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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 21:07 Nadarath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:02 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:59 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:49 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:46 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:45 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Shortynut wrote:
[quote]
a probe rush actually has a chance of winning too, it's much much smaller but it IS a strategy, the problem people are having is that he did it under the circumstances of the competition (down 0-3 playing to stay out of last place in the group), that and he decided not to give viewers what they actually wanted, which was a rematch to settle the heat.
it's that he said he did it to throw the game. Yes but MooMoo is saying that worker rush has a zero percent chance of winning a game, which is wrong. 0% against 6 pool. Given any skill level? Yeah, no. Given if you're opponent is either Bronze or has no pulse, NesTea is neither Alright let's bring the BlizzCon finals into this. NesTea creates a ton of broodlords and nothing else when MVP has mass ghosts, many vikings, and marines. Zero percent chance of winning that engagement, should NesTea be reprimanded? If you argue "well it's not the GSL" then there goes the argument for "professionalizing eSports" because there will be no set standard. Well thats a entirely different thing. For that match it meant the difference between 1st and 2nd place and almost twice the price money for first. You cant compare that match with the one Naniwa played against NesTea which was a consolation match. Also that game was strange by itself. Who knew what NesTea was thinking? Maybe he thought he units somewhere on the map but they were killed? There was no real proof that NesTea threw the game unlike Naniwa who stated clearly he threw the game on his Twitter. Prize money doesn't matter. According to professionalism you're supposed to be trying your hardest in every match regardless of reward. That's what makes it comparable. Like I said in another post, pros have said that a bronze leaguer could make a better choice in that point of time when it comes to making the broodlords, it's the same decision making as Naniwa deciding to worker rush. The only difference is that Naniwa explicitly stated that he threw the game, if he said "well I thought it would work" there would be no argument against him when compared to NesTea's throw at Blizzcon I suppose Idra should not play in Code S then too - since he does not play to the fullest in games that does not matter. Actually lets remove 50% of Code S players for doing that aswell. And i would start from Nestea who did same shit vs HuK or MVP. I gues Koreans got different interpretation f rules for them selves and different one for ppl outside of Korea. WHOLE SITUATION IS JUST HYPOCRISY FROM GOM AND KOREANS. I really cant stand how awfull thoes ppl are. 2 sets of standards and denying that they made a mistake. It is really last time when i watch Code S or support GoM in any way or form. Until they admit they made mistake by allowing that game to happen in first place.
By your same reasoning the PLAYERS should also disagree to the rules and refuse to play. Because they, by playing, are complicit to GOMTV ruleset.
If no players agree to play, then no SC2 tourney exists. It's that simple.
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I don't agree with gom. I still love them but I am not going to watch/purchase Season 1.
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On December 14 2011 21:09 Keidy wrote:
This is so wrong
The argument that the korean culture is like this is fine, if they are living by their own rules.
But how can they do this to Nani saying his behaviour was unproffessional, when GSL themselves are beeing soooooo fucking unproffessional when they call him "amateur money hunter"
So much for the korean culter.
Terrible decision, and I have no respect for GSL/Korea atm
For anyone who has an idea of how the bw team were formed 10 years ago, I'm pretty sure it does not come as a surprise.
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I guess that GOM just lost a lot of viewers! Stupid decisions from both nani and GOM.
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On December 14 2011 21:10 Lokj wrote:
Wouldn't it have been a better solution to keep his prizemoney (from the Blizzard Cup, 840$ for 7th - 10th) and just let him play his Code S seed? This will surely dampen his competitive spirit.
Competitive spirit is a funny thing to mention when you throw a game on purpose. Even if it doesn't win you anything to actually win the game.
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"Naniwa played a game yesterday that is not professional. I have heard that he threw away the game because it doesn't benefit himself. I want to lecture him. Pro-gamer as an occupation is not a job where you just play games between other pro players. Corporations sponsor us because the existence of fans make e-sports a product that we are trying to create. But I believe the behaviour from Naniwa yesterday was such a behaviour that betrayed and looked down on the fans. I hope he thinks about what he did and do not play a game like that again."
From MC
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this issue is about context. you have to see what Naniwa was doing in the games previously to see why he quit.
I think esports is *much* better to have highly strung very emotionally charged players who put everything on the line or quit in annoyance with themselves.
if you want the absolute best in a sport you have to stop putting them in boxes and trying to shoe-horn them into neat little rules and lifestyles. the true greats operate without limits.
In sports such as snooker, football & tennis we've had amazing luminaries such as alex higgins, george best, maradona & john mcenroe. They broke the rules but had the world in the palm of their hands.
I hope there is a world SC competition that is mature enough to attract the very best players whether its in Korea or not.
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On December 14 2011 21:00 pezit wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:56 xBillehx wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 Parcelleus wrote:
Might be time to follow BW.
SC2 scene just became a joke. What's really funny about this is anyone who has been following BW for a while knows KeSPA would have banned Naniwa permanently for throwing a game. Yeah and they also disqualified a player for typing pp instead of ppp when he wanted to pause, koreans culture is clearly... different, and by different I mean fucking retarded. User was warned for this post
hahaha WOW really? They banned a guy for typing a p less then was allowed? Koreans are a bit crazy I think.
