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Joedaddy
United States1948 Posts
The other big thing is the basic unit control and engaging. Getting those good emp's off on HT and sentries, attacking collossus with vikings, and trying to micro bio away from as much collossus splash dmg as possible all at the same time doesn't ever go well for me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Edit: I've been having some success going up to 3 and 4 starports after max (assuming i've made it past 3 bases also) and reinforcing with a more banshee heavy air force. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On February 16 2012 00:03 Norseman wrote: Here's my two cents. For the record I'm a Terran player, but you'll never hear me say unit 'x' is over or under powered because that solves nothing. You have to play the game as it is and accept everything in it as the way it's going to be. When I used to go all bio I had a huge problem late game. I'd have my marauder, marine, medivac balls, maybe a ghost or two sprinkled in, and I'd see some of the following 'deathballs': - Chargelot, archon, HT - Stalker, zealot, sentry, collosus. - Stalker, zealot, HT - Stalker, voidray, zealot Now as you can see the compositions there vary widely. Why then, as a Terran player, would I just assume my same basic MMMG composition is best suited to fight them all? I think that's what Terrans are missing right now. You can't mass 2 units, add in a sprinkling of support units (ghost, medivac, viking) and simply expect to counter everything Protoss can do. How would that make sense? The closest I've seen to anyone acknowledging this idea is Warden and his 'Terran Deathball' idea.Here I know it seems the 'standard' for pro players are to mostly ignore hellions, tanks, thors, banshee, ravens, battlecruisers and reapers, and some other useful things like seeker missles. But i think a lot of strength can be found in these seldom used options. For example, the first Protoss composition: Chargelot, archon, HT: A battlecruiser or two worked in could provide some great support. Draw the fire of archons, float past the archons and wreck HTs. Or hellions. HTs clump up when the move. Push in with your bio ball, pull back to draw in the chargelots and archons, and flank with the hellions to hit the much slower and clumped up HTs with an AOE effect. Target down the archons with your bio ball and have the hellions join in to mop up the chargelots when all the HTs and Archons are gone. Or a well placed seeker missle from a raven to accomplish the same thing. Why not a line of 3-5 tanks behind your bio ball? For the second composition for example: stab out, attack the stalkers, pull back when they chase, and let a tank barraige or two soften them up. Draw the collosus into tank too to help tank them down quicker. 3-5 tanks won't break the bank and you can definitely get them out faster than you can max out a bio ball. Why are these units forgotten? So my overall conclusion is that Terran isn't horribly inbalanced one way or another against Protoss at all. Terran is just limiting it's own potential by trying to use a fraction of their available units while Protoss has found numerous compositions to work with. With a little more creativity from my Terran brethren I think we can come up with strategies that don't rely on simply massing two units and trying our best to dodge storms and collosus infernos. ...but that's just my opinion. You sound like you never and i mean never actually played the game if you did you'd know why this only works in theory . Everytime i try things out of the ordinary besides Bio/1-1-1 stuff i lose super badly against even the most standard Toss army its really sad. | ||
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OriginalBeast
United States709 Posts
I would say that this match up isn't hard but definitely takes more practice to master | ||
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Demnogonis
Finland80 Posts
On February 16 2012 00:41 zezamer wrote: Bio is the way to go in late game. Army control and positioning wins/loses you lategame tvp matches. Game is balanced. Exactly. MMMGV is Terran's T3 basically. What happens with mech and sky terran is that you get overrun by much faster gateway reinforcements, you need barracks units to compete. And drops are great. I know it's not easy though. I have lost maxed 3/3 bio to a smaller 0/0 toss army only because I got caught at a terrible position. | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:00 Joedaddy wrote: For me, I have a really hard time balancing my unit composition after we've traded armies in the mid-late game. Specifically ghosts, vikings and marines. If I crush the collossus count I end up stuck with "dead supply" in vikings while he goes templar/archon/chargelot. Maybe I over make vikings? The other big thing is the basic unit control and engaging. Getting those good emp's off on HT and sentries, attacking collossus with vikings, and trying to micro bio away from as much collossus splash dmg as possible all at the same time doesn't ever go well for me. