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I really have no idea what I would've done, I've never been bullied. I don't think I would've started carrying a knife in the first place though.
What about pepper spray?
Pepper spray might have worked in this situation, but it might not have either. Pepper spray isn't a great defense, especially in close combat against multiple people, and was likely not available to him as it is not sold to children. You have to realise in bully situations, the kid rarely, if ever, gets help from authorities/parents, as they all simply have a "just shrug it off" mentality. It's extremely likely he simply heard multiple threats from their fight and just grabbed a knife from their kitchen counter.
Sorry I responded before you edited in the ultra-internet-tough "Shut up" to the end.
I edited it out because I thought it was too rude before you made this comment, my apologies regardless.
Don't you find it at all ironic that you're on the internet defending a victim of bullying and you're behaving like one yourself?
I don't think you understand the definition of the world "bully" or "bullying".
I'm just more resistant to the idea that it's ok to kill somebody, that's all. I look for alternatives.
That's fine and I am not in favor of killing anyone, but killing in extreme situations as a result of self defense is and should be perfectly acceptable. When other people do not respect boundaries set by laws and ignore those to hurt you, you should not follow them as well.
While other options would be preferable, these are usually not possible in life or death situations and the victims in these situations should not be blamed for what they did to their attackers. Innocent people cannot stop violence, violent people (like the bully) can.
Have you never heard of the edit button btw? You just posted three comments in a row.
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On January 11 2012 09:35 ch72105 wrote:
The odds that the knife and the murder saved the defendant from death or seriously bodily harm, are incredibly slim.
I'm not sure how anyone can think it's worth it to trade the slight possibility of serious bodily harm, for the guaranteed mental/emotional trauma of stabbing somebody to death.
I just think you have to be emotionally disturbed to ever bring yourself to stab somebody to death, unless it was clearly a life or death situation. Schoolyard fight with students surrounding you in a ring isn't a life or death situation.
I hope he's at least ordered/encouraged to seek psychological treatment.
Would any of you feel safe around him?
I take exception with the statement I bolded...You are assuming too much (also it wasn't on the schoolyard, it was on the streets after they got off the bus). Just because you haven't seen some deadly fights, doesn't mean they don't happen. I have seen some nasty shit, for one. There were no adults to jump in to stop the fight, who says the bully would have stopped pounding the kid's head in? Do you know how much damage that does? Just one good, hard punch to the back or side of the head can cause a concussion.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 11 2012 05:47 Chilling5pr33 wrote:Wow This is a hard to judge case. What is TL thinking on this one? Poll: Is this a case of?Self defence. (59) 86% Something else. (8) 12% Murder. (2) 3% 69 total votes Your vote: Is this a case of? (Vote): Self defence.
(Vote): Murder.
(Vote): Something else.
Well this sure puts things into perspective.
Glad most people have common sense.
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Bullying is bad, but the bully didn't deserve to be stabbed. I wouldn't say the kid should be charged with homicide being as he is young and perhaps didn't have the clearest of thinking patterns, but he needs a punishment of some sort. I could justify this or be accepting of the kid getting off if the circumstances were different. If he was forced into a fight, grabbed a stone/brick/(insert general blunt object) during the fight, hit the guy, and the result was death, I'd be ok with that. If he shoved the kid's nose bone into his brain on accident during the fight, I could accept that. The kid took a KNIFE, to SCHOOL, and then stabbed the guy during a fight after school. The kid thought the fight was coming and planned on using deadly force.
Without more knowledge of exactly how the fight proceeded, I couldn't call this justifiable. A regular fist fight between two consenting people isn't even illegal. A fight someone doesn't consent to is a misdemeanor battery. It doesn't even reach felony level until a weapon enters or the injuries procured would require assistance by a hospital.
I only read the OP and the article posted. Anyone who may have posted subsequent articles describing the situation more, I apologize that those were not taken into account.
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On January 10 2012 15:09 Regime wrote:
what bullshit it doesnt matter if u think ur in danger. call the police... u cant carry a knife thats intent theres no way around it
Holy hell, you cannot depend on the police to be there. In the best case, it will take 3-4 minutes for the police to arrive. By that time, you can be dead and seriously injured many many times over. That is, IF you can convince the bully to ALLOW you the time to call the authorities, explain your situation and location. At worst, somebody will show up in 30 minutes.