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On December 14 2011 21:10 Ponchey wrote:
I wish Naniwa would have played that game, for the sake of his image. I can not understand this decision by GOM though. The rule they stated feels to fit very vaguely to the event in question. Even if his actions were considered "abusive", doesn't "warning or disqualification" mean in the current tournament played? It feels like GOM is punishing Naniwa for previous "offenses".
And the statement of Naniwa being an "amateur prize money hunter", feels much more abusive and very, very disrespectful.
Of course it's disrespectful.
As a childish and immature player, he deserves it though.
A lot of people are saying it's 'just because it's Naniwa' but if anything, looking at previous actions, it's clear that they are pretty much consistent about this.
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I would do the same, if i was playing 3 games that was very close for me to win, and then i know im out.. why and from where would i get my motivation to win a meaningless game?.. And why dont GOM just tell the players before what happens if they do stuff like that.. AND no im not saying this because im from Sweden... just saying this because i think its just so shitty by GOM..
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I cannot even begin do describe my disappointment with gom for doing this. It rubs me the wrong way for SO many different reasons. And I'm not even going to go into the whole "Was Naniwa right or wrong" debate.
1. The punishment is WAY to harsh. He earned that Code S spot fair and square. Sure, take a away his price money from the Blizzard Cup and give him a warning, but Code S is a totally different event, and should not be affected by this.
2. To make the GSL even more of a farce, they just randomly invites Sen to Code S? What has he done to deserve that? I did not realize that professional Starcraft was a popularity contest, but as of late it sure seems like it is. What about all the players in Korea working their asses off dreaming to play in Code S, and Gom just randomly gives people free invites to foreigner on a whim. At least have the decency to hold some sort of qualifier to that Code S spot if you necessarily have to go and ban people.
3. The "rule" that they are referring to that Naniwa supposedly broke (- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours), is the most vague thing I have ever seen, and could be used for banning any player, at any time, should Gom feel like it. This is not a professional way to go about things. If you are going to punish someone, at least give a good fucking reason to do so.
Sigh. I don't want to rant any more, but I just thought that GomTV would be more professional than this. They had the perfect opportunity to take the high road, and show everyone that they don't care about pointless drama, but instead they chose to abuse their power and take it down to a lower level than I even thought possible. Good job making professional starcraft a farce.
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On December 14 2011 21:07 dormer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:05 Mouzone wrote:
My theory: GOM were holding a grudge against Naniwa for some reason (I guess it's kinda easy to do that since Naniwa isn't always a very likeable individual) - they saw an opportunity to "get rid of him" - and boom. To say the least, Naniwa doesn't really fit in on the whole asian honor, pride and respect ideals, I believe he was considered a player unpredictable and out of control which is a nightmare for any control freak corporations.
Now that I think of it, it's likely this "grudge" stems from the whole Nestea ordeal during MLG seeing as Nestea is their korean sweetie and all. No way the punishment would be the same for someone who otherwise comes off as respectful and likeable. Naniwa just got stabbed in the back. I don't know, Huk tweeted that if it were a Korean they'd probably have been perma banned and kicked out of their team house, etc. Don't know if that's true since it's all hypothetical, and I don't think a Korean would have done it to begin with, but eh.
Huk also admitted to throwing his mlg match a while back so it is hypocritical.
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On December 14 2011 21:10 Sakray wrote:
Well, IdrA got the S-spot of Naniwa, but why Sen got one ? He hasn't scored good result at MLG, right ?
GOMTV needs a way to get people to watch with NaNiwa being kicked out. Sen is the answer.
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On December 14 2011 21:07 Nadarath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:02 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:59 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:49 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:46 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:45 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Shortynut wrote:
[quote]
a probe rush actually has a chance of winning too, it's much much smaller but it IS a strategy, the problem people are having is that he did it under the circumstances of the competition (down 0-3 playing to stay out of last place in the group), that and he decided not to give viewers what they actually wanted, which was a rematch to settle the heat.
