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While I understand that there's a need to discuss this matter, this thread has way too many trash posts in it. Please think carefully about what you want to say. Ad hominem attacks on Swedish people in general, calling you fellow Starcraft fans idiots etc etc will be dealt with with harsher punishment from here on out. Keep it civil people.
Page 230: Here's some more stuff that'll get you banned!
- Conspiracy theory mongering about MLG and GOM
- Comparing people to Hitler
- Posting useless one liners of arguments that have already been repeated ad nauseum. |
On December 14 2011 21:05 Mouzone wrote:
My theory: GOM were holding a grudge against Naniwa for some reason (I guess it's kinda easy to do that since Naniwa isn't always a very likeable individual) - they saw an opportunity to "get rid of him" - and boom. To say the least, Naniwa doesn't really fit in on the whole asian honor, pride and respect ideals, I believe he was considered a player unpredictable and out of control which is a nightmare for any control freak corporations.
Now that I think of it, it's likely this "grudge" stems from the whole Nestea ordeal during MLG seeing as Nestea is their korean sweetie and all. No way the punishment would be the same for someone who otherwise comes off as respectful and likeable. Naniwa just got stabbed in the back.
I think if there was collusion to screw him it would more likely be mlg admins after his display there tbh.
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On December 14 2011 21:04 Vandalman wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:00 Vardant wrote:On December 14 2011 20:58 KaiJa wrote:
For someone that actually PAYS for my SC2 content I'm glad they revoked his spot. Why on earth would I PAY to see a probe rush? Are some of the people in this thread really that daft. You're a Naniwa or Nestea sponsor? Otherwise, you're not paying them to do anything. They're not your puppets. You think Nani would be getting paid if no one watched e-sports?? What are you talking about? The only reason there are sponsors is because people watch.....Please tell me you just mistyped something.
He plays to get payed, you don't pay him to play, there is a clear difference.
If the pro's in "e-sports" were actual pro's, they would be getting paid for every match and they would have a signed contract, that would state, they have to play. That's not the case.
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On December 14 2011 21:02 ptrpb wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 20:59 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:49 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:46 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:45 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Shortynut wrote:On December 14 2011 20:30 MooMooMugi wrote:
I think you are confusing a probe rush with a 6 pool. A 6 pool is a strategy that actually has a chance of winning no matter how small it is. Not to mention 6-pool is actually a good strategy on Tal'Darim Alter lol.. a probe rush actually has a chance of winning too, it's much much smaller but it IS a strategy, the problem people are having is that he did it under the circumstances of the competition (down 0-3 playing to stay out of last place in the group), that and he decided not to give viewers what they actually wanted, which was a rematch to settle the heat. it's that he said he did it to throw the game. Yes but MooMoo is saying that worker rush has a zero percent chance of winning a game, which is wrong. 0% against 6 pool. Given any skill level? Yeah, no. Given if you're opponent is either Bronze or has no pulse, NesTea is neither Alright let's bring the BlizzCon finals into this. NesTea creates a ton of broodlords and nothing else when MVP has mass ghosts, many vikings, and marines. Zero percent chance of winning that engagement, should NesTea be reprimanded? If you argue "well it's not the GSL" then there goes the argument for "professionalizing eSports" because there will be no set standard. Well thats a entirely different thing. For that match it meant the difference between 1st and 2nd place and almost twice the price money for first. You cant compare that match with the one Naniwa played against NesTea which was a consolation match. Also that game was strange by itself. Who knew what NesTea was thinking? Maybe he thought he units somewhere on the map but they were killed? There was no real proof that NesTea threw the game unlike Naniwa who stated clearly he threw the game on his Twitter. Prize money doesn't matter. According to professionalism you're supposed to be trying your hardest in every match regardless of reward. That's what makes it comparable. Like I said in another post, pros have said that a bronze leaguer could make a better choice in that point of time when it comes to making the broodlords, it's the same decision making as Naniwa deciding to worker rush. The only difference is that Naniwa explicitly stated that he threw the game, if he said "well I thought it would work" there would be no argument against him when compared to NesTea's throw at Blizzcon
I suppose Idra should not play in Code S then too - since he does not play to the fullest in games that does not matter.
Actually lets remove 50% of Code S players for doing that aswell. And i would start from Nestea who did same shit vs HuK or MVP. I gues Koreans got different interpretation f rules for them selves and different one for ppl outside of Korea.
WHOLE SITUATION IS JUST HYPOCRISY FROM GOM AND KOREANS.
I really cant stand how awfull thoes ppl are. 2 sets of standards and denying that they made a mistake.
It is really last time when i watch Code S or support GoM in any way or form. Until they admit they made mistake by allowing that game to happen in first place.
