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On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway.
name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
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저희가 시드를 줬던것은 퀀틱 게이밍의 프로토스 프로게이머 나니와 선수였지 스웨덴에서 게임을 잘하는 청년 요한 루세시는 아니였습니다.
the translation should be as follows for this line :
We gave the seed to the Quantic Gaming's Protoss Player and NOT to the immature Swedish Player Johan Lucchesi who is good at the game.
You completely ignored the word 청년 in your translation which is the most important part in that statement. or what makes it very clear.
From this, Mr.Chae is saying that Naniwa is very immature for what he did. and ultimately the person he gave the Code S seed to was simply a PRO PLAYER FROM QUANTIC GAMING and not the immature person that it turned out to be.
edit : the word 청년 in Korean means a teenager. and in this kind of context, the word can be used to describe the characteristics / attributes associated with a teenager . being immature
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Respect and sportsmanship are extremely important in Korean culture and with Naniwa throwing a game like that is like slapping GOM in the face. You have to understand that this isn't a foreign event. GOM is the one that initially opened spots for foreign players to participate in GSL and other similar events in the first place. The punishment can be seen as harsh, but it was necessary so incidents like this won't happen again. GOM has all the rights to decide what is best for their tournaments.
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On December 15 2011 04:32 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:29 hypercube wrote:On December 15 2011 04:24 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 04:19 hypercube wrote:On December 15 2011 04:14 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 04:13 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:04 Trsjnica wrote:
This line of argument seems unreasonable to me. It is not that GOM is not honoring that promise, it is that Naniwa lost his spot due to outside actions.
I don't think you can reasonably argue that players should not be able to lose spots due to other actions. For example, if a player won MLG, but during the month before GSL, was caught cheating and fixing games for profit in NASL, Dreamhack, ladder, AND IEM-- they would surely lose their GSL Code S spot, and no one would complain.
Thus, this established that was all agree that at least *some actions* are sufficient to cause a player to lose a Code S spot, and that this is NOT an example of GOM not honoring their promise.
Rather, the argument here is really over whether Naniwa's actions were sufficient to justify the punishment that was given, and NOT whether GSL is honoring their promise re: MLG.
cheating and fixing games is breaking the law, this wasn't. i'm not an sc2 person but this is absolutely unfair. nfl teams "suck for luck." hell at the bnp paribas masters tennis tournament alex bogomolov jr. said "i don't want to be here" and almost retired without even having been injured. these sorts of things can result in some kind of fine or citation but never in somebody just saying "okay, we don't want you in the tournament anymore, even though you qualified under our rules, so we will simply replace you." He did not qualified contractually, it was their decision to decide that his conduct was not worthy of a PRIVILEGE spot. IT'S NOT A PRIVILEGE. Unless you clarify in advance that you can withdraw it any point without justification it's not a privilege. It can be an invitation, a promise but not a privilege. A tournament has the right to deny anyone they deem unworthy. GOM has that rule written so they have the right to remove it. They also have complete justification in doing it, not like Naniwa was acting like an angel. They probably have a legal right. They independently may or may not have a moral right. But there's always a nagging feeling that they are being somewhat arbitrary and that their invitations might be revoked unexpectedly. Actually, I might even go back on what I said before. Maybe their invitation IS a privilege. Whether that's a good thing for GOM or not is another question. I mean unless one conducts himself completely professionally but suffered the same fate as Naniwa, then we can prosecute GOM. It wasnt an arbitrary decision by any means.
For me it's not about prosecution. They are acting in their business interest and it's not like they are destroying rain-forests or displacing natives to get to their oil 
It wasn't an arbitrary decision in the sense that few people agreed with how Naniwa acted. It WAS arbitrary in the sense that there was no clear provision against it and the severity of the decision surprised many people. GOM saying that they have a fuzzy code of conduct and their invitation depends on players following it just increases the uncertainty.
I mean, ok, Naniwa clearly acted outside this code. But it's not like they used this opportunity to clarify exactly what they expect and what the consequences are. Next time they try to invite a foreigner there's a good chance they'll ask for a contract.
I kind of agree with o[twist] that there's an underlying issue of using cultural values for power (and eventually for money, although there's not much of that as of yet). It happens in Sumo wrestling, baduk (go) and I believe in K-Pop too. It's not just an "asian" thing, it's happened in Women's Gymnastics in the US too and I'm sure many other sports. It certainly happened in Broodwar. In the end the responsibility lies with the players and their parent to decide if the sacrifices are worth it or not, or if there's any point in trying to fight against the system.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
Name a sport where you're allowed to flagrantly throw games? You're not allowed to throw games but it's usually hard to prove, but it's obvious in this case.
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Switzerland2892 Posts
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I would love to hear an official statement from Quantic Gaming and NaNiwa. There are too many different translations of that statement.
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I always root for naniwa but he really needs to stop shitting on where he eats.
its just tragic because he has expressed his desire to stay in korea for long term and he gets his seed and this happens =_=
I hope he learns from this and not give up on his korean throne cuz this guy probably has the best chance out of all foreigners imo.