Let me relate a story to you about "calling the police." I worked for an ambulance company in my undergrad as an EMT. We had direct access to the county dispatch. We requested police because of a threatening situation. Note, we had GPS positioning, dispatch new the EXACT address and location and the incident was already in the computer system. It was literally a single mouse click away from being sent to the closest officer.
The short and end of it was we had to flee the situation and stage down the street. The police showed up THIRTY MINUTES LATER. Have a nice time waiting for someone to save your life while you are being beaten in the face.
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Oh God this is sickening. School authorities should really up measures to prevent this. I am sure that even a basic survey of playgound dynamics during breaktimes will provide the authorities with an idea of whats happening among its students.
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On January 11 2012 10:17 Kangbao wrote:
Bullying is bad, but the bully didn't deserve to be stabbed. I wouldn't say the kid should be charged with homicide being as he is young and perhaps didn't have the clearest of thinking patterns, but he needs a punishment of some sort. I could justify this or be accepting of the kid getting off if the circumstances were different. If he was forced into a fight, grabbed a stone/brick/(insert general blunt object) during the fight, hit the guy, and the result was death, I'd be ok with that. If he shoved the kid's nose bone into his brain on accident during the fight, I could accept that. The kid took a KNIFE, to SCHOOL, and then stabbed the guy during a fight after school. The kid thought the fight was coming and planned on using deadly force.
Without more knowledge of exactly how the fight proceeded, I couldn't call this justifiable. A regular fist fight between two consenting people isn't even illegal. A fight someone doesn't consent to is a misdemeanor battery. It doesn't even reach felony level until a weapon enters or the injuries procured would require assistance by a hospital.
I only read the OP and the article posted. Anyone who may have posted subsequent articles describing the situation more, I apologize that those were not taken into account.
Yah you definitely should read the last 20 or so pages....
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Bullying is bad, but the bully didn't deserve to be stabbed. I wouldn't say the kid should be charged with homicide being as he is young and perhaps didn't have the clearest of thinking patterns, but he needs a punishment of some sort. I could justify this or be accepting of the kid getting off if the circumstances were different. If he was forced into a fight, grabbed a stone/brick/(insert general blunt object) during the fight, hit the guy, and the result was death, I'd be ok with that. If he shoved the kid's nose bone into his brain on accident during the fight, I could accept that. The kid took a KNIFE, to SCHOOL, and then stabbed the guy during a fight after school. The kid thought the fight was coming and planned on using deadly force.
This kid tried his best to walk away from the fight, repeatedly saying he did not want to fight, exiting the bus prior to his stop to try and get away and even trying to walk away but being forced into the fight by the bully's friends. He brought his knife with him in case this would happen for self defence, just because you bring a weapon with you does not mean you "intent to kill", that's ridiculous, especially considering he tried his best to avoid the fight.
Even during the fight, he did not try to fight, however, after taking a punch from the opposing kid that was both a martial arts student and much bigger than him, he took out his knife and started slicing in panic mode, undeterred the bully still fought him and in self defence he sliced around and stabbed the bully once, not stopping until the bully stopped fighting which was when he died.
Self Defense cases are reviewed a lot, if he took out a knife and the bully ran away but he chased him down and stabbed him, this would be a homicide case. He did everything he did purely out of self defense.
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Russian Federation4447 Posts
On January 11 2012 09:35 ch72105 wrote:
The odds that the knife and the murder saved the defendant from death or seriously bodily harm, are incredibly slim.
I'm not sure how anyone can think it's worth it to trade the slight possibility of serious bodily harm, for the guaranteed mental/emotional trauma of stabbing somebody to death.
I just think you have to be emotionally disturbed to ever bring yourself to stab somebody to death, unless it was clearly a life or death situation. Schoolyard fight with students surrounding you in a ring isn't a life or death situation.
I hope he's at least ordered/encouraged to seek psychological treatment.
Would any of you feel safe around him?
Bully me for a year, follow me whereever I go with your friends, punch me in the back of the head, if I'm carrying a knife, you may end up dead.
Guess what, many people under that much adrenaline, duress, and threat of violence would do the same.