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Edit: I've been having some success going up to 3 and 4 starports after max (assuming i've made it past 3 bases also) and reinforcing with a more banshee heavy air force. Once Terran has air control with superior viking force the options are A) land the vikings in mineral lines B) reinforced with banshee's. Protoss should stop colossi production once the vikings become too much to deal with, and an air tech swap is out of the question. The response is going to be archon, and immortals out of the robo to keep them producing units. | ||
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Norseman
United States223 Posts
On February 16 2012 00:28 Sabin010 wrote: The second a Protoss player scouts Mech, they're going to alter their composition to include immortal, phoenix, charge, and HT/archon. The lack of mobility of mech allows the protoss player to build warp prism for storm drops, and you basically get a reversal of roles, this time protoss can go and take map control to delay the slow push from the tanks and get up on a 3rd/4th faster than terran. Using blink to engage sieged tanks is a disaster. That's not the way to engage tanks. The proper strategy for engaging tanks is to research charge first, and go in with zealot immortal and guardian shield, use pheonix to lift tanks or voidrays to focus them, and then the stalkers are used to target fire marines while the tanks are hitting zealots. The engagement is going to be on Protoss' terms unless the terran was able to push the protoss all the way to his natural. If there are no marines and its a pure mech style, the immortals are just going to be too good if protoss chronoboosts 8 immortals and pushes with guardian shield its going to be tough to hold even with 3 bunkers. As someone who's been working on mech builds heavily lately I'd love to address some of your points. The second a Protoss player scouts Mech, they're going to alter their composition to include immortal, pheonix, charge, and HT/archon. Correct. And the second a Protoss scouts a bio ball they're going to get HTs, collosus, archons, etc. There are units that do good against other units regardless of what they are. Why is this a negative for mech and not bio? This one is my FAVORITE: The lack of mobility of mech...this time protoss can go and take map control to delay the slow push from the tanks and get up on a 3rd/4th faster than terran. I challenge that it's easier to have map control with mech than bio. Hellions are faster than marines and marauders by far and have more potential to do eco damage. Early game example: Let’s say I can have 2 medivacs full of units (8 marines, 4 marauders, 2 medivacs – 1,000 minerals, 300 gas, 20 supply). You have the tower on Shattered Temple let’s say and it’s cross positions. The Protoss army is pushing towards the tower. You can load one or both medivacs and do a drop, but if the Protoss army keeps pushing you have nothing to defend at home. So if the Protoss keeps pushing it's probably gg. If he pulls back and decides to defende the drop you might snipe a building or two, but you're not going to do much eco damage and the building or two you manage to get will be replaced pretty quickly. Same resources with a mech build: 3 hellions, 2 siege tanks, siege mode, 4 marines, one bunker (1,000 minerals, 350 gas, 16 supply). My hellions are at the tower, Protoss army pushes. My hellions can flank the army and speed into the expo/main and start killing probes. If the Protoss pulls back he won’t be able to get there in time before I kill a good amount of probes. If he pushes forward I have 2 siege tanks sieged on the high ground and marines in a bunker to keep the army back. I would feel more comfortable with the second option. And as for mobility: why are marines and marauders so mobile? They don’t move faster than hellions. They’re mobile because of medivacs…. The same units that can pick up mech units too. One thing I’ve been playing with in my mech games is a mid-game 3-thor drop into the Protoss main when engaging their army. Even if a Protoss has 10 warpgates when you do this there is not a good unit composition to handle this. If it was 24 marines or 16 marines and 4 marauders being dropped instead that would be a much easier drop to handle. A thor drop of that size would almost definitely require a bulk of the army to pull back and assist. Regardless of how quick that happened the thors would make quick work of some key buildings. Then, while the Protoss army is pulling back to fight off this threat, I move my main army into position and siege up the natural or the third. I also send hellions in to take down workers. This is all theory, of course. Nothing is as easy as it sounds in a post. But my point remains: the events I’m outlining aren’t that crazy. Mid to late game you can easily have 3 thors that you could split off your army and still have a VERY strong main army. Hellions speed can be abused. There are ways to make this work. | ||
