Posts
Banshee Thor Raven Hellion is a strong composition. PDD shuts the stalkers down long enough for thor to snipe the observer then cloak banshee's kill everything. The Hellions are for killing the zealots attacking the thors long enough to get that observer snipe.
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What to if the Toss just sits on 2 Bases and defends ~150 then takes a third and allways is ready for drops and then just maxes and moves out. I always lose to that once HT's and Colossi both are out i'm dead . I can handle 1 of the 2 but with both out i will lose so much in fights . After that the Toss just expands all around and i can never get a foothold again.
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On February 16 2012 00:50 Sabin010 wrote:
Banshee Thor Raven Hellion is a strong composition. PDD shuts the stalkers down long enough for thor to snipe the observer then cloak banshee's kill everything. The Hellions are for killing the zealots attacking the thors long enough to get that observer snipe.
Play it with Maines and as Push and its a thousand times stronger . Helions just suck tooo much against anything that isn't light and even against Zealots they at times really really suck since they fire so strange.
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On February 16 2012 00:48 Norseman wrote:The most closed-minded statement I've ever heard. Perhaps it won't work for you. IF you're one of those players that can only look at a pro's replays and try to emulate them then yes, there's no chance you'll ever think on your own and come up with a style that can work. For the rest of us non-sheep who have the ability to think outside the box there will be non-bio builds that are options. It's just a matter of finding the right balance. Just because something hasn't been done yet doesn't mean it can't be done. If we relied on people with closed minds to rule the world we'd all still be living in caves and grunting. So save your completely useless and unconstructive comments for some other forum.
i try a lot of mech,bio mech on korean server (master league) with my own style ... -_- .
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United States1892 Posts
yeah if you use marines you only need one factory, and move out at around 12 minutes with a one base all-in or even 1 rax exp with reactor marines. Then the marines can snipe the observer too. I'm a protoss player so I'm kinda looking at the match up from the other side.
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On February 16 2012 00:52 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2012 00:50 Sabin010 wrote:
Banshee Thor Raven Hellion is a strong composition. PDD shuts the stalkers down long enough for thor to snipe the observer then cloak banshee's kill everything. The Hellions are for killing the zealots attacking the thors long enough to get that observer snipe. Play it with Maines and as Push and its a thousand times stronger . Helions just suck tooo much against anything that isn't light and even against Zealots they at times really really suck since they fire so strange.
And yet 3/4 of Protoss gateway units are light.
Though I agree that the Blueflame-Nerf and especially the Zealot Charge buff hurt hellions alot in TvP straight up fights. But they are still usable and very strong as long as there aren't too many colossi/archons around.
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For example, the first Protoss composition: Chargelot, archon, HT: A battlecruiser or two worked in could provide some great support. Draw the fire of archons, float past the archons and wreck HTs.
Or hellions. HTs clump up when the move. Push in with your bio ball, pull back to draw in the chargelots and archons, and flank with the hellions to hit the much slower and clumped up HTs with an AOE effect. Target down the archons with your bio ball and have the hellions join in to mop up the chargelots when all the HTs and Archons are gone.
Or a well placed seeker missle from a raven to accomplish the same thing.
Norseman you seem to have figured it out...except the fact seeker missiles move at a snails pace and HT have this amazing ability that is an EMP with damage that can insta-gib a raven and any BC who engages a Protoss army. Your logic of using other units that are just as flimsy if not worse against the same composition is baffling.
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EPT