I'd feel very safe around the kid, I know if we ever get egged on by a bunch of strangers he won't run and leave me behind.
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Heh. Made me think of Ender's game.
The kid did the smart thing in the situation considering how threatened he felt. He was not going to win a straight up fight with the bully. If an engagement was completely avoidable at least he "won" it.
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On January 11 2012 10:22 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
This kid tried his best to walk away from the fight, repeatedly saying he did not want to fight, exiting the bus prior to his stop to try and get away and even trying to walk away but being forced into the fight by the bully's friends. He brought his knife with him in case this would happen for self defence, just because you bring a weapon with you does not mean you "intent to kill", that's ridiculous, especially considering he tried his best to avoid the fight.
Even during the fight, he did not try to fight, however, after taking a punch from the opposing kid that was both a martial arts student and much bigger than him, he took out his knife and started slicing in panic mode, undeterred the bully still fought him and in self defence he sliced around and stabbed the bully once, not stopping until the bully stopped fighting which was when he died.
Self Defense cases are reviewed a lot, if he took out a knife and the bully ran away but he chased him down and stabbed him, this would be a homicide case. He did everything he did purely out of self defense.
I didn't say he intended to kill. I said he planned on using deadly force. There is a difference. The knife is deadly force. He may have planned on simply brandishing it and saying, "Get back".
I agreed this case has elements of self-defense, but I don't believe there is enough to say his use of force was justified.
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On January 11 2012 10:22 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Show nested quote +Bullying is bad, but the bully didn't deserve to be stabbed. I wouldn't say the kid should be charged with homicide being as he is young and perhaps didn't have the clearest of thinking patterns, but he needs a punishment of some sort. I could justify this or be accepting of the kid getting off if the circumstances were different. If he was forced into a fight, grabbed a stone/brick/(insert general blunt object) during the fight, hit the guy, and the result was death, I'd be ok with that. If he shoved the kid's nose bone into his brain on accident during the fight, I could accept that. The kid took a KNIFE, to SCHOOL, and then stabbed the guy during a fight after school. The kid thought the fight was coming and planned on using deadly force. This kid tried his best to walk away from the fight, repeatedly saying he did not want to fight, exiting the bus prior to his stop to try and get away and even trying to walk away but being forced into the fight by the bully's friends. He brought his knife with him in case this would happen for self defence, just because you bring a weapon with you does not mean you "intent to kill", that's ridiculous, especially considering he tried his best to avoid the fight. Even during the fight, he did not try to fight, however, after taking a punch from the opposing kid that was both a martial arts student and much bigger than him, he took out his knife and started slicing in panic mode, undeterred the bully still fought him and in self defence he sliced around and stabbed the bully once, not stopping until the bully stopped fighting which was when he died. Self Defense cases are reviewed a lot, if he took out a knife and the bully ran away but he chased him down and stabbed him, this would be a homicide case. He did everything he did purely out of self defense.
the reports i read said that he stabbed the bully 12 times in the chest and abdomen - 2 of which were fatal wounds (one to the heart)... and the bully was a smart kid so i very much doubt he would have continued to fight after getting stabbed or even if he'd seen the knife... maybe you have evidence to the contrary?
spitwads, cream filled paper balls and a punch to the back of the head should not be punishable by death.
what's next? make it legal to kill people who walk too slowly on the pavement? i find those people more obnoxious than school bully.
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imo, if he had found a brick/crowbar and killed the bully it would be self defence. carrying aorund a knife screams premeditated murder. not a lawyer by a longshot , but if my brother/kid ever killed a bully like that i would lock him up myself.
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On January 11 2012 10:33 Kangbao wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 10:22 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
This kid tried his best to walk away from the fight, repeatedly saying he did not want to fight, exiting the bus prior to his stop to try and get away and even trying to walk away but being forced into the fight by the bully's friends. He brought his knife with him in case this would happen for self defence, just because you bring a weapon with you does not mean you "intent to kill", that's ridiculous, especially considering he tried his best to avoid the fight.
Even during the fight, he did not try to fight, however, after taking a punch from the opposing kid that was both a martial arts student and much bigger than him, he took out his knife and started slicing in panic mode, undeterred the bully still fought him and in self defence he sliced around and stabbed the bully once, not stopping until the bully stopped fighting which was when he died.