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skatbone
United States1005 Posts
I'm not trying to dismiss your concerns. I used to play T and I agree that the late game is tough for T in this MU. However, I think the solution, at least below master's level, lies in worrying less about micro and more about having enough production structures (and producing units WHILE you are fighting) so that your army remaxes at close to the same rate as the toss. After all, warp gates have cooldowns. Just because we warp-in instantaneously does not mean that we don't have to wait (for a production cycle) for the cooldown to end. | ||
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kyllinghest
Norway1607 Posts
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DerFreemind
Germany45 Posts
Here comes the tricky part. I as a terran has to engage perfect. If i dont, i die. Typical szenario in palt league, nobody is scouting very good, both armys move out. I see the army but i am not in a good position, i panic mass emp, miss half of them in the same time 25 charge zealots sprint at my army storm hits my army, feedback on my medivacs. Everything dies. Even if i trade army and i have 20 + barrack, 25 instant warp in zealots a really hard to deal after a big fight. So what i am trying to say, protoss at my level has a much easier time in the fight. Once the protoss gets in higher level it gets very hard for him as well. He has to spread his hts, put godd ff, move his colossi out of harms way and so on and on. As a terran player it is very frustrating feeling, to mirco your heart out, play very active and than in the end 3 storms and 30 zealots with a move kill everything. | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
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Sovern
United States312 Posts
I think that if tanks had an upgrade on the armory that increased their effectiveness vs bio units and thors were more mobile and had no energy on them we'd see more mech play. Right now mech is garbage TvP as mineral only units counter the standard mech comp. not to mention by the time that you push out with a mech army a good toss player will be on 3-4 bases and capable of remaxing on archon/chargelot after a big engagement. Blizzard screwed up by giving BC's and Thors energy as now they require ghosts to emp them and any good terrans know that maxing up on ghosts AND bc's or thors is nearly impossible. | ||
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xsevR
United States324 Posts
The solution seems tough though, because its already more than possible to stop a perfect protoss composition with MMMVG. It seems like any alternate composition would require more micro, not less... | ||
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Sabin010
United States1892 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:15 Norseman wrote: As someone who's been working on mech builds heavily lately I'd love to address some of your points. The second a Protoss player scouts Mech, they're going to alter their composition to include immortal, pheonix, charge, and HT/archon. Correct. And the second a Protoss scouts a bio ball they're going to get HTs, collosus, archons, etc. There are units that do good against other units regardless of what they are. Why is this a negative for mech and not bio? This one is my FAVORITE: The lack of mobility of mech...this time protoss can go and take map control to delay the slow push from the tanks and get up on a 3rd/4th faster than terran. I challenge that it's easier to have map control with mech than bio. Hellions are faster than marines and marauders by far and have more potential to do eco damage. Early game example: Let’s say I can have 2 medivacs full of units (8 marines, 4 marauders, 2 medivacs – 1,000 minerals, 300 gas, 20 supply). You have the tower on Shattered Temple let’s say and it’s cross positions. The Protoss army is pushing towards the tower. You can load one or both medivacs and do drop, but if the Protoss army keeps pushing you have nothing to defend at home. Also, while you might snipe a building or two, you’re not going to do much eco damage. Same resources with a mech build: 3 hellions, 2 siege tanks, siege mode, 4 marines, one bunker (1,000 minerals, 350 gas, 16 supply). My hellions are at the tower, Protoss army pushes. My hellions can flank the army and speed into the expo/main and start killing probes. If the Protoss pulls back he won’t be able to get there in time before