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On December 14 2011 21:05 Mouzone wrote:
My theory: GOM were holding a grudge against Naniwa for some reason (I guess it's kinda easy to do that since Naniwa isn't always a very likeable individual) - they saw an opportunity to "get rid of him" - and boom. To say the least, Naniwa doesn't really fit in on the whole asian honor, pride and respect ideals, I believe he was considered a player unpredictable and out of control which is a nightmare for any control freak corporations.
Now that I think of it, it's likely this "grudge" stems from the whole Nestea ordeal during MLG seeing as Nestea is their korean sweetie and all. No way the punishment would be the same for someone who otherwise comes off as respectful and likeable. Naniwa just got stabbed in the back.
I don't know, Huk tweeted that if it were a Korean they'd probably have been perma banned and kicked out of their team house, etc. Don't know if that's true since it's all hypothetical, and I don't think a Korean would have done it to begin with, but eh.
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On December 14 2011 21:04 pookadin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:02 ToasteR_ wrote:
Looks like this is the first season of GSL I won't be buying, probably won't purchase a season ticket any more. Way to go GOM... You act like GOMTV made the choice for you to not buy the ticket and now you are deprived. You made that choice youself. If you buy to see one player then dont you get upset everytime he loses in the first round and you dont get to see him again for more than a month 
I don't buy to see one player I buy because it was the highest level tourney around. But after this over reaction and "sponsor seeds" which are incredibly stupid and just a way for more foreign views the GSL just doesnt seem as legit anymore.
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On December 14 2011 21:06 MooMooMugi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:02 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:59 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:49 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:46 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:45 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Shortynut wrote:
[quote]
a probe rush actually has a chance of winning too, it's much much smaller but it IS a strategy, the problem people are having is that he did it under the circumstances of the competition (down 0-3 playing to stay out of last place in the group), that and he decided not to give viewers what they actually wanted, which was a rematch to settle the heat.
it's that he said he did it to throw the game. Yes but MooMoo is saying that worker rush has a zero percent chance of winning a game, which is wrong. 0% against 6 pool. Given any skill level? Yeah, no. Given if you're opponent is either Bronze or has no pulse, NesTea is neither Alright let's bring the BlizzCon finals into this. NesTea creates a ton of broodlords and nothing else when MVP has mass ghosts, many vikings, and marines. Zero percent chance of winning that engagement, should NesTea be reprimanded? If you argue "well it's not the GSL" then there goes the argument for "professionalizing eSports" because there will be no set standard. Well thats a entirely different thing. For that match it meant the difference between 1st and 2nd place and almost twice the price money for first. You cant compare that match with the one Naniwa played against NesTea which was a consolation match. Also that game was strange by itself. Who knew what NesTea was thinking? Maybe he thought he units somewhere on the map but they were killed? There was no real proof that NesTea threw the game unlike Naniwa who stated clearly he threw the game on his Twitter. Prize money doesn't matter. According to professionalism you're supposed to be trying your hardest in every match regardless of reward. That's what makes it comparable. Like I said in another post, pros have said that a bronze leaguer could make a better choice in that point of time when it comes to making the broodlords, it's the same decision making as Naniwa deciding to worker rush. The only difference is that Naniwa explicitly stated that he threw the game, if he said "well I thought it would work" there would be no argument against him when compared to NesTea's throw at Blizzcon Theres a difference between going into a game with a mindset of losing and also commiting to a strategy that will lose for sure than making a brain-fart decision mistake late-game(which may or may not have happened or plainly NesTea thought he was going to lose anyway).
They're both results of bad decision making.
NaNiwa made a bad decision to worker rush as a strategy
NesTea made a bad decision to make a ton of broodlords and nothing else when the opponent all the counters to the unit
There is something to be said about entering the game with a losing mindset, but you wouldn't know it was there unless NaNiwa told you "I intended to lose that game", which he did.
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On December 14 2011 21:05 (Max 20 chars) wrote:
So after reading the rule:
"During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
I think Quantic should sue GOM as it is the normal way to procceed. This is business and it's about a lot of money. Just imagine a league in non-e-sports did that to a player/team. No one would just accept that on a rule like this but fight for his rights.
There are definitions of offense in law. People can't just make up anything they want - just because they say they felt offended by it. Naniwas match wasn't anything close to an offense towards anyone.
That ruling should get crushed by any court easily.
You do know that Gom reserves to right to define abuse to a definition they see fit right?
You do know that definition probably gives Quantic a next to zero percent change of winning the court case too?
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On December 14 2011 21:04 SaGe] wrote:
fuck really wanted to see naniwa play next season...