it's that he said he did it to throw the game. Yes but MooMoo is saying that worker rush has a zero percent chance of winning a game, which is wrong. 0% against 6 pool. Given any skill level? Yeah, no. Given if you're opponent is either Bronze or has no pulse, NesTea is neither Alright let's bring the BlizzCon finals into this. NesTea creates a ton of broodlords and nothing else when MVP has mass ghosts, many vikings, and marines. Zero percent chance of winning that engagement, should NesTea be reprimanded? If you argue "well it's not the GSL" then there goes the argument for "professionalizing eSports" because there will be no set standard. Well thats a entirely different thing. For that match it meant the difference between 1st and 2nd place and almost twice the price money for first. You cant compare that match with the one Naniwa played against NesTea which was a consolation match. Also that game was strange by itself. Who knew what NesTea was thinking? Maybe he thought he units somewhere on the map but they were killed? There was no real proof that NesTea threw the game unlike Naniwa who stated clearly he threw the game on his Twitter. Prize money doesn't matter. According to professionalism you're supposed to be trying your hardest in every match regardless of reward. That's what makes it comparable. Like I said in another post, pros have said that a bronze leaguer could make a better choice in that point of time when it comes to making the broodlords, it's the same decision making as Naniwa deciding to worker rush. The only difference is that Naniwa explicitly stated that he threw the game, if he said "well I thought it would work" there would be no argument against him when compared to NesTea's throw at Blizzcon I suppose Idra should not play in Code S then too - since he does not play to the fullest in games that does not matter. Actually lets remove 50% of Code S players for doing that aswell. And i would start from Nestea who did same shit vs HuK or MVP. I gues Koreans got different interpretation f rules for them selves and different one for ppl outside of Korea. WHOLE SITUATION IS JUST HYPOCRISY FROM GOM AND KOREANS. I really cant stand how awfull thoes ppl are. 2 sets of standards and denying that they made a mistake. It is really last time when i watch Code S or support GoM in any way or form. Until they admit they made mistake by allowing that game to happen in first place.
I feel the same. Until they admit they made a mistake and clarify their rules I'm out of this swamp.
I'll support MLG wholeheartedly instead.
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On December 14 2011 21:08 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:06 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 21:02 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:59 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:49 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:46 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:45 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Vari wrote:
[quote]
it's that he said he did it to throw the game. Yes but MooMoo is saying that worker rush has a zero percent chance of winning a game, which is wrong. 0% against 6 pool. Given any skill level? Yeah, no. Given if you're opponent is either Bronze or has no pulse, NesTea is neither Alright let's bring the BlizzCon finals into this. NesTea creates a ton of broodlords and nothing else when MVP has mass ghosts, many vikings, and marines. Zero percent chance of winning that engagement, should NesTea be reprimanded? If you argue "well it's not the GSL" then there goes the argument for "professionalizing eSports" because there will be no set standard. Well thats a entirely different thing. For that match it meant the difference between 1st and 2nd place and almost twice the price money for first. You cant compare that match with the one Naniwa played against NesTea which was a consolation match. Also that game was strange by itself. Who knew what NesTea was thinking? Maybe he thought he units somewhere on the map but they were killed? There was no real proof that NesTea threw the game unlike Naniwa who stated clearly he threw the game on his Twitter. Prize money doesn't matter. According to professionalism you're supposed to be trying your hardest in every match regardless of reward. That's what makes it comparable. Like I said in another post, pros have said that a bronze leaguer could make a better choice in that point of time when it comes to making the broodlords, it's the same decision making as Naniwa deciding to worker rush. The only difference is that Naniwa explicitly stated that he threw the game, if he said "well I thought it would work" there would be no argument against him when compared to NesTea's throw at Blizzcon Theres a difference between going into a game with a mindset of losing and also commiting to a strategy that will lose for sure than making a brain-fart decision mistake late-game(which may or may not have happened or plainly NesTea thought he was going to lose anyway). They're both results of bad decision making. NaNiwa made a bad decision to worker rush as a strategy NesTea made a bad decision to make a ton of broodlords and nothing else when the opponent all the counters to the unit There is something to be said about entering the game with a losing mindset, but you wouldn't know it was there unless NaNiwa told you " I intended to lose that game".
From Naniwa's twitter:
"people are so mad i probe rushed nestea in a pointless game. it couldnt change anything in the tournament"
"neither of us had anything at stake and wouldnt play our best. sorry fans that expected more"
Naniwa choosing to probe rush was a bad decision? lol
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On December 14 2011 21:10 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:04 trucane wrote:
Oh and btw why would they invite idra when he has thrown every consolation match in MLG so far? And those have even had some money on the line compared to this game that had no money on the line at all He hasn't thrown them, he forfeit them, which is allowed.
Except that Naniwa wanted to forfeit the game but wasn't allowed to. Also it's clearly about the mentaility of the korean honor culture. Giving up is clearly not ok
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this is a freakin joke
what a ridicolously retarded decision by GSL
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My respect for gom has increased so much. I guess i am going to buy HQ pass now,even though my university firewall does not give me the access :D
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On December 14 2011 21:09 deth wrote:
i honestly dont know why so many people are trying to defend naniwa.
GSL is a business, naniwa is paid to play the tournament and is expected to act like a professional sportsman, especially important if he is to be playing professionally in korea.
People pay to watch GSL, the maps and games were determined beforehand. Even if the game was pointless, so many people wanted to see Naniwa vs Nestea as its just a great matchup, especially with the rivalry. Then naniwa throws it and disappoints everyone who paid for the season pass, despite nani getting guaranteed prize money from the tourney.
At the very least you owe it to your fans to play the game, even if you have no motivation for doing so. Everyone arguing otherwise needs to shove away their internet pitchforks and think about it from GSL's point of view.
Few people are defending naniwa; most are upset with GSL's ridiculous, ambiguous, and over the top reaction.
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Pretty harsh.
Should have just 4 gated or proxy gated and nobody would have said shit about it.
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EPT