Self Defense cases are reviewed a lot, if he took out a knife and the bully ran away but he chased him down and stabbed him, this would be a homicide case. He did everything he did purely out of self defense. I didn't say he intended to kill. I said he planned on using deadly force. There is a difference. The knife is deadly force. He may have planned on simply brandishing it and saying, "Get back". I agreed this case has elements of self-defense, but I don't believe there is enough to say his use of force was justified.
"I didn't say he intended to kill. I said he planned on using deadly force."
That is what you said. It is the biggest contradiction I have seen in this thread.
That aside, Simply brandishing a knife is not deadly force. It is brandishing a knife. You may be confused. Nevertheless, as I explained before, I think the kid simply intended to show the knife and get the kid to back off, and the bully thought he was invincible and decided to fight anyways. As they say, if you play with fire, you're going to get burned, and if you fight a kid with a knife, you're gonna get stabbed, dumbass.
On January 11 2012 10:39 brokor wrote:
imo, if he had found a brick/crowbar and killed the bully it would be self defence. carrying aorund a knife screams premeditated murder. not a lawyer by a longshot , but if my brother/kid ever killed a bully like that i would lock him up myself.
How does carrying a knife for protection scream premeditated murder? Just because I carry a concealed firearm doesn't mean I go out every day intending to blast someone. I have it because the world is dangerous and I might need it. The kid knew he might need it to scare off his attacker, but I don't think he thought that his attacker would still try to fight him after he pulled the knife out.
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On January 11 2012 10:39 brokor wrote:
imo, if he had found a brick/crowbar and killed the bully it would be self defence. carrying aorund a knife screams premeditated murder. not a lawyer by a longshot , but if my brother/kid ever killed a bully like that i would lock him up myself.
Do you actually know what premeditated murder means?
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spitwads, cream filled paper balls and a punch to the back of the head should not be punishable by death.
If you think that's what all bullying is you are the definition of ignorant and this is the exact attitude that leads authorities to offer no help whatsoever to bully victims. Bullying can be taken to extreme levels, and can mentally scar people for life. People like you that think bullying cannot be a big deal that tell kids to just "shrug it off" when they come begging for help and help them in no way, shape or form are what causes this to begin with. It allowed to bullying to get to such a level that the kid would actually feel endangered for his physical health, it is what drives bully victims to commit suicide and it is what caused this bully to die.
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On January 11 2012 10:38 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 10:22 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:Bullying is bad, but the bully didn't deserve to be stabbed. I wouldn't say the kid should be charged with homicide being as he is young and perhaps didn't have the clearest of thinking patterns, but he needs a punishment of some sort. I could justify this or be accepting of the kid getting off if the circumstances were different. If he was forced into a fight, grabbed a stone/brick/(insert general blunt object) during the fight, hit the guy, and the result was death, I'd be ok with that. If he shoved the kid's nose bone into his brain on accident during the fight, I could accept that. The kid took a KNIFE, to SCHOOL, and then stabbed the guy during a fight after school. The kid thought the fight was coming and planned on using deadly force. This kid tried his best to walk away from the fight, repeatedly saying he did not want to fight, exiting the bus prior to his stop to try and get away and even trying to walk away but being forced into the fight by the bully's friends. He brought his knife with him in case this would happen for self defence, just because you bring a weapon with you does not mean you "intent to kill", that's ridiculous, especially considering he tried his best to avoid the fight. Even during the fight, he did not try to fight, however, after taking a punch from the opposing kid that was both a martial arts student and much bigger than him, he took out his knife and started slicing in panic mode, undeterred the bully still fought him and in self defence he sliced around and stabbed the bully once, not stopping until the bully stopped fighting which was when he died. Self Defense cases are reviewed a lot, if he took out a knife and the bully ran away but he chased him down and stabbed him, this would be a homicide case. He did everything he did purely out of self defense. the reports i read said that he stabbed the bully 12 times in the chest and abdomen - 2 of which were fatal wounds (one to the heart)... and the bully was a smart kid so i very much doubt he would have continued to fight after getting stabbed or even if he'd seen the knife... maybe you have evidence to the contrary? spitwads, cream filled paper balls and a punch to the back of the head should not be punishable by death. what's next? make it legal to kill people who walk too slowly on the pavement? i find those people more obnoxious than school bully.