I guess that's 1 minute less of NaNiwa you'll see...
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What GOMTV is doing now is telling the esport world that they decide what is disrespectful and not. If MC builds a nexus in naniwas main, or if a terran drops mules etc, a player from sweden, the USA etc can take offence and see it as very disrespectful. Is GOMTV then to go and say, nope that was not disrespectful at all, you are just abit touchy. But if you probe rush then thats horrible and you get kicked from CodeS?
its just such a doublestandard that its scary.
And I dont understand all people talking about the freaking game. If they would have played it, nobody would have cared. all people would have done was to state that the game did not say anything, it was pointless due to the lack of motivation and you can not draw anything from it. Hell even if it was a good game alot of people would have said that it only was due to neastea not trying 110% so taht naniwa stood a chance or vice verse etc.
People get provoced and therefor claim that they really really really wanted to see this game when in fact it was probably not that important at all. And neaste and all the poor fans are so hurt now and feel robbed and molested etc.
Jeez!!
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Well, I just hope the players stand up because this kind of bullshit with giving or taking away invites can´t happen because Mr. Chae wakes up in a bad mood.
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On December 14 2011 20:55 Saraf wrote:
I'd rather see GOM hand out a fine for it (or something) instead of kicking him out of GSL January 2012. Obviously Naniwa fucked up and GOM has to punish him but I think the punishment was too harsh, especially when the Blizzard Cup group format allowed the situation to evolve (not blaming GOM but it's a problem they should address).
shrug - and if Naniwa refuses to pay said fine? it doesn't solve a thing. Naniwa as we know and love, is a bad boy and simply isn't beholden to all the same rules that the rest of us would be. he challenges things as they are, and that's something that many of us would probably be wise to learn from.
Again it's just GSL Jan. There's still future GSL's, MLG's and so on. There will be lots more tourneys which will feed on the hype that we viewers are instrumental in generating.
If you really think about it, it's excellent press for Naniwa. What he did was an extremely smart maneuver well worth far more than any GSL prize pool for long term success. The bad boy image needs to be cultivated, but also maintained in order for it to last.
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I think GOM did wrong. They have a bad system and if Naniwa want to "throw away" a game that should be his loss in that tournament. I don't understand their decision at all :S
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On December 14 2011 21:07 Nadarath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:02 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:59 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:52 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:49 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:46 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:45 MooMooMugi wrote:On December 14 2011 20:44 ptrpb wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:43 Shortynut wrote:
[quote]
a probe rush actually has a chance of winning too, it's much much smaller but it IS a strategy, the problem people are having is that he did it under the circumstances of the competition (down 0-3 playing to stay out of last place in the group), that and he decided not to give viewers what they actually wanted, which was a rematch to settle the heat.
it's that he said he did it to throw the game. Yes but MooMoo is saying that worker rush has a zero percent chance of winning a game, which is wrong. 0% against 6 pool. Given any skill level? Yeah, no. Given if you're opponent is either Bronze or has no pulse, NesTea is neither Alright let's bring the BlizzCon finals into this. NesTea creates a ton of broodlords and nothing else when MVP has mass ghosts, many vikings, and marines. Zero percent chance of winning that engagement, should NesTea be reprimanded? If you argue "well it's not the GSL" then there goes the argument for "professionalizing eSports" because there will be no set standard. Well thats a entirely different thing. For that match it meant the difference between 1st and 2nd place and almost twice the price money for first. You cant compare that match with the one Naniwa played against NesTea which was a consolation match. Also that game was strange by itself. Who knew what NesTea was thinking? Maybe he thought he units somewhere on the map but they were killed? There was no real proof that NesTea threw the game unlike Naniwa who stated clearly he threw the game on his Twitter. Prize money doesn't matter. According to professionalism you're supposed to be trying your hardest in every match regardless of reward. That's what makes it comparable. Like I said in another post, pros have said that a bronze leaguer could make a better choice in that point of time when it comes to making the broodlords, it's the same decision making as Naniwa deciding to worker rush. The only difference is that Naniwa explicitly stated that he threw the game, if he said "well I thought it would work" there would be no argument against him when compared to NesTea's throw at Blizzcon I suppose Idra should not play in Code S then too - since he does not play to the fullest in games that does not matter. Actually lets remove 50% of Code S players for doing that aswell. And i would start from Nestea who did same shit vs HuK or MVP. I gues Koreans got different interpretation f rules for them selves and different one for ppl outside of Korea. WHOLE SITUATION IS JUST HYPOCRISY FROM GOM AND KOREANS. I really cant stand how awfull thoes ppl are. 2 sets of standards and denying that they made a mistake. It is really last time when i watch Code S or support GoM in any way or form. Until they admit they made mistake by allowing that game to happen in first place.
if you see no difference in playing a game and not performing your best and blatantly throwing a game and saying you did it you're blind
he was just so BLATANT about the whole thing. didn't even pretend to give a shit.