I kill a good amount of probes. If he pushes forward I have 2 siege tanks sieged on the high ground and marines in a bunker to keep the army back. I would feel more comfortable with the second option. And as for mobility: why are marines and marauders so mobile? They don’t move faster than hellions. They’re mobile because of medivacs…. The same units that can pick up mech units too. One thing I’ve been playing with in my mech games is a mid-game 3-thor drop into the Protoss main when engaging their army. Even if a Protoss has 10 warpgates when you do this there is not a good unit composition to handle this. If it was 24 marines or 16 marines and 4 marauders being dropped instead that would be a much easier drop to handle. A thor drop of that size would almost definitely require a bulk of the army to pull back and assist. Regardless of how quick that happened the thors would make quick work of some key buildings. Then, while the Protoss army is pulling back to fight off this threat, I move my main army into position and siege up the natural or the third. I also send hellions in to take down workers. This is all theory, of course. Nothing is as easy as it sounds in a post. But my point remains: the events I’m outlining aren’t that crazy. Mid to late game you can easily have 3 thors that you could split off your army and still have a VERY strong main army. Hellions speed can be abused. There are ways to make this work. Correct. And the second a Protoss scouts a bio ball they're going to get HTs, collosus, archons, etc. There are units that do good against other units regardless of what they are. Why is this a negative for mech and not bio? The mobility of the Phoenix is going to give the protoss map control and force turrets. It allows the Protoss enough reconnaissance to know not only what Terran is capable of now but what they're capable of 3 minutes from now. It will force the 3rd and 4th to come out later because of the minerals sunk on turrets or the 3rd cc can't be started until there is a thor to protect the scv building it. The problem with the second analogy is the timing of when you're going to have those two compositions is different. You're not going to 1 rax cc, place a factory, faster than 8 minutes unless you're going for an earlier gas which just delays the cc. Then you still need to get seige. The observer is going to be on that watch tower at 8 minutes, and see what ever you have there. The only way I see this timing work is if the Terran goes for one base and the bunker is placed out in front of the natural to feint a 1 rax cc, but protoss will scout the gas if its taken before the first marine is made. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
I've been struggling a lot lately in TvP.... In my opinion TvP lategame is extremeley due to the simple argument: There is nothing terran can do (apart from the 1-1-1) that requires proper response from Protoss... Terran has no tech switch from/to that makes the Toss' tremble, something like "shit he made X units... i'd better make Y orelse I lose big time..." and because of that Toss' can (and will) play the way the want.. However, I can point 3 switches that Terrans have to respond accordingly or they will just lose the game: - Oh he made Colos... make vikings... if not enough - gg - Oh he made Temps... make ghosts... if not enough - gg - Oh he is pure zea archon.... mass mraines with few marauders... too many marauders - gg .... Then everyone says, drop the Protoss, keep it busy, etc etc.... Think for a second: you have one medivac with 2 marauders and 4 marines... Protoss is caught out of position and say, screw this I'm hitting terran right now! - So you are down 1 medivac in your "head on battle" while he has his full army with equal supply (provided both are the same level, macroing equally).... As in order to beat chargelot colo templar you NEED micro, therefore you are down 1 medivac with 4 marines and 2 marauders that are dropping.... Also, while you micro your slightly weaker main army, you are not microing your small drop which is getting wasted by 5 zealots that were warped a little bit to the side... TLDR: i'm fed up with it, I personally think it's ridiculously hard to beat a toss, though i DO keep trying and since i got empire kas' build it's getting better (fast upgrades, lots of workers, about 10 raxes with ghost support at 12ish minutes!! | ||
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jkos86
50 Posts