MORE IMPORTANTLY NANIWA PLEASE APOLOGIZE AND NOT FLAME MORE ABOUT THIS ISSUE.
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On December 15 2011 04:42 m0ck wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:35 Teriyaki-Boy wrote:
I don't understand why, people are defending him for acting in such a way and trying to justified the game mean nothing....The game does mean something to the viewers and the fans of Naniwa and Nestea. People need to understand this is a business of entertainment and GOM wanna put out great content for their viewers and E-Sport to grow. I have to agree with the punishment, only caring for your own personal feeling and disregard your jobs is truly unprofessional.
To some viewers. To others, such as myself, it's a meaningless game, a consequence of a bad tournament format, that is being played out as show for the sake of the show. You're asking the players to fake it. That is almost impossible, as can be seen in how Hero didn't play to win in his match against DRG on monday, and almost always results in lackluster games, if not in trouble as we've seen here. It means you have to set a rather arbitrary rule for how much of an effort you're supposed to make. I wan't to see meaningful competition, matches that matter, not something akin to a wrestling match.
This...
I just dont understand that people would be satisfied if he did a half assed 4 gate...
He knew he was out and oculdnt get exited over his last match.. And instead of accepting this and moving on people expect him to pretend playing for real just they can watch 2 demotivated pros pretending?
Are people really this superficial? This is sad
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Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
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Sigh, after reading all previous threads and reddit posts, it seems they are punishing Nani and taking away his seed, it was already given to him, unlike how the other threads stated. If i was Idra or Sen I would feel reluctant to accept such a spot in GSL.
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On December 15 2011 04:47 careohx wrote:
Oh and the rule "you need to act as a gamer". What defines a gamer? Based on this rule they can remove anyone for whatever reason. We cant have things like this and talk about PROFESSIONALISM.
It means you try in your games and take on the responsibility of representing your team/sport/fans/sponsors by being a gamer and entertainer first, selfish money grubbing mentality second.
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On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule
He's not being thrown out of the sport, he's just not being given a Code S slot. If he earned the slot by qualifying (as every other Code S player does), that's one thing.
If he is being gifted a slot by GOM because they want to include more foreigners in their tournament, then they have the right to be selective about who they choose to invite.
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On December 15 2011 04:44 baoluvboa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:42 gwixter wrote:On December 15 2011 04:38 baoluvboa wrote:On December 15 2011 04:37 gwixter wrote:On December 15 2011 04:34 bananafone wrote:
GOM is running an entertainment company that gets money from people seeing interesting and entertaining games (coincidentally played by the worlds best players). NaNiwa is sitting in a house practicing for 12 hours daily. He does this because organizations like GOM arrange tournaments with real prize money and lots of viewers so the sport as a whole can get exposure. This exposure is in various ways translated into cash witch is what this is really all about. GOM has certain standards for the quality of entertainment they present to the viewers. Obviously they are going to protect their own product furiously, if they didn't they would not be where they are today. Dronerushing is obviously not part of the GOM-experience and as such GOM has to do something to guarantee that it won't be part of their prime product(code s).
Whether NaNiwa or anyone else likes it or not he is not just a pro-gamer he is also an entertainer. Having a bad day and giving it your bare minimum is alright. Not trying at all is a completely different matter. NaNiwa is where he is thanks to people like the ones running GOM. Ignoring that work by not bothering to spend less than 10 minutes to create a reasonably interesting game for people to watch is unprofessional. Not as an SC2pro(because his work was done for that day), but as an entertainer. if they crave so much for broadcasted games, why they skip meaningless matches in Up&Down groups? shouldn't they have skipped this one also then? Difference between the most prestigious tourney of the year and a highly anticipated grudge match than UP and DOWN groups. People were extremely disappointed at the possibility that GOM skipped the match in the LR threads. I'm sure this sentiment rang true for most viewers. yeah, right ... so if naniwa had 4gated, everyone would have been happy .... really cool .... Ya because 4 gate actually has a possibility in winning and shows that he at least gives a shit to play a real match. but he didn't give a shit to play meanigless match! ... he actually DO give a shit to play REAL matches ... like those which he was supposed to play in Code S
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I think that Mr. Chae actually needs to do some explaining here. Im sorry to say it, but the notion that GSL is putting out there that they WERE GOING to give Naniwa a code S seed, but the decided not to is just a farce. Naniwa earned the seed and then it was taken from him. This wasn't an "invite" until it was time to be taken away. I researched all of the threads that came BEFORE MLG Providence, and nowhere is it stated that the mlg-gsl league exchange program would not be in effect for that tournament, all it states is that there would be "2 foreigner players" in the seeds, one of which was clearly expected to be from MLG.
Naniwa earned the seed and GSL took it from him because(of course he made a dumb decision too) they decided to force him to play a meaningless game, when he was probably at his worst state mentally.
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So many people mention Naniwa earning the spot and so on and I find it very silly. Whether Naniwa won the spot or not, he is paying for his misdeed.(some might argue it did not bother them but pretty clear one too many group is upset or else we'd never have numbers of threads on this topic)
There were also many people saying naniwa has every right to do whatever he wishes or let Naniwa be Naniwa kinda arguement. However, as a pro (even before being a pro, as a grown-up), he ought to know that an action will be followed by consequences and he should take full responsibility for his actions.)
In short, I do believe this is a little harsh, but Naniwa's paying for his action and I respect Gom's decision to strip (or whatever it is) him of the spot
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On December 15 2011 04:50 diophan wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 04:48 o[twist] wrote:On December 15 2011 04:46 Hubris wrote:
I've yet to hear a clear and coherent argument stating why Gom is wrong removing a player that disrespected them from their tourny. I think some here need to tone down the fanboy rage/national pride and just accept that he broke cultural norms for a serious sport and got reprimanded for it. It's really that simple. If he's code S worthy he'll do well in up/downs and it wont matter anyway. name another sport where you can be thrown out for "breaking cultural norms" with no specific rule Name a sport where you're allowed to flagrantly throw games? You're not allowed to throw games but it's usually hard to prove, but it's obvious in this case.
in any sport where you're not allowed to throw games, it's because there's a rule against it, which there wasn't here. in other words, naniwa is being treated as though he's broken a rule when he hasn't.
not to mention there are other sports where games are thrown. chessplayers throw games or arrange draws all the time. nfl teams "suck for luck." tennis players withdraw after a slight hint of injury because they don't think the tournament they're in matters as much as the next one. etc.
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On December 15 2011 04:51 Jono7272 wrote:
Nicely said Mr. Chae. Definitely agree that's how a pro gamer should act.
But going from that to denying him the Code S spot is quite harsh. Then again, what other option was there, a fine was not an option seeing as Naniwa didn't break any rules.
So if you don't break a a rule, you can't be issued a small punishment, but a harsh one is OK? I do not follow that logic.
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On December 15 2011 03:56 CryingPoo wrote:Show nested quote +Oh ahahahha this is officially hilarious
Can't believe so many posts wasted haahahahaha Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:53 diophan wrote:
I'm very happy that GOM's response was infinitely more measured than what was claimed. Also whoever said he was called a money grubbing hunter or whatever should be ashamed for tarnishing GOM's reputation. Once again I am deeply sorry about posting something from non-credible source.. I am trying to communicate with Mr.CHAE also to apologize in person.. I love e-sports and my aim was sole to create a faster communication line between two communities which I have failed at. I am truly sorry.
That's the problem with doing some sort of reporting. If the source is wrong, it doesn't come back on them, it comes back on the person giving the information from the source. It's the one thing I have kept in my mind from my first journalism class when it comes to reporting; If your source is wrong, run and hide.
Good intentions bro, just bad judgement, it happens.
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If they tossed an invite to Naniwa at random to promote more foreigners, I'd be okay with it. But Naniwa tore through MLG to get it. I definitely don't approve of GOMTV pulling the rug from beneath any pro gamer they don't deem fit and professional enough when it's entirely within THEIR discretion; Naniwa didn't break any rules. It also feels like it's shitting on the integrity of the MLG/GSL partnership as well.
Mr. Chae's definition of a pro gamer is pretty shady, and completely BS. He has an incentive to say they're to generate entertainment which ultimately leads to more viewers/money. I'm not saying he's a mega corporation, and it's entirely reasonable as a business to have financial incentives in mind. Destiny said it best; Would ANYONE play for free, exclusively for the benefit of a league making money off of it. Naniwa didn't fake throwing the game, therefore he's completely dishonorable. There is more I could say but it's extremely controversial.
And they aren't even mentioning (based purely on reading this thread) any reassurance that they'll remove inconsequential matches from any and all future formats. Not even because of what happened with Naniwa, or the prospect of players not giving a fuck and throwing it in many less obvious kinds of ways for the fans. But because it doesn't make sense to basically put all your eggs into the player's basket, and hope they play their hardest for the best possible games; when you KNOW you could simply remove the entire possibility out of the equation and make ALL games the highest possible level.
On December 15 2011 03:27 Aunvilgod wrote:Show nested quote +On December 15 2011 03:13 Jhax[IRE] wrote:
Can't believe more than 1 thread has been made about this whole Naniwa thing. He didn't wanna play the game but he was forced to and as a result he just threw it to get it over with, That's what 99% of human beings do when they are forced to do something they really don't want to do, the bare minimum. In this case you have to face the results. Also, this 99% thing is BS. If I´d believe 99% of the worlds population are arrogant, immature, disrespectful kids I would go kill myself.
No it's not. Naniwa worked his ass off practicing for these matches, barely lost, all of them heart breaking and mind numbingly close, and in the end he's told to play Nestea for absolutely no reason; at the very least FAKE he's putting a minimal amount of effort when he's still crushed from being eliminated 30 minutes ago.
When the fuck are the other 99% ever put in that situation, and who the fuck of the 99% put a fraction of the dedication Naniwa does into this game.
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EPT