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Just a few days before in an interview, Naniwa said he didn't like practicing in MVP house because players didn't want to play him and when they did they didn't play seriously. What he does to make himself a pleasant practice partener and try to integrate in team house ? Doesn't play seriously in a big televised tournament :D
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On December 14 2011 21:06 ander wrote:
The fact is there is no rule that isn't incredibly ambiguous and open for completely interpretation.
Exactly. THAT is why GOMTV overreacted in a stupid fashion.....
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On December 14 2011 21:05 TheExile19 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:04 DrGreen wrote:
"- During a match, a player shall not offend the opponent or audience with abusive behaviours"
WHAT? WHAT? .... WHAT? They should ban all the bitbybits and 1 base play as well.
I'm not gonna watch GSL January for sure, and I hope more ppl will join "Boycott GSL" in 2012 1 base play = worker rush people. you fuckin' heard it here, because 1 base play also has a zero win rate just like worker rushing so it's an amazing analogy.
You did not get his point at all. 111 and marine scv all-ins might offend the audience with abusive behaviours just like Naniwa's "strat".
BTW when he said he threw the game wasn't during a match, to this rule should not be applied on that part.
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On December 14 2011 21:01 Headnoob wrote:
people need to take off the foreigner goggles, they're worse than nostalgia goggles when it comes to starcraft 2
I for some reason read that as giggles, I giggled.
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On December 14 2011 21:07 XRaDiiX wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:05 Mouzone wrote:
My theory: GOM were holding a grudge against Naniwa for some reason (I guess it's kinda easy to do that since Naniwa isn't always a very likeable individual) - they saw an opportunity to "get rid of him" - and boom. To say the least, Naniwa doesn't really fit in on the whole asian honor, pride and respect ideals, I believe he was considered a player unpredictable and out of control which is a nightmare for any control freak corporations.
Now that I think of it, it's likely this "grudge" stems from the whole Nestea ordeal during MLG seeing as Nestea is their korean sweetie and all. No way the punishment would be the same for someone who otherwise comes off as respectful and likeable. Naniwa just got stabbed in the back. It makes sense IMO. I hate to say it but I think that the Koreans were kind-of offended that they would cringe at the thought of him winning the GSL. After all the Koreans seemed really offended from their twitter responses. So if Naniwa won Code S they would be Shamed
Yeah, they were really scared the player with the 0-10 record in GSL was going to win Code S. They were shaking in their boots at the thought!!!!! LMFAO!!
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This is so wrong
The argument that the korean culture is like this is fine, if they are living by their own rules.
But how can they do this to Nani saying his behaviour was unproffessional, when GSL themselves are beeing soooooo fucking unproffessional when they call him "amateur money hunter"
So much for the korean culter.
Terrible decision, and I have no respect for GSL/Korea atm
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On December 14 2011 21:05 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 21:02 ander wrote:On December 14 2011 20:59 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:57 nimdil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:41 Vari wrote:On December 14 2011 20:39 nimdil wrote:On December 14 2011 20:35 ander wrote:
Yeah man, i agree with GOM, lets revoke Code-S status to players who use silly strategies in games and fall back on our incredibly vague rulebook that can be interpreted infinitely; especially if you aren't in tune with Korean culture despite the moniker "Global Starcraft League" In my eyes GSL is no more. It's obviously GomTV Korean Starcraft League so KSL which just happens to be top level SC2 league. What a joke. this is pathetic you pretend naniwa didn't do something that bothered people so you can cling to some idea of racism ...when they replaced him with non korean That's stupid. I'm not accusing them of racism or anything. For me it just seems that they made a decision based on some cultural shinanigans, not on rules. but it is in the rules and it is also their culture. in their country and their company and their tournament. calling it the korean star league as an insult is ridiculous and does make it seem like you're accusing them of racism. Please, link me to the rule that says "worker rushing is not allowed and is punishable by suspension." It's completely arbitrary. Naniwa didn't act as he did because he thought that he would receive backlash. He didn't act the way he did to specifically piss off Koreans. you've seen the rule already I'm sure and worker rushing isn't banned. but you already know this. it's not completely arbitrary but it leaves room for the interpretation of the people running the league, just like many rules in many competitions.
You didn't address my post. Link me the rule.
Ambiguity is contrary to what rules should be. If you're vaguely familiar with sport or law you would know this.
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EPT