I think the pro terrans should be focusing on 1base and 2base timings alot more heavily in tvp and focusing on not letting the toss macro into a 3rd base because once they get that 3rd up and you are players of equal skill toss will gain a huge lead with colloso + ht+ upgrades. I started out as a top masters, almost gm level protoss, good at all match ups but pvt was defintely the easiest matchup, at least for me out of all match ups for all races. The only times i was scared as a toss in pvt was from early aggression and strong well executed timing pushes.If the game went "standard" (bioball) and past 3 base, id be winning against the gm level terrans and i think pvt pushed my ranking up very high. Ive been doing a marine banshee thor 2 base timing with some success although if the push gets delayed hts can be strong against it, and ive tried some of wardens "terran deathball" compositions and they can be suprisingly pretty strong, and the most success ive been having in tvp is in the "non standard" builds but again not very macro orientated builds. Basically 2 base timings, 1/1/1ing reactor hellion openings into marauder pushes. Sometimes i do go bio and when i do i try to copy polt's style alot and go maruder heavy. Focus on continuously trading cost efficiently, lifting units when they ff and dropping outside to punish zealots and use the ffs against him. But the problem i find with going bio vs toss is that its really difficult to kill the toss outright. Toss can get his 3rd up and then the game starts to swing hugely into the tosses favour. Multiprong attacks dont really work if you are players of equal skill, you have to be alot faster than you opponent to make them effective. 2rax openings into 1base medivacs can be pretty nice too in close spawns, better than 1.1.1ing sometimes because the 2rax denies his expo and you can force a 1base vs 1base situation and the race strongest at 1basing is probably terran. Also with these timings it is very important to know how many scvs to pull as they can tip the scales into your favour. Terran really needs to keep the toss guessing and applying constant pressure. | ||
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kranten
Netherlands236 Posts
I usually max out way faster than they do, but they just turtle and I can't reinforce fast enough after the fight. | ||
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Recoil
United States276 Posts
On the aggressive end with tanks you can feel safer to use larger drops in the midgame because you have such a strong defensive backbone with you 4-6 tanks. And when it comes to making pushes having the splash damage to go along with the bio ball could be a great help in battles. | ||
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xTrim
472 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:23 NrGmonk wrote: We've already seen successful and viable late-game terran innovations from some players. They include adding mass nukes, ghost heavy/marine light compositions, and mass bc transitions. Some combination of the 3 of these is the future of late game TvP imo. i wanna see the mass BC transition without it being a gimmick... do u have the vods for that? it really interests me, because once i was playing mech vs toss (season 4 i played all mech) and i started using BCs after suiciding hellions for probe kills, chargelot kills, etc etc so my army was tank thor several ghosts and bc in 4 bases... generaly nobody uses templars for storm vs mech, so not many feedbacks are available as well, and you do have ghosts so, bcs do well enough, and with yamato they snipe void rays | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:32 xsevR wrote: I think the most obvious solution would be a gas heavy unit, like the raven. I find it extremely odd that every tvp I watch has the Terran player floating 2k+ gas by the latter stages of the game. Yeah, I get it, you don't have anything to spend your gas on... so why mine it? Blows my mind that even pro level terran players haven't adjusted their builds for mass over-gas. The solution seems tough though, because its already more than possible to stop a perfect protoss composition with MMMVG. It seems like any alternate composition would require more micro, not less... Why this doesn't happen is because the Terran on most cases loses units constantly and thus has to rebuild . Yeah you have tons of Gas leftover but guess what you don't ? Minerals ..... . Unless you basically sit are allowed to sit on your ass for 5-10 Minutes there's no way to switch into Ravens. | ||
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nOondn
564 Posts
On February 16 2012 01:49 xTrim wrote: i wanna see the mass BC transition without it being a gimmick... do u have the vods for that? it really interests me, because once i was playing mech vs toss (season 4 i played all mech) and i started using BCs after suiciding hellions for probe kills, chargelot kills, etc etc so my army was tank thor several ghosts and bc in 4 bases... generaly nobody uses templars for storm vs mech, so not many feedbacks are available as well, and you do have ghosts so, bcs do well enough, and with yamato they snipe void rays Avilo did mass BC + ghost late game :D | ||
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