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On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote:
Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
how about a warning? maybe make it publicly known and that if it happens in the future you can have your spot in GSL revoked.
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On December 15 2011 04:32 DystopiaX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:26 Peleus wrote:
God I can't believe how retarded some TL users are being about this.
a) Naniwa clearly deliberately threw the game. Right or wrong aside can we all at least agree on that? Sending 7 probes to your base is not going to win, I know it, you know it, a silver leaguer knows it. Compounded with looking bored, hand on chin, there shouldn't even be questions about whether he threw the game or not. Therefore discussions along the lines of 'bad stratergies can get you banned from GSL' are fairly stupid. Yes there is a level of subjectivity, yes we should always be able to agree Naniwa wasn't using a bad stratergy, he was throwing the game.
b) Discussions relating to the contractual giving of Naniwa a spot etc are also pretty clear. Yes he was awarded a spot, yes he was going to be going. He was specifically removed due to the rule relating to offending the audience / BM. Therefore due to violating the rules he has been removed. There is no 'they never gave him the spot he contractually must have', but rather it was given and lost due to rule violation.
c) The quote from Mr Chae is explaining the motivation behind the decision, but it seems some people are having trouble understanding it. GOM defines a pro gamer as someone who wants to win no matter what is on the line in a competition like this on the world stage. They are also there to entertain the crowd. There is more to a progamer than simply their skill level. As a result the progamer Naniwa was invited, but because of his BM and clear lack of adherence to the values that define a gamer the person behind the keyboard isn't welcome and has been removed under the previously mentioned rules. As far as they are concerned 'Naniwa' the pro gamer doesn't exist.
TL;DR - Don't be a dick and realise at this level there is more to progaming than simply skill level, but entertaining and maintaining a minimum ethical standard. If you can't do that than you're not going to be welcome in some competitions. Behind GOM 100%. Only with a) that may be true, but there's no rule judging the validity of a strategy, no matter how stupid. b) is false, read the OP. No rule specifically mentioned. c) is true, except for the rules part, and there's nothing in there that prohibits Naniwa's attitude. His ban would've been fine by me, had there actually been a rule in place to stop what Naniwa did. There wasn't.
a) there is, see point 3 of this thread, http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=294713
b) there was, see thread above
c) see above
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Vatican City State582 Posts
On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote:
i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
I don't even like Naniwa, but I agree 100%.
I watched the entire series and I have to say, I was more amused by the probe rush than anything.
(read: The match had zero meaning, and even Tastosis thought they would just skip the match, because both of them were already eliminated, and it would not affect Blizzard Cup in the slightest manner.)
Offended so much that you have to harshly penalize a player? Give a warning and that'd be enough.
Seriously, GOM just lowered itself to Nani's level.
LoL, it feels like some childish eye for an eye bs - you hurt my feelings; therefore, I will bend the rules to hurt you too.
butthurt much?
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On December 15 2011 04:51 Hubris wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:47 careohx wrote:
Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM. It means you try in your games and take on the responsibility of representing your team/sport/fans/sponsors by being a gamer and entertainer first, selfish money grubbing mentality second.
lol. this is just a way of taking advantage of people. "don't worry so much about the money. we'll throw you out if you do." very easy to take advantage of brilliant 17-year-old korean kids that way, which is what esports loves to do.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
It happens unfortunately 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asashōryū_Akinori#Suspension
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GomTV giveth and GomTV taketh away.
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I dont speak Korean or have access to his contract but in the end there should not have to be a rule for this sort of thing. Its so common sense that you dont sabotage content for sponsors and fans.
All parties knew what was expected of them. Naniwa would have to be REALLY dense to think this was acceptable but he let his emotions get the best of him and messed up. The end result is that naniwa essentially stole one game worth of content from GOM and thus GOM failed to deliver on their promise to consumers.
None of these realities require input from anybody, they are verifiable facts. As such, im hard pressed to think of a situation where I can justify not punishing him at all and only the severity is in question.
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On December 15 2011 04:40 o[twist] wrote:
i don't think anybody's mentioned this, but the rule that was used to disqualify naniwa (of course, this is subject to translation issues) was "shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviors." do we have any reason to think that this would refer to in-game actions rather than, say, chat or ceremonies? has this rule ever been applied before and would naniwa have had any reason to think that it would have applied to this action? these are all things you need to take into consideration when you ask whether this is fair to naniwa and to mlg.
in my eyes this is clearly an arbitrary and capricious use of the rule and it's frankly unconscionable to treat players like this. fuck naniwa for throwing a game, sure, but i have serious doubts about it being against that rule, at least as stated in english.
Didn't say 'during the game' as well? Anyway, that thread was closed so I'm not sure if it was translated/cited correctly but yes I do see issues with how its worded and defined if that is in fact the case.
No, it has never been applied before. That's why its new and this presents many problems especially when you take into account the audiences reception.
I even have problems with the players calling the shots on what's offensive and what isn't.
A few examples:
- abusive strategies
- /dance
- manner mule
- drawing/writing messages with buildings to your fans
- etc.
The question is where do you draw the line.