Uhh, no the bully was not a smart kid obviously...And he did continue to fight the kid even after he got stabbed the first time, his friends were chanting "hit him harder" and all that bullshit that retard kids do. The bully and his friends were much bigger and more muscular than the bully victim. Also, the bullies followed him to HIS bus stop (they live at a different bus stop), even after the bully told the kid to get off at their stop but he didn't listen. He tried to avoid the fight the whole time
He only pulled out the knife when he started feeling light headed (from the punches to the head...)..
Here is my source: http://media.naplesnews.com/media/static/20111230150108.pdf
Also, if you are in college/university...Take a psychology course..Perhaps you will learn just what kind of effects bullying can have on the victim (and the person doing the bullying to an extent). Since you seem to think it is laughable by saying "slow walkers" are more obnoxious than bullies.
This kid is going to have serious psychological issues (if he doesn't already) if he doesn't get counseling for two main reasons. One: he was bullied for over a year; Two: he killed a person. The second one is severely traumatizing in of itself.
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Hell, it's about time.
This kid is a hero. He should be rewarded.
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Definitely bullshit, he should of told someone about the bullying like the cops. Carrying around a knife is illegal and they're both kids nobody should have gotten killed.
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On January 11 2012 10:40 Golbat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 10:33 Kangbao wrote:On January 11 2012 10:22 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
This kid tried his best to walk away from the fight, repeatedly saying he did not want to fight, exiting the bus prior to his stop to try and get away and even trying to walk away but being forced into the fight by the bully's friends. He brought his knife with him in case this would happen for self defence, just because you bring a weapon with you does not mean you "intent to kill", that's ridiculous, especially considering he tried his best to avoid the fight.
Even during the fight, he did not try to fight, however, after taking a punch from the opposing kid that was both a martial arts student and much bigger than him, he took out his knife and started slicing in panic mode, undeterred the bully still fought him and in self defence he sliced around and stabbed the bully once, not stopping until the bully stopped fighting which was when he died.
Self Defense cases are reviewed a lot, if he took out a knife and the bully ran away but he chased him down and stabbed him, this would be a homicide case. He did everything he did purely out of self defense. I didn't say he intended to kill. I said he planned on using deadly force. There is a difference. The knife is deadly force. He may have planned on simply brandishing it and saying, "Get back". I agreed this case has elements of self-defense, but I don't believe there is enough to say his use of force was justified. "I didn't say he intended to kill. I said he planned on using deadly force." That is what you said. It is the biggest contradiction I have seen in this thread. That aside, Simply brandishing a knife is not deadly force. It is brandishing a knife. You may be confused. Nevertheless, as I explained before, I think the kid simply intended to show the knife and get the kid to back off, and the bully thought he was invincible and decided to fight anyways. As they say, if you play with fire, you're going to get burned, and if you fight a kid with a knife, you're gonna get stabbed, dumbass. Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 10:39 brokor wrote:
imo, if he had found a brick/crowbar and killed the bully it would be self defence. carrying aorund a knife screams premeditated murder. not a lawyer by a longshot , but if my brother/kid ever killed a bully like that i would lock him up myself. How does carrying a knife for protection scream premeditated murder? Just because I carry a concealed firearm doesn't mean I go out every day intending to blast someone. I have it because the world is dangerous and I might need it. The kid knew he might need it to scare off his attacker, but I don't think he thought that his attacker would still try to fight him after he pulled the knife out.
Nowhere did I say "the kid intended to kill the bully". If you interpret "using deadly force" as "intending to kill" you're simply ignorant of the law. Intending to kill and using deadly force are not the same thing under the law. Deadly force is an amount of force that is likely to cause either serious bodily injury or death to another person. A knife is deadly force. He may not have planned on killing anyone.
Even if he intended to brandish the knife and have them back off, there was always the possibility that the guy didn't back off, and he planned on then using it. The bully was an idiot for picking on the kid in the first place, and even more so when he decided to continue fighting. That doesn't justify him being killed.
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