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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 22:59 bkrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:54 Excomm wrote:
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was the tournament format."
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was GOM."
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was the build he used."
"It wasn't Naniwa, he didn't break any rules."
"It's not just Naniwa, everyone else does the same thing."
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their actions, ever?
This generation is in for a shock when they get fired from their job for misconduct or poor performance and they complain, "but we didn't break any rules!"
If any other player had done the same thing, they would have gotten the same punishment (possibly worse for a player on a Korean team) so there is no discrimination here. You can argue the penalty is too harsh, but stop blaming everyone else for this decision. Naniwa has no one to blame but himself. The player is free to be punished by his team. It has nothing to do with GOM since he has not broken any of their rules. The rule they are applying is ridiculous and is being inconsistently applied across the board. GOM doesn't get to decide the standard of games that players put out; Don't talk down to "this generation" because it makes you sound like a pompous ass.
I can agree that the punishment should be worked out by the team and the host of the tournament. I can't argue about inconsistency because there are so few times that they have enacted this rule.
You're right, but GOM does get to decide who plays in their tournament based on past performance.
I agree, I changed it.
On December 14 2011 23:01 buldermar wrote:
One could argue that it would be irresponsible of him to play a meaningless game, knowing that he had no motivation of doing so, giving an entire community a wrong impression of his current level of skill. In effect, Naniwa were put in a situation in which any act would dissapoint a fair amount of people. Yet you argue that he - not GOM - is responsible for this?
People are put into this situation all the time, but they are expected to maintain some minimal performance standard. The game clearly wasn't meaningless to GOM or they would not have had him play it. The argument is like saying that this performance would be unacceptable in any other situation except for the one that Naniwa was in. How is a company that is paid to broadcast a specific schedule of tournament games for another company responsible for forcing a player to do something that is not acceptable?
If a game is meaningless in a broadcasted tournament where the player is being paid even though they have no hope of advancing, then that means that the only meaningful games are games where a player has a chance to advance to the top spot. This makes 3rd/4th place games meaningless. It makes all practice games meaningless. Basically every game is meaningless except for single and double elimination bracket games and the grand finals. All those tie breaker games between MMA, Leenock, and Polt were all meaningless, they should have just pulled all their workers and dueled in the middle of the map right?
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On December 14 2011 23:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Probe rushing is a VALID strategy... that's why people DO IT on ladder. -_________________-
Dude it hard counter 6 pool. 7 probes > 6 drones when microed correctly. In all honesty if Nestea had the same mentality that is what would have happened.
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On December 14 2011 23:09 NHY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:04 Ertu wrote:
I'm really dissapointed by Gom for this decision. DId they punish Nestea for throwing the Blizzcon finals,where something important was actually on the line?? No. But when Naniwa doesn't want to play a group stage match with no impact whatsoever, it's hammer time. Nestea didn't throw Blizzcon final.
Right....let's be serious...joke a-move
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Before people keep bashing GOM, the new twitter update by Ethan states that Naniwa was merely being considered for the Code S spot (along with Sen/Idra I'm guessing) and that he missed his opportunity. Shouldn't we be thanking GOM for considering Naniwa in the first place?
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On December 14 2011 23:04 Mashmed wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:03 GeNeSiDe wrote:
How would you feel if you were at the biggest chess championship of the world, and two highly anticipated players were facing off only to have them suicide every one of their pieces 1 move at a time until a checkmate was inevitable? You'd be just as angry! If they played a game of chess that wouldn't give them anything that had no real meaning. Then I wouldn't watch it because there is no point.
I don't know about you, but I regularly watch show matches. I watched TLO vs MadFrog, Moon vs Sky (sc2 and wc3). I watched Boxer vs FD and Boxer vs Yellow.
And you know what I would have been annoyed if any of them played to win to an extreme but I would have been offended if any of them played to lose.
I am sure you would have felt the same.
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LOL this thread is like a gigantic kindergarden and someone just took the favorite toy away.
Hahaha y'all just mad it is a foreigner, if it was any korean player with 0-10 record behaving like madonna you would be perfectly fine with it.
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I don't like the decision. (I think something akin to my own rationale has probably been discussed exhaustively here already.)
Good luck to Naniwa in the future. Hopefully this doesn't affect his game too greatly.
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Its kind of funny. I just realized that Mr. Chae's whole foreigner exchange purpose is nullified by himself.
Imo this is great.
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On December 14 2011 23:09 Excomm wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:59 bkrow wrote:On December 14 2011 22:54 Excomm wrote:
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was the tournament format."
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was GOM."
"It wasn't Naniwa, it was the build he used."
"It wasn't Naniwa, he didn't break any rules."
"It's not just Naniwa, everyone else does the same thing."
At what point does a player need to take responsibility for their actions, ever?
This generation is in for a shock when they get fired from their job for misconduct or poor performance and they complain, "but we didn't break any rules!"
If any other player had done the same thing, they would have gotten the same punishment (possibly worse for a player on a Korean team) so there is no discrimination here. You can argue the penalty is too harsh, but stop blaming everyone else for this decision. Naniwa has no one to blame but himself. The player is free to be punished by his team. It has nothing to do with GOM since he has not broken any of their rules. The rule they are applying is ridiculous and is being inconsistently applied across the board. GOM doesn't get to decide the standard of games that players put out; Don't talk down to "this generation" because it makes you sound like a pompous ass. I can agree that the punishment should be worked out by the team and the host of the tournament. I can't argue about inconsistency because there are so few times that they have enacted this rule. You're right, but GOM does get to decide who plays in their tournament based on past performance. I agree, I changed it.
It's better that GOM handed out the punishment rather than the team he just joined. After all, it was the tournament that was upset with him, not really his team. Not sure how they felt about it.
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On December 14 2011 23:03 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:00 ClassyMcderp wrote:On December 14 2011 22:57 Kfish wrote:
Probe rush in BW against terran was viable since probes had more range and could be micro'd, there were also less workers at the beginning.
Probe rush in SC2 is useless, there is NO possible way to win the game unless your opponent is bronze, playing for the first time and doesn't know how to box his workers and a move. Fact remains, that he probe rushed isn't a valid reason for kicking him out. You can try to twist it as much as you want, it's a valid strategy EVEN if it's for bronze players. No it's not. It's as 'valid' as lifting your CC and hoping your opponent gets confused and leaves. He deserved what came to him, no matter how foreigner-biased guys try to spin it. It's in line with how Korean players have been dealt with in the past.
I guess your another Nani hater because of his act so far. I doubt you're making this judgement by this latest game, and it's a valid strategy, denying is just ridiculous.
Korean players dealt with in the past? Wtf do you mean with that, there is a large chunk of foreigners in Code S you cant deny that, and as much as we have to respect them, they have to respect us. And if this match was such a big deal, why make sure nani knows this before the game?
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Great job by GOM. It's wonderful when organizations make rules up on the fly and retroactively apply them. You know, like that one time the government arrested someone and put them in prison for something that wasn't a crime... wait...
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GomTV is playing favourites here and setting a double standard.
On December 14 2011 21:54 zanga wrote:
*Ban MC from all the (seemingly FUNNY, previously that is) things he's done. Including Thumbs down, Dancing outside the booth, Waving his finger at the camera.. and many more.
*Ban Bomber for having such a BM game against MC in some MLG (dont remember which). Putting down tons of command centers in the middle of the map, doing an "orange" with 10+ CC Scans and dropping mules so many times over.
*Ban NesTea since in the Blizzcon finals he so obviously threw his game away and was just trolling around.
*Ban Coca for match-fixing. He didnt get disqualified as far as I know - he simply left the spot because of decisions in their team. I can assume GOM would've cared, but so far had theyve said anything?
..more examples?
"Mr.Chae has announced that they made Code S seeds for a professional minded pro-gamer not for an amateur prize money hunter. It is official that Naniwa is given a punishment"
Oh yeah and probe rushing is simple cheese it's not something he can be banned for unless you want to start banning 6 pools it doesn't matter if he could have won with it or not.
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On December 14 2011 23:07 azka wrote:
After reading this, I went to gomtv site, and bought the year pass. As a customer I like they punish this behavior.
Well done GOM.
After reading this I wrote an email to GOM to cancel my year pass. Uninstalled my GOM player and plan to never watch GSL again. I unlike you don't need shallow reasons to buy passes, I buy them because I enjoy the games that are being played and have bought every pass even the GSTL pass that was $25.
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On December 14 2011 23:10 ReboundEU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:09 NHY wrote:On December 14 2011 23:04 Ertu wrote:
I'm really dissapointed by Gom for this decision. DId they punish Nestea for throwing the Blizzcon finals,where something important was actually on the line?? No. But when Naniwa doesn't want to play a group stage match with no impact whatsoever, it's hammer time. Nestea didn't throw Blizzcon final. Right....let's be serious...joke a-move
I am serious. Are you implying that Nestea fixed the outcome of the match?
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You're a mad man! This is madness!
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On December 14 2011 23:05 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 22:57 buldermar wrote:On December 14 2011 22:46 bkrow wrote:On December 14 2011 22:42 Mirror0423 wrote:On December 14 2011 22:37 bkrow wrote:
What an outrageous and ridiculous decision from GOM. Way to react to the knee-jerk responses from an online community. Naniwa said he was not in a position to play his best, so did a strategy that he thought would be quick and easy. The worst part is now GOM has set a precedent that allows them to decide how much effort a player must put in to avoid getting banned.
Was Nani's build "unethical"? Yes. Was it wrong? No. I feel that players should be able to play the way the wish - no matter if it is cheesing, probe rushing or a long macro game. As long as Nani isn't actually cheating then why should he get punished for what he did? This is a pretty stupid infringement on Nani's rights as a player Then you would approve of a player who's "mad" not leaving the game, and just building pylons all over the map delaying the inevitable since that's how he 'wants to play"? Where do you draw the line? It's better to have a vague line than no line at all imo. I don't want Naniwa staying in a game after his main is trashed and his opponent has 12 bases, while naniwa just runs around the map building pylons all over the place untill he's eliminated. If a player gets mad and builds pylons all over the map are they going to lose their Code S seed? What a ridiculous idea! The players should be able to play any way that they like; if it impacts the players image negatively he will suffer the consequences. It is not necessary for GOM to get involved.. at all. This. The issue is that GOM made the decision of letting this situation arise in the first place. It's so easy to have some value to all matches that I'm left wondering what logic is behind the decision of intentionally letting a tournament - with many of the best players in the world - have a structure with certain matches being for neither seating, nor money. This, alone, regardless of Naniwa throwing a game or not, has to be changed. There is absolutely no reason to ever put a progamer in a situation in which he is forced to play a game for nothing, allowing for the possibility of him not being motivated to do so, yet forced to play the game to partly hide his lack of motivation. This calls for yet another question: Can you fault a progamer for not being fully motivated to play a game for nothing other than "the game itself"? 'Not being fully motivated' isn't the issue. We all understand that in matches like this players generally won't play their best. However, acting like a 12-yo princess isn't the same thing. All the sports analogies are nice and all, but in those cases the team actually shows up to play the full game instead of staying home to drink beer. Progamers claim to play this game for 40 hours a week anyhow. So you hang around for another 20 minutes, give a lackluster performance doing something you're planning on doing later that day at home anyhow, and complain about the tournament format afterwards either in public or in private. As a player you do have a responsibility to not only your own team and your own sponsors, but also to the tournament and the sponsors that are supporting them, and to your opponent and the sponsors that are support him. By throwing games away you're screwing all of them over Naniwa should know his place in the 'larger' picture.
I assume you would argue that a progamer quitting a game too early or doing something silly on the ladder should also receive a punishment, then, seing that ladder status actually DO guarantee spots to certain tournaments?
Clearly, if Naniwa had a nice build prepared for NesTea, he would keep it for another time where it matters. In effect, a game would not be showing skilllevel. Playing a game in front of so many people that doesn't show your skilllevel and doesn't mean anything is also screweing over a bunch of people.
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I feel sad for Naniwa. I support that GOM had to do something. Not sure if it had to be his potential code S spot. Hope GOM will make an official statement soon ~
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On December 14 2011 23:09 Benjef wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:08 ShootingStars wrote:
Probe rushing is a VALID strategy... that's why people DO IT on ladder. -_________________- Dude it hard counter 6 pool. 7 probes > 6 drones when microed correctly. In all honesty if Nestea had the same mentality that is what would have happened.
Im sure im too late already but you're wrong.
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On December 14 2011 23:07 oxxo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 23:05 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
1. “During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours “ (GOM TV rule)
How many times have we seen manner mules, manner celebrations, or other semi-BM tactics that completely override this rule? It certainly doesn't make the loser *feel good*. And no one ever gets punished for them, because it's part of the game. People need thicker skin. So you're offended. Grab a tissue. So you paid money and wanted to watch Nestea vs. Naniwa? Well tough luck, because you apparently thought...
2. Every match needs to be played out no matter what?
Since when? Over the course of BW and SC2, how many times have we seen matches get crossed off the playing list because they're irrelevant to who moves on? Too many to keep count. The Nestea vs. Naniwa game shouldn't have been played at all, because there undoubtedly would have been "Oh Player X didn't try because the game didn't count, which is why he lost the game," regardless of how epic the game was. It's hardly Naniwa's fault for not caring about a game that didn't count towards the progression of the tournament. He played to win, not to make friends. And how many times have we seen a best of seven turn into four straight boring games of one-sided roflstomps? It sucks. I would have liked Nestea and Naniwa to do better than 0-3 in their bracket, but they didn't, so they got knocked out after three games. They tried, but they didn't do well this time around.
3. Naniwa isn't Code S/ pro-gamer material.
This just astonishes me. He moved to Korea, worked his ass off in every single game that mattered, and takes his job extremely seriously. Just to reiterate for emphasis, he frickin moved to Korea for this. He's not cuddly and the best-mannered guy in the business, but he's damn focused and cares about succeeding. It's ridiculous that he arbitrarily loses his Code S spot because some people are angry at him. The rules were vague and he got screwed because people don't like him. If Huk did this, you better believe nothing would have happened to him. 1) Manner mules/nexus are not abusive. 2) Every professional sport requires a match to be played out. People always talk about 'Esports' but then refuse to act like professionals when they don't feel like it. 3) What does moving to Korea have to do with anything? Nothing.
1) Slashing a throat is? Middle finger?
2) Human condition? Respect that and dont tell players to play when they dont want/ are not in condition. He already played out what he needed to (3 matches).
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This is ridiculous, I'm selling my apartment, will quit my job, fire my girlfriend and live on the streets.
In other news I'll be getting a GSL ticket because I wanna see Idra. ~ I'm still amused about those who yesterday said this wouldn't have consequences - it did, but only for Nani. The amount of people who will not subscribe to GSL anymore should be neglectable. And to those who compare GOM to KeSPA - I doubt he'd have gotten away that quickly in BW.
In the end we watch GSL to see high level play and -regardless of his attitude- Naniwa hasn't been in his best form recently anyway so this is not the end of the world by any means.
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EPT