Rules have to be concrete. This new rule if it is as described isn't.
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He has had this coming for a year. His behavior hasn't gotten any better, despite many claims to the contrary. Every other tournament he's pulling another stunt like this.
Do you all remember the picture of sundance sitting in the crowd at MLG, looking up to naniwa badmouthing his tournament in chat on stage? Do you all remember the interview sundance gave on the future of MLG? The drunken tweets revealing tidbits to the people who care because HE CARES? And this spoiled twerp naniwa walks away at his tournament after insulting it with second place. Well, that's a bigger injustice than GOM is doing to naniwa right now anyway. Throwing a game in an invitational cup, something so big that only 10 players worldwide are invited, is a giant insult to the organisation.
Naniwa has racked up a huge list of tournament bans over the years, including plenty of clan kicks. He has not changed, shows unwillingness to change, and even now, his attitude is that of someone either thinking he can still play along by nodding his head and pretending he's listening, or he's looking to be justified through the audience.
No, Naniwa. I hope you never play another game again, you spoiled brat.
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That makes no sense, I don't get what they're trying to say.
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On December 15 2011 04:53 msl wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote:
Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules. So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all.
What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
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On December 15 2011 03:37 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:34 sinistr wrote:On December 15 2011 03:20 CryingPoo wrote:
I also have changed the post that I made and made a referral to your thread. Once again I am deeply sorry. This is a gross error that cannot be remedied by a simple apology. Instances like this and the misjudgements made about EG in the Providence writeup by Heyoka underscore the significant detriment to TL caused by poor reporting/journalism. Without enforcing the commentary before it is published, or prefacing controversial posts with "These statements are unvalidated and unconfirmed", all information that comes out of TL can only be taken as a rumor and possibly, entirely untrue. Posters with a lack of judgement and discretion, like CryingPoo and heyoka only serve to bring down the credibility of TL as a reputable source of information for Starcraft 2. Because writing an opinion piece about EG's pro house, even if its an unpopular opinion, and someone posting blatantly wrong information is the same thing.
That wasn't an opinion piece about the EG pro house anyways, he brought that shit into a tournament summary.
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On December 15 2011 04:52 PHILtheTANK wrote:
I think that Mr. Chae actually needs to do some explaining here. Im sorry to say it, but the notion that GSL is putting out there that they WERE GOING to give Naniwa a code S seed, but the decided not to is just a farce. Naniwa earned the seed and then it was taken from him. This wasn't an "invite" until it was time to be taken away. I researched all of the threads that came BEFORE MLG Providence, and nowhere is it stated that the mlg-gsl league exchange program would not be in effect for that tournament, all it states is that there would be "2 foreigner players" in the seeds, one of which was clearly expected to be from MLG.
Naniwa earned the seed and GSL took it from him because(of course he made a dumb decision too) they decided to force him to play a meaningless game, when he was probably at his worst state mentally.
Yes! so true.
Basically, up until this whole debacle it was more or less universally agreed on that 2 players would recieve 2 Code S spots, not two POSSIBLE code s spots, but then this whole thing happened and all of a sudden those two spots turned into "possible invites"
That's ridiculous
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just saw this. i am glad GomTV did what it did or else it cannot face Korean Netizens. Also, it sets a good precedent that it could take away code s spots due to throwing away games. To me, Naniwa deserves what he got, if Coca got completely demoted for just throwing away a match to Byun. I guess to make up to foreigners, it invited 2 more foreigners haha.
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On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote:If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well. Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial. And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level. Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote:
Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum. In this case you have to face the results. Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself. No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago. When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play?
Nestea.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 Namkung wrote:
저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line :
We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear.
From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
I guess this should be added to the OP as well?
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On December 15 2011 04:53 OrangeSoda wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote:
Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules. how about a warning? maybe make it publicly known and that if it happens in the future you can have your spot in GSL revoked.
True, maybe a warning would have been better. But looking at the player in questions past "incidents", maybe they felt a warning wouldn't be adequate?
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On December 15 2011 04:56 ackbar wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:53 Tyrant0 wrote:If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well. Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial. And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level. On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote:
Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum. In this case you have to face the results. Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself. No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago. When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game. Know who else lost all previous games and had no hope of qualifying, yet showed up to play? Nestea.
Ok, so they're different people that have different feelings thus act differently.
Whats your point here exactly ackbar?
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This really makes me sad to see that GSL is taking such a formal action, considering the informal nature of Naniwa's 7 probe rush...
Had Naniwa broken any rules, or contract signing, I would feel obligated to agree with Gom's decision, but as seeing lack of proof in any PR release from either side. It's painfully obvious that there is no formal rule breaking on Naniwa's side, otherwise we'd see part of contracts outlined at this point.
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On December 15 2011 04:55 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:53 msl wrote:On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote:
Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules. So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic. His Code S spot was never guaranteed, it was an invite seed. For his attitude they changed their mind about inviting him, that's all. What should be the punishment? As obviously GOM feel he acted immaturely and unprofessional. A fine is not really an option for this kind of misconduct.
http://www.gomtv.net/2011gslsponsors3/news/65291
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EPT